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Pokemon Fan Presents the Alola Pokémon League

Lord Godwin

The Lord of Darkness
Turtonator is strong, but not "can fight and survive against primal groudon" strong (until something else comes, I can and will keep citing the SME act 3 fight as the biggest feat of any trainer in the anime),

It also post against Brocka Mega Steelix. Do you think it's E4 level now?

Still Kiawe gain a lot of my respect this episode.
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
Another possibility is that Ash loses in the semifinals to Gladion who then goes on to beat Guzma.

not really, considering that Ash vs Guzma was foreshadowed in episode 128, and no matter how you try to argue it they wouldn't foreshadow a league match between Ash vs Guzma if it wasn't going to happen. At this point it makes more sense for the final match to be Ash vs Guzma, because not only are they both connected to Kukui, it would really show how close Guzma came to succeeding in his goal to destroy the league.

Plus at this point nothing Gladion can do could put as much pressure and stress on Ash then Guzma can do to the simple fact that Ash knows Gladion isn't going to destroy the league if he wins, however if Ash vs Guzma is the final match of the league then it would put a lot more pressure and stress on Ash because he knows that if he were to lose against Guzma, it would mean that Guzma would win the league and succeed in his goal.

I know people like to think that oh Ash can't be allowed to win this league, however if you really look at it from narrative reason it makes more sense Ash vs Guzma to be the final match of the league and Ash to win that rather then have the final match just be Ash vs Gladion which has no chance of putting as much pressure and stress on Ash as fighting Guzma would.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
It also post against Brocka Mega Steelix. Do you think it's E4 level now?

Still Kiawe gain a lot of my respect this episode.
Again, I'm not saying that Turtonator is weak, but it takes a lot more to be E4 level, E4-tier mons can destroy pikachu and infernape with negligible effort, wreck torterra, or tango with cynthia's garchomp, and that's not even getting into megas
 

Kdude146

Well-Known Member
Given how Plumeria played dirty to benefit Guzma, if Guzma beats Ilima, I don't see him winning the League. Even if the Masked Royal beats him, Guzma will have still accomplished his mission of winning the League so he can destroy it, which would leave a horrible taste in people's mouths.

Even if Guzma does become the champion I don't think he can just destroy the league by saying that's it will never happen again. Each league has a governing body and committee that would not let a champion say no more Pokemon League.
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
You have no way of showing that an E4 is "a lot more" powerful than Turtonator, a Pokemon that

-almost knocked out Mega Steelix, evidenced by Steelix's steam breath and Brock's comments
-defeated an Alolan Sandslash, Magmortar, Electivire, and Metagross with little effort in the same battle with no rest
-tanked a Salamence Flamethrower and hit it hard with Dragon Tail

Note that the Mega Steelix battle happened almost 70 episodes ago, before Turtonator learned Shell Smash and spent all that time training for the Pokemon League. Given what we just saw, it would probably win this time.

By your own admission, Mega Pokemon are powerful. So to say Turtonator isn't E4 level, you have to show

-all Elite Four are equally powerful (not true)
-all Elite Four Pokemon are equally powerful
-all Elite Four are above Mega Pokemon

I didn't even argue that Kiawe was E4 tier, I personally don't think he is, but there's no way to prove it either way. Elite Four is a title given to trainers who are said to be strong. Unless they demonstrate, we have no idea how strong they really are.

We just saw an episode where a Pokemon proved he was strong by beating Pokemon that are consistently portrayed as strong, in unfavourable conditions. Turtonator was ganged up on by Electivire (who previously defeated him) and Magmortar, and he obliterated both at once.

To me, saying E4 are still above seems is putting the title before the feats. I'm going to trust what I see over what I'm told every single time.
Shell Smash was before the Mega Steelix battle as it learned it in the episode he caught Marowak
 

DuquÊ?

