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Pokemon Fan Presents the Alola Pokémon League

Discussion in 'Animé Spoilers' started by Dephender, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. Doppelgänger

    Doppelgänger Well-Known Member

    There's no way the matches will be lackluster.

    Only Hoenn could be said to have ho-hum battles, every other league has had one if not multiple series-best episodes. I get that SM has had mostly poor battles but all evidence points to this league being the culminating event of Alola, so a mediocre payoff would be unprecedented for both the SM series the Pokemon anime in general.
     
  2. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    It's quite possible given SM's track record with battles hasn't been very good. All the Kahuna battles except maybe one have been lackluster too. It might be better than the Unova league though, the Unova league had one great battle which was Ash Vs. Stephen while all the others were lackluster or poor, so who knows.
     
  3. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 Neutral force of Meh

    hoenn had ash vs katie and ash vs tyson
    Unova, on the other hand, had a bad 1v1 with ash vs trip, an ok 2v2 with bianca vs cameron, a great 3v3 with ash vs stephan, and a disgrace of a 6v5 with ash vs cameron
     
  4. Blue Saturday

    Blue Saturday too fly

    S&M battles have been fine to me, the only reason I see them getting poor reception for being “poor” is due to the fact they aren’t as flashy as XY battles. Flashiness doesn’t make a good battle for me, a battle can have a bunch of well animated kicks and punches and “cool” shots but that doesn’t make it a good battle for me. A top tier battle for me is one that is given a well thought out amount of struggle, some decent strategy, realism and healthy momentum / narrative weight worth investing in it beyond given Satoshi a certain “tally” on his battle record. Suiren’s fishing battle, Nyaheat/Gaogaen fights, Gyarados, Lugarugan/Kuchinasu, Lillie’s Ice Double Battle, Pikachu/Mimikyu, Kaki/Garagara, were great matches narratively and aesthetically in my eyes.

    I like how the animation has turned from constant explosions and windswept fireworks shows and brawl fest to a more simple style sans Z-Moves, it’s just so easy on the eyes in its own way and the battles not being as speedy allows us to take own time following the actual character motives. Those little breaks during the Lugarugan / Kuchinasu fights did a lot showing us the turmoil the dog and Satoshi felt and their overall trust and development throughout the arc. It wasn’t just Satoshi versus Kuchinasu, it was him and Lugarugan versus Kuchinasu. They figured out a way around Counter, got to showcase their new move in Stone Edge and countered Black Hole Eclipse with the Z-Move Gladion’s Midnight dog inspired him to want, World End Fall.
     
    Lightning Bolt and Pokegirl Fan~ like this.
  5. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    There's been plenty of strategy in all the big XY battles. I think this "meme" of XY battles just having good animation needs to end. Aside from maybe DP's best battles, XY battles had plenty of techniques and strategy used by Ash or his opponent. There's a reason Ash Vs. Clemont is one of the best Gym battles of the entire anime.
     
    DuquÊ? likes this.
  6. Blue Saturday

    Blue Saturday too fly

    Ironically I thought Satoshi/Citron was one of the worst battles, pretty animation but overall did not live up to the hype. Little struggle on Satoshi’s end, Pikachu and Luchabull just blow through the bunny and lizard like nothing, then Rentorar Ko’s both with the dragon quickly ridding itself of paralysis and knocking out the look with Bide. In fact I distinctly remember the one aspect everyone loved about the battle being the animation with the actual showdown itself being moreso a let down thematically because Citron kind of felt like a pushover due to never being portrayed as all that strong compared to Satoshi. XY had some battles with good strategy but much of it is over exaggerated due to pretty art, animation and battle presentation. Satoshi-Gekkouga fights were just flashy Shounen slugfest ending in generic standoffs where one opponent overdramamticaly drops.
     
  7. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    If you honestly think that was one of the worst battles (not talking about the animation, but the battles), then I dunno, I guess to each their own. The climax with Luxray and Goodra was much shorter than it should have been, but there was great battling all around and Pikachu winning against the bunny with throwbacks to their first battle back in XY2 or whatever it was, was well done. Clemont has also always been portrayed as fairly strong, the bunny was beating Pikachu in its first appearance, and Luxray was pretty powerful. Clemont's other pokemon was always at the Gym so we don't know how strong it was supposed to be. It was not only one of the best Gyms of XY, but of the majority of the anime.

    In comparison every Kahuna battle, aside from maybe Nanu's, has been rather disappointing. I won't even get into Hapu for obvious reasons, but Olivia and the first one weren't too good either.
     
  8. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    Clemont's gym battle should have been a two-parter, really. Clemont should have been tougher to beat, too.
     
  9. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    He pretty much was, Ash was done to his last pokemon. I'm glad Clemont didn't use Chespin in the Gym match either, he would have been pointless.
     
