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Pokemon Competitive Metagame Discussion

Discussion in 'Past Pokémon Generations Discussion' started by Gen. Empoleon, May 24, 2009.

  1. Gen. Empoleon

    Gen. Empoleon Parasect-sect

    Well there seems a lack of this kind of conversation around these parts, so I thought I might as well just make a thread about it.

    Might as well start off by saying that Rotom-a is very helpful in this metagame by being a wonderful anti-spin and as good a Scizor counter as you can get. On top of that Scizor has actually dethroned the #1 overused pokemon, Salamence, who was considered being broken at one point in time.
     
  2. Addie

    Addie (•✖•)

    Way to make a ton of discussion, Gen.

    Anyway, Heatran has died down incredibly since it's prime time, as nearly every special wall counters it, like Tyranitar, Snorlax, Blissey, and even stuff like Gyarados takes it. It isn't even a good anti-metagame Pokemon any more, due to the "switch out" abilities Scizor has. Gengar is another Pokemon like this, but its usage is slowly coming back thanks to the wave of Hidden Power Fire + Substitute + Shadow Ball + Focus Blast Gengars that can actually handle Scizor!

    On the subject of Rotom-A, Vaporeon is really helpful with it. It can pass Wish and the Electric-type moves aimed at it go straight to Rotom, who can easily tank them. "Gimmicky" sets like Substitute + Charge Beam on Rotom are being tossed aside for the TrickScarf set and general support sets with Will-O-Wisp. Vaporeon and Rotom-A can take nearly everything in the metagame, Scizor, Heatran, Gyarados, Metagross, and others.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2009
  3. Gen. Empoleon

    Gen. Empoleon Parasect-sect

    I play Ubers addie, what do you want from me?

    Though I do find it odd that Heatran has died down, considering that Scizor can't do much to him (besides Superpower). Even then Bait Tran can help take down pokemon like Tyranitar and Gyarados thanks to Toxic. Though I guess when it comes to beating Scizor, Magnezone should be able to handle him easier thanks to his ability + Hidden Power Fire. My question is when a person switches in a Salamence, what do you switch to?
     
  4. Addie

    Addie (•✖•)

    When Salamence comes in, it depends, as there are no real Salamence counters. You have to just play around it by using your prediction skill. Like, switch in Starmie or something on the Dragon Dance, then switch to Bronzong, Skarmory, or Metagross on the Outrage.
     
  5. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan stole Gen's avatar

    To me, Salamence is just on the borderline between top OU and Uber. Seriously. I say Salamence, what comes to mind as a counter? Absolutely nothing. Bronzong and Skarmory can't handle the Flamethrower/Fire Blast ones, Porygon-2 risks eating a Draco Meteor, and virtually nothing else in the game can handle a Dragon Danced Outrage. Probably the most broken sets are the Life Orb Outrage + Draco Meteor versions. With two of Fire Blast, Earthquake and Roost, it's pretty much impossible to counter.

    Scizor, despite getting more use, really isn't uber. Zapdos, Gyarados, and Rotom can all handle absolutely any Scizor set.

    I'm interested in how popular Rotom-A is. I believe Rotom-H came in fairly high on the Smogon ladder, but how popular are they as a group?
     
  6. SheepS

    SheepS constant

    my diglett is bigger than Gens
     
  7. Unideal

    Unideal Why I don't survive

    Physical MixApe combined with a solid MixMence makes for a beastly offensive combination. Mence can play for a stronger special game while Ape has better physical versatility/strength. It's been working out pretty well for me so far with some bulkier backup to play with it.
     
  8. fishyfool

    fishyfool And a nice chianti

    Real mature. Listen to this guy, he knows the whole meat in the metagame.

    It goes without saying that Garchomp's older brother Salamence is finsing himself in the same boat as the podded dragon. Mence has Intimidate to cover his mediocre defense, has access to amazing offensive stats and is a dragon, thereby getting STAB on Outrage and Draco Meteor, and can sweep anything in the metagame with a bit of help from a Life Orb. He's invincible.

    Well, most would say so anyways. The thing is, Salamence is up there with a heap of pokemon with base 100 Speed, which a good few pokemon match. Being a dragon, he falls to ice as well, and as most would argue, good luck getting anything in on him. Perhaps the best way to see Salamence is as Garchomp in the early days: Powerful, and his niche role found in a certain set that renders him, in the public eyes, Uber. Like anything, he has counters, however.
     