Too lazy to pick a pic
Do you really think they'll have a "Bad Guy wins" scenario in Pokémon and have the Alola League be destroyed? Because if Guzma wins, the Alola League will be destroyed. That's Guzma's goal. The match against the Masked Royal is an exhibition match. And even if Guzma loses that, which he would, it would be a case of Kukui winning the battle but losing the war since Guzma would still be Champion and be able to destroy the Alola League. And after that, it would be highly difficult for Kului to simply make another League even should Guzma get arrested, killed, or banished to another dimension. The stigma of having Kukui's League being won by scum like Guzma would stick around for a long time. The only way I can see Guzma beating Ash is if he faces Ash in a round other than the finals. If it's the finals, then Ash will win because if he doesn't, he will be a true failure for not only losing the League, but allowing it to be destroyed and/or discredited by Guzma, which would leave a horrible taste in everyone's mouth.
I thought the original point in the games was that, different of previous villain team leaders, Guzma wasn't a totally irredeemable monster ("monster" being a stretch), since in both SM and USUM, he's willing to deband Team Skull/have them doing something productive with their lives. The only difference here is that Kukui is an important part of his character development, since anime Lusamine have nothing to do with Guzma. It isn't impossible Guzma change his ways during the league because of Ash or Kukui himself, it would be actually a decent way to conclude the things with Team Skull as a whole (rushed and stupid? Maybe, but SM is kinda the "whatever works" saga for me).

At least, in my opinion, it would be better than have Gladion as the champion, but, hey, there's always the chance of this league be Ash's shortest campaign ever if he does lose to Hau in august.
 

Red and Blue

Well-Known Member
If all the matches up until Kukui are 1 vs. 1 this league should go by rather quickly. They can just dedicate one episode each for Ash's matches with Gladion and Guzma. With possibly an episode set between Ash's possible victory and the exhibition match with Kukui
 

Lord Godwin

The Lord of Darkness
If all the matches up until Kukui are 1 vs. 1 this league should go by rather quickly. They can just dedicate one episode each for Ash's matches with Gladion and Guzma. With possibly an episode set between Ash's possible victory and the exhibition match with Kukui

I really hope it's not the case and each round will be, at least, +1 more pokemon (2vs2 for top 8, 3vs3 for top 4 and 4vs4 for finał). Would prefer some full battles, though...
 

Ambyssin

Winter can't come soon enough
I have a real hard time thinking they'll all be one-on-one. Because, assuming Ash gets all the way to the finals, if they're still doing 1v1 then that means A) Pikachu will not be used in the Final Tournament at all to give the other members of Ash's team their sendoff moments, or B) one of Ash's members will be sidelined for the league. And, like, it seems like a no-brainer that Ash would use Pikachu against Guzma's Golisopod.

At the very least, a Lycanroc-off is bound to happen between Ash and Gladion. Whether this is when Dusk finally gets the win or is basically this region's Greninja remains to be seen. show pikachu vs. silvally you cowards you won't
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
Kalos is notorious for 'feats' like that, and most websites that routinely talk about power levels like WWW and ComicVine would throw them out. Those battles were aborted, and even before they were aborted they were too vague and contradict later events. Nobody's going to accept interpretation-based evidence when there are much clearer feats in later Mega Evolution Specials and anime episodes.

Here, SM129 gave us solid, unambiguous feats of defeating multiple evolved Pokemon, often in a single hit, without any time for recovery. That is damn impressive, and Pikachu's performance here might be his best to date, save the defeat of Regice and Latios.
SM129's feats are as ambiguous as SME act 3, the pokemon ash and kiawe beat (aside from magmar/electrivire) have absolutely no previous feats whatsoever, so we don't really know how strong they really were. Meanwhile, we saw Kyogre being able to take on M.Metagross' meteor mash without much issues (something tangible), and Groudon was around the same level of power as Kyogre, we then saw Charizard take a surprise Precipice Blades to the gut and not only survive, but not get de-mega'd (like usually happens when a mega gets defeated), though it still took a lot of damage. IDK what there is vague. Then, Malva's M.Houndoom was able to take on that same M.Charizard at full health (although low on stamina) and give it a good fight, I doubt such a pokemon would fall to Turtonator.
You have no way of showing that an E4 is "a lot more" powerful than Turtonator, a Pokemon that