  10. Blue Saturday

    Blue Saturday too fly

    The battle had no room to breath, the climax was rushed. Pikachu destroyed Horubee so fast it made you wonder why they waited so long to settle the match from the first episode. After the “throwback” scene ended Pikachu wrecked it with one Iron Tail by dragging it from under ground with Iron Tail. Even before that the bunny ate **** all the time against others like Keromatsu in the double battle or Team Rocket so they did a poor job building up it as a threat. Erezado was done in fast despite the “Flash” tactic in like two hits. Numelgon/Rentorar came down to a flashy finish and slugfest like a lot of “hype” type Shounen battles. This same Rentorar had no real development post capture and then was ignored letting us know the writers only had Citron get it to job to Satoshi.

    On a surface level it looks cool but given an in-depth look it was all flash with little actual “substance” which was a big issue for me with XY. S&M battles need more length on average but other than that I’m fine with them because even when there is a battle it’s for a purpose to develop a character in some way. Totem Yowashi was about Suiren getting the Waterium and Ashimari growing, Garagara/Eleckible was about Kaki bonding with Garagara, Lugarugan/Kuchinasu was about Satoshi and Lugarugan coming full circle, Lillie/James was about Lillie understanding how Pokemon and trainer fight as a team and trust each other in battle, they weren’t flashy affairs but the battles told a story and served their purposes. Lillie’s fight with Pikachu wasn’t strategic because it was about Lillie becoming confident and finally touching another Pokemon (“You’re so WARM, Pikachu.” is what she said after touching him, compare this to Shiron who is Ice-type and cold and the only Pokemon she touched up until this point.)
     
  11. Doppelgänger

    Doppelgänger Well-Known Member

    I wasn't invested in the Clemont Gym Battle because we'd already seen a battle with that Pokemon in a prior, more climactic Gym Battle (with Volkner). The major thrill of that fight was Ash using a pseudo, in one of the few areas where that particular pseudo could shine.

    As for SM battles, they tend to have the proper story beats that would make for good action, but allow for some deflating logic that makes the situation pointless. The Ash-Gladion, Pikachu-Mimikyu megamart battles were good until a dumb DEX was brought in to resolve the action at horribly cliche moments.

    XY has similar setups because it would use game mechanics to build up action sequences, but was better able to disguise cop out resolutions. For example, I never see Alain vs Trevor get cited as XY's worst battle, but it really was. Instead of actually animating the episode, the anime spliced it with Ash and a random Furfou trainer, with neither battle shown at all.

    What should have had amazing setup and resolution, Mega X versus Mega Y, instead was reduced in scope and forced to rely on DEX like Alain one shotting Trevor. Even SM's worst battle, that megamart one, didn't stoop so low.
     
  12. p96822

    p96822 Evolve me please

    I completely disagree with for you. I thought Volkner’s battle with Ash was really bland compared to Clemont’s battle with Ash because I don’t feel like Ash used his Pokémon to their fullest potential when facing off Volkner.
     
  13. Blood Red

    Blood Red ...

    ...wait, so this League will have at least 3 trainers who have Legendary Pokémon? And one of them is Ash?!

    Man, can't wait to see him lose despite having tons of experience and a Legendary Pokémon!
     
    Pokegirl Fan~ likes this.
  14. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    I hate to break it to you, but 90% of the battles of the anime play out like this in every saga. I don't know where you were for all the other big battles of the show. It's even worse in other sagas because Ash's pokemon usually take a huge amount of battle damage, then hang in there, and Ash then has a come from behind win where he pulls out a last minute strategy where then his opponent loses in 1-2 attacks. In XY they didn't have Ash's pokemon take too much damage and had a more even ground of attacks before he won.

    So if you're talking about development moment between characters after, this happens in other sagas too. Look at Serena Vs. Ellie in in that episode Braixen evolves, or Clemont and Ash's speech after their battle,etc.

    The Gym had about 60 eps of build-up between Ash/Clemont, the Pikachu/bunny battle was a throwback to their intro, and the climax of Goodra Vs. Luxray was heavily foreshadowed. It's probably one of the best constructed Gym matches of the show, and also the best one he had against a companion. Which is obvious as Misty/Brock and Cilan's Gyms with Ash all happened early in their series and were just decent fights.

    Eh? Most people hated the Alan vs. Trevor match. The only reason people don't care is...it's Trevor. Nobody cared about his character. I do remember people wishing Charizard Y got a better showcasing.
     
  15. dman_dustin

    dman_dustin Well-Known Member

    I hated the episode, primarily because Ash got screwed over, because we had to have three separate things going at once:

    1. Alan vs Trevor
    2. Ash vs 7 badge sore loser
    3. Ash vs League Opponent.

    And all we got was Ash-Greninja basically one shotting Altaria for Ash's battle.

    Which as it pertains to the ALOLA league, I don't want Ash's battles to be screwed over or rushed in favor of character battles that I don't care about, if the battle is SO important, make an ADDITIONAL episode, don't be mashing plots in one episode. Like I disliked Barry vs Paul, but simply because Ash's own battle was horribly rushed, especially the Ash vs Nando fight was ruined by Team Rocket focus. NOT to mention that annoying Axew getting lost intermission of nonsense in the Unova league (just because they had to force Pokemon; not Pikachu, to only get one battle so we get a rushed Scraggy vs Darumaka battle. Also still annoyed about the Astrid battle, just because we had to watch Tierno battling Sawyer (which I'm not saying was inherently bad but why did it have to occur at the sacrifice of Ash's battle).