  9. Vaporeon4evr

    Vaporeon4evr Cyndakill

    So what we're getting at is that the metagame is constantly shifting. We watched as Garchomp ascended into the heavens as an Uber, and as Slaking descended into the pits of Never-Used.

    I'm not sure if this is still relevant, but while I played Shoddy (back in the good ol' days when Garch was OU), about 30% of teams I encountered had a Ninjask lead to Baton-Pass Swords Dance and Speed Boosts to a sweeper, most often Tyranitar or Garchomp. Another 30% used Bronzong with Hypnosis and Stealth Rock, and another 20% led with Azelf. So what did I do? I lead with a Weavile and Ice-Sharded the hell out of Ninjask Leads and Pursuit-ed the fleeing Azelfs, and switched to aforementioned Salamence to Fire Blast Bronzong into obscurity.

    Bottom line: the metagame is predictable. Horribly so. For that reason, I don't feel like I can truly enjoy it. I don't know if it has changed at all, so I may indeed be preaching obsolete messages. Nevertheless, since then I haven't been able to enjoy the competitive metagame.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2009
  10. Gen. Empoleon

    Gen. Empoleon Parasect-sect

    No what we're getting at is talking about the metagame, how it is changing, common things we're noticing and things we're having difficulty with.

    Thanks, too bad that in DP BOAH Tar was the most common, maybe maybe DD and CB were used a bit more, but a hell of a lot more teams carried BOAH back then. Weavile was a good antilead and pokemon when Garchomp was around, now that he has left, he is pretty much useless and is outclassed by Mamoswine. Thanks for telling us about DP, which was ages ago it seems.

    Why don't you actually go play the new metagame to figure out if it is "stale" or not. In fact in almost every generation in pokemon there was a very predictable OU metagame. In ADV SkarmBliss was almost on every team, while Metagross and Gengar were everywhere. I don't see why you say its stale. Actually on the aspect of being stale, UU is pretty much stale too! There are top tier UU pokemon which you need to use to win, and the same goes for NU and Ubers as well. (though you don't NEED Kyogre in Ubers).

    I honestly don't see your point.
     
  11. Phototoxin

    Phototoxin Member

    Its a bit like magic the gathering there is the build which crushes ALL except its counter. And then there are viariations on that. However then there's people (like me) who have something completely different which screws up everyone because i) they didn't expect it, ii) its 'useless' so underestimate it iii) they are confused & iv) it baiscally ignores the metagame 'rules'

    Bottom line; play to have fun - if thats via compeditiveness and having tier one uber skillz pkmn then fine, if its having 6 abras with splash then fine. Just have fun. It's a game after all.
     
  12. Gen. Empoleon

    Gen. Empoleon Parasect-sect

    What you fail to understand that in a competitive game tiers are needed. Otherwise Groudon and Kyogre would be on every ****ing team. Trust me, I know about unexpected pokemon, I ****ing revolutionized Ubers thanks to Parasect, but in a competitive game YOU PLAY TO WIN. Do not come to a game with six abras and do not go to an OU game with an Uber. Tiers are for balance. Do not say "Tiers are for queers" because it makes you seem ignorant in the fact you have no idea what the tiers are based on. Do not try to be creative with your teams, as it will most likely put you at a disadvantage to the entire metagame, I'm sorry but using Honchkrow as a mixed sweeper over Infernape has no advantages, sorry.
     
  13. Vaporeon4evr

    Vaporeon4evr Cyndakill

    No need to sh*t a brick.

    My point is that although the metagame is constantly changing, it remains predictable (not stale). There is a universal agreement about what roles specific pokemon ought to play, and how they ought to play them. That's why sites such as Smogon exist. And because everyone agrees on these pokemon sets, we are all familiar with them. The constant changes occur because we discover good strategies, which become popular. Then, everyone finds a good counter for it, and the strategy looses its novelty and usefulness. But at the end of the day, all that's changed is what's common and what's not.

    So, my friend, the metagame is not necessarily stale, but to a degree, it's consistently predictable. It can't be helped, but it's true.

    As for you, Phototoxin, you are exactly what I like to see in the competitive scene. Someone with originality, who doesn't follow the unwritten "laws" of the metagame. Kudos.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2009
  14. Kingdrom

    Kingdrom Turn Away Again

    I'm sorry that the intelligence level here is a little deficient, Gen. Empoleon. Some people don't understand that playing competitively is playing to win, and playing to win is using the best tools available, which means not using outclassed Pokes just because.