-almost knocked out Mega Steelix, evidenced by Steelix's steam breath and Brock's comments
-defeated an Alolan Sandslash, Magmortar, Electivire, and Metagross with little effort in the same battle with no rest
-tanked a Salamence Flamethrower and hit it hard with Dragon Tail

Note that the Mega Steelix battle happened almost 70 episodes ago, before Turtonator learned Shell Smash and spent all that time training for the Pokemon League. Given what we just saw, it would probably win this time.

By your own admission, Mega Pokemon are powerful. So to say Turtonator isn't E4 level, you have to show

-all Elite Four are equally powerful (not true)
-all Elite Four Pokemon are equally powerful
-all Elite Four are above Mega Pokemon

I didn't even argue that Kiawe was E4 tier, I personally don't think he is, but there's no way to prove it either way. Elite Four is a title given to trainers who are said to be strong. Unless they demonstrate, we have no idea how strong they really are.

We just saw an episode where a Pokemon proved he was strong by beating Pokemon that are consistently portrayed as strong, in unfavourable conditions. Turtonator was ganged up on by Electivire (who previously defeated him) and Magmortar, and he obliterated both at once.

To me, saying E4 are still above seems is putting the title before the feats. I'm going to trust what I see over what I'm told every single time.
-Steelix flat out just stood there (though on guard) against the Z-move, without trying to counter it or do anything else about it, he did a lot of damage, but that was partially because of type advantage, a good feat, but an issue is that steelix has nothing to really compare to (his only other feat was beating other featless mons from TR HQ commanded by jessie and james), and megas can vary in strength heavily, even between gym leaders, as we've seen with Korrina's M.Lucario and Wulfric's M.Abomasnow
-E4 mons and members aren't equally powerful, you're right there, but even then, I really doubt Turtonator would beat a lower tier E4 mon, highly damage, yes, but beat, I doubt it, as E4 members have been portrayed as almost unstoppable forces before XY (and even then the only one capable of beating an E4 mon well was using a horribly OP pokemon)
-Like I said, Megas vary in power, so that statement is already flawed because there's no single "mega" level
-You said that a +2 IO from Turtonator would beat M.Houndoom, which implies that you're putting him in the same level as an E4's mon
-Ok then, go by what you saw, if you've seen E4 members fight, you've seen that some of their pokemon are able to:
Destroy pikachu and infernape with negligible effort, wreck torterra, tango with cynthia's garchomp, and that's not even getting into E4 megas
 

Lucario At Service

Calm Trainer
Well, i would say that the top contender to win Alola League would be either Mina or Acerola.

The reason i pick those two because the others are kind of odd players,
- Guzma has to be defeated by Ash. Also i don't believe that Ash would win (if anyone points to the OP part, then i would point that, in there Pikachu and Incineroar are shown fighting in an empty stadium, which i believe suggests that Ash doesn't get to fight Masked Royal during the exhibition match, but rather later on)
- Gladion and Hau are seen as main rival for Ash (so they are less likely to win, though if i had to pick one, it would be Gladion who could win)
- Mallow and Lana both only have two pokemons (i believe that the final would be a 3 vs 3 battle), so less chance for them.
- Lillie, Kiawe, Sophocles, and Ilima would probably be losing next round.
- Faba would be losing next episode, while Jessie, James and Samson Oak are oddities.
 

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
Well, i would say that the top contender to win Alola League would be either Mina or Acerola.