    I know I'm never going to get a massively elongated league that does Ash complete justice in these leagues (I think the Kanto league was close, but they still managed to screw Ash over when it came to Ash vs Ritchie, and that absolute BULL CRAP that was Team Rocket's interference, where more than half of the episode, had nothing to do with Ash battling Ritchie. Again I know I'm not going to get it, and somehow Ash and one or more of his Pokemon are going to be completely screwed over, I get that, but I still want to have hope that they pace leagues properly and DON'T screw Ash over.

    And this league will probably be the worst, but I don't like how the writers make it so leagues don't focus on the MAIN protagonist, I'm not saying it CAN'T focus on the other characters, I just don't like how they screw Ash over repeatedly for matches that I honestly couldn't care less about (if simply because they screwed Ash over for said battle). Which is why I HOPE there are extra episodes during this ALOLAN league, that can properly address other people's battles (using their Z-moves), but not screwing Ash out in the process, which again I know isn't going to happen.
     
    BTS_fan and Master Pikachu 11 like this.
  16. Doppelgänger

    Doppelgänger Well-Known Member

    The Furfou trainer would have been fine set up if Ash actually won the league. In the grand scheme of things, Trevor and Ash's first opponent exist to get stomped. But even if viewers didn't care about Trevor, he had more setup than most league opponents or even would-be dream killers. With a Mega Pokemon, he deserved better than that.

    Ash losing the league recasts that episode as not just lazy, but intentionally spiteful. The laziness is that the three battles allowed the director to cut between them to avoid actually animating anything. One-shotting the Mega Charizard Y doesn't make any sense and also works into a scheme to avoid animating a proper battle. The spite comes from how the Furfou trainer was portrayed, very emotional at being unable to enter the league, and Ash promising him to win. This scene has no resolution in the series and I don't know how to react when Ash later shows no emotion at losing to Alain. Are you supposed to forget something that was so important the director cut away from Mega X vs Mega Y to focus on it? A conflict that took like 15 minutes of screen time, between the first and second challenge of the Furfou trainer?

    I can't reach any other conclusion for why this episode exists like it does aside from the director being lazy and mean spirited. There's way more going on than simply skipping Trevor's battle.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
    pokedigijedi likes this.
  17. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    The problem with SM's battles is that while many are character driven, they aren't in terms of the actual strategy and battles themselves, things that actually bulk up experience. Most of the big changer moments are in fact more or less interruptions (eg. Rowlet falling asleep mid battle, Rockruff/Lycanroc acting up, Ash DROPPING HIS Z RING).

    XY had loads of 'dud battles' but bothered to make the main gym ones full fledged with no interruptions and a full focus in substance on how competent Ash was. SM doesn't shirk completely from showing Ash is competent, he still regularly gets some good moves in, but they tend to keep having these little interruptions take over and break the momentum. The only Grand Trial that didn't feature one was Hapu's which many agree was relatively poor and only used one Pokemon.

    Other key matches have this problem intensified and go back to having plot armour decide the outcome completely at times (eg. the Wishiwashi and Mimikyu trials decided by a DEM move learn).

    And of course the Z Moves are a frequent source of complaint, since right now they have become a bit too formulaic due to being a simplified finisher move. If two trainers battle with Z Moves you can almost certainly who will win based on who uses their's last. They really should have at least broke this formula a few more times to keep things less predictable.

    I don't think the actual battle number for SM is that bad (unless they REALLY expect to have the other students to battle competently all of a sudden and it to look believable, in which case yes, they DEFINITELY have been skimpy with their build up), after all a lot of previous series battles were just TR curbstomps and what not, so condensing some of those less meaningful cases in favour of other storytelling approaches isn't a bad idea, but SM hasn't really been 'more for less', it barely has the attention span for one full uninterrupted match with more than one Pokemon. I wouldn't call it an atrocious run like some others have, but it does feel rather lethargic, especially in a series that wants to culminate EVERYONE'S efforts in a league.

    Only Kiawe's matches have really been a good example of a condensed battle arc, with all his battles being complete and strategic while still character driven. Even then though he could have used some more.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  18. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    So far each league has averaged around 7 episodes. With so many characters competing this time I wonder if it'll be more, but my guess is it'll just be a lot of 1 on 1 battles at first to knock characters out quickly. Assuming Ash Vs. Gladion and Hau, and then whatever Guzma's match is gets a full episode...this is either going to be the most rushed league or the longest.
     
  19. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    They can perfectly have the classmates to face each other in first round.
     
  20. Kintaro

    Kintaro Well-Known Member

    Gladion might battle Lillie which of course she will lose. I can see Lana battling Mallow. And Sophocles losing to Kiawe.
     

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