    Scizor is one of those Pokemon that will continue to rise in usage until something else, possibly Gyarados, comes back in bulky builds to become anti-metagame. All together, Rotom-A gathered 66231 uses, enough to be the 15th most used Pokemon. However, it won't catch on among the average user, as Scizor has, due to low HP and the inability to choose 4 moves out of all of the possibilities. Magnezone usage, especially the Scarfed variants, will rise in order to eliminate Scizor, Metagross, and Dual-STAB Mixmence, a sure fire way to eliminate the first two.

    In terms of OU as a whole, people are definitely seeing scouting moves (U-Turn, Baton Pass) as a welcome place on the team. This can be seen from the increased usage of Jolteon and continuing usage of Flygon. Eventually, this is leading us back to a bulky offense based off of ensuring good prediction with the aforementioned moves, where the metagame will remain balanced until the results of Stage 3 Suspect testing add new Pokemon to OU. Usage of Breloom has seemed to be leveling off, if not slightly decreasing, which is strange given the prevalance of Scizor and Salamence. Usage of Heatran and Zapdos must have a large affect on this.

    If Shaymin-S enters the OU metagame for good, expect to see a lot more stall. I don't think that Garchomp becoming OU will affect general trends because of all the competition it gets with Kingdra, Flygon (inferior but it gets U-Turn) and Latias (in terms of acting as a bulky sweeper / check to several Pokemon).
     
  15. Gen. Empoleon

    Gen. Empoleon Parasect-sect

    I honestly do not see Shaymin-s coming back to OU, the Specs Shaymin-S set can 2HKO a max/max Blissey, when factoring in the SpDef drop (which it is likely to do). Not only that but it also may become "the lead" as it can just Flinch leads until they die, or hit Metagross with Earth Power. Though Shaymin-S does help deal with pokemon like Salamence to some degree, thanks to the scarf set and Hidden Power Ice. Manaphy may be able to come back, but that's only because Latias can resist its Water-type STAB and set up Light Screen, otherwise Manaphy is extremely difficult to stop once it is rolling. I also noticed that DS Memento Latios as been used less and was replaced with the Specs Set, whether it is just people not thinking they have time to set up a Gliscor to pass or whatever I do not know.

    Garchomp has really caught my eye, in the fact he doesn't seem to be as dangerous anymore. He has a choice between two berries to use, Haban or Yache; using either one leaves him at a severe disadvantage to the opposite type, and if you use Life Orb then he is terrified of all the Ice- and Dragon-type attacks everywhere. Scarf Chomp has been used a bit, it is still an extremely effective revenge killer thanks to its 102 Speed stat.

    Scizor helps counter a lot of the OU threats (Latios, Latias, Garchomp) with U-Turn and Bullet Punch, but I have noticed that Lati@s may even run Hidden Power Fire just to get rid of him. Honestly I can see Garchomp and Latias staying, with a possibility of Manaphy, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
     
  16. MustGetPlatinum

    MustGetPlatinum Well-Known Member

    Just for information's sake, is there a way to beat MixApe?
     
  17. randomspot555

    randomspot555 Well-Known Member

    Moltres is a pretty great counter. It just has crap typing so it takes damage from SR.
     
  18. Gen. Empoleon

    Gen. Empoleon Parasect-sect

    Do not suggest poor counters for Mix Ape. Mix Ape is very hard to counter on its own, the best suggesting I have is Vaporeon, who can come in and then hit it with Surf, as a +2 Grass Knot won't OHKO it.
     
  19. Vaporeon4evr

    Vaporeon4evr Cyndakill

    I've been observing battles, and I'm amazaed at the lack of Jirachi leads. Jirachi seems to be one of the most capable anti-leads, with Flinch hax and Scarf-Tricking the likes of Bronzong, Hippowdon, etc.

    Also, does anyone know anything about a Flinch-and-flee Ambipom? As in whether or not he is useful at all?
     
  20. randomspot555

    randomspot555 Well-Known Member

    If by observing you mean stuff like Youtube videos, event exclusive Pokemon (either obtained directly at events, or via ticket) are not very common on Wi-Fi due to the rarity of them. So while Jirachi and Celebi are OU on battle simulators, they're not much of a concern for Wi-Fi battlers.

    Ambipom is a great anti-lead. Faster than Infernape (but a bit slower than Weavile), it can STAB Fake Out on turn 1, and then U-Turn out. It can round out it's set with Taunt and Thunder Wave. Unlike Infernape, it doesn't have Stealth Rock to utilize, but SR can easily fit in on a number of bulky Pokemon so you have access to it throughout the match in case it gets Rapid Spinned away.
     

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