Azelf was never really OU for being a sweeper, he was just consistently the number one lead for his ability to set up SR most of the time. Suicide leads just aren't what they used to be since the team viewer allows people to change their lead to counter suicides leads if someone uses them. Besides, Latios and Reuniclus cover the role of offensive Psychic types pretty well.
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Pokemon Online's first 5th gen 'OU' List
- Thread starter d0nut
- Start date
Azelf was never really OU for being a sweeper, he was just consistently the number one lead for his ability to set up SR most of the time. Suicide leads just aren't what they used to be since the team viewer allows people to change their lead to counter suicides leads if someone uses them. Besides, Latios and Reuniclus cover the role of offensive Psychic types pretty well.
Excitable Boy
is a metaphor
One of these newer, shinier toys replaced Azelf.
scratchNsniff
Distraction
Would Deoxys-S be a BL pokemon?
artbomber_97
Ultimate Aritist
Deoxys-S completely outshadows Azelf as a suicide lead.
And Deoxys-S is currently OU.
Blue Harvest
Banned
Deoxys is BL, at least on Wifi.
Haxorusfan
Dragon Trainer
Does anyone know If Shadow Tag Chandelure is going to be Uber or not?? PM me if it is or isn't and if it hasn't been placed yet. When will it be???
Blue Harvest
Banned
Its not Uber yet, but its probably going to be.
Haxorusfan
Dragon Trainer
noooooo. That sucks I mean even without shadow tag he's awesome but noooooooooo
Skater Trainer
Like a Boss
For all the people saying "XXXXX" should be OU, who cares? The only tier that matters is uber, because it's the power cutoff from over centralizing the game. The rest is just balancing issues that fix themselves out over time. If you are saying "Lucario is OU because it's a beast" and the only reason you are saying it is because you want him in OU, and not because you believe it's for the good of the UU metagame, shut up. If you want him to rise just to be in OU, make it so. Does it matter if he isn't OU? No it doesn't. just because he isn't OU doesn't mean you can't use him in OU. People need to stop saying "XXXX should be in OU because it's awesome", they should be saying "Because of XXXX presence in UU, the game has become over centralized on defeating him, and each team has to carry many options to take care of him and he makes some people in the tier completely unusable, etc". Besides, the tiers