The reason i pick those two because the others are kind of odd players,
- Guzma has to be defeated by Ash. Also i don't believe that Ash would win (if anyone points to the OP part, then i would point that, in there Pikachu and Incineroar are shown fighting in an empty stadium, which i believe suggests that Ash doesn't get to fight Masked Royal during the exhibition match, but rather later on)
- Gladion and Hau are seen as main rival for Ash (so they are less likely to win, though if i had to pick one, it would be Gladion who could win)
- Mallow and Lana both only have two pokemons (i believe that the final would be a 3 vs 3 battle), so less chance for them.
- Lillie, Kiawe, Sophocles, and Ilima would probably be losing next round.
- Faba would be losing next episode, while Jessie, James and Samson Oak are oddities.
And we already know Samson loses.
 

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
There are other characters that Ash can lose to.
Only Hau or Gladion, really. Unless they have Lillie win against Gladion, in which case I will spend next week laughing.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
That isn't vague, it's a durability feat. I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. Yes, it is impressive that Mega Charizard X could survive a super effective Precipice Blades, although I'd argue that episode was loose with type advantages because Charizard was still flying and immune to ground attacks for most of the battle. Only when he got close to the ground did the Precipice Blades manage to hit.

BUT, he survived. So it's a feat.
I was arguing against you saying that the episode was vague in terms of feats, which it really isn't

Malva was stupid, I might point out, since by Mega Evolving her Houndoom became vulnerable to two of Charizard's moves, one of which (Blast Burn) it would have otherwise been immune to.

What Malva/Siebold do is establish that Elite Four aren't equal in strength, and if Diantha is stronger than Siebold, she is definitely stronger than Alain and way beyond what Ash-Greninja is capable of. This is reinforced by M17 where she OHKO's Wikstrom's Mega Scizor.
The Malva fight happened WAY after the Siebold fight, and Alain trained hard since then (heck, there was a considerable amount of training even between the primal groudon fight and the Malva fight), so the results from fights that were very far apart doesn't really prove anything (though I do agree with all E4s not being the same). About Malva being dumb, mega evolving provides a huge power boost, without it she'd have gotten wrecked by zard, even with some moves blocked. Also, movies shouldn't really be taken much into account, seeing as how their canon status is kinda dubious (though yeah, champions do tend to be better than E4 by a considerable margin, for obvious reasons).
Regardless, take a step back and look at what you're saying.
A +0 Inferno Overdrive almost beat Mega Steelix.
A +2 Inferno Overdrive made a Metagross disappear.

Blast Burn and Shell Trap are equally powerful moves, and Z-Moves/Mega Evolution are shown to be equally powerful gimmicks. Mega Charizard X and Turtonator even have the same typing. I don't see where Charizard pretty easily beats Houndoom but Houndoom can somehow tank a +2 Inferno Overdrive.
Because that charizard is insanely overpowered, it was able to do some damage to a champion's mega (metagross), defeated 9 megas from trainers most likely scouted by Lysandre before fighting Malva, did ok against Siebold way before beginning to train like crazy, and had already done some damage to Houndoom before delivering the final blow.


I don't see how "megas can vary in strength". Only two normal Pokemon have defeated a Mega without needing a transformation: Pikachu , defeating Mega Lucario after it had been softened up, and Hawlucha defeating Mega Absol. In Alola, the three Megas seen have been hit with Z-Moves. Megas never had their "Pikachu loses to Snivy" moment.
"I don't see how megas can vary in strength" It all depends on the pokemon's base strength, random nurse joy's mega audino=/=diantha's mega gardevoir


Flint's Infernape is arguably a Champion-tier Pokemon, because it actually defeated two of Cynthia's team and lost to Garchomp after those prior battles. With actual feats on his side against a trainer many consider the strongest Champion, we could call Flint the strongest E4 seen in the series, at the very least superior to Malva and Wikstrom who performed poorly when we saw them. Trainer and Pokemon are definitely not the norm, for both Flint and Cynthia.[/QUOTE]
Caitlin's Gothitelle fought Garchomp to a stalemate for 10 minutes, so it's not only infernape who can do that, and while nowhere near as big of a feat, Bertha's Hippowdon wrecked Torterra (who is much more comparable to turtonator than an E4 mon) with one NVE attack the moment she got serious.
 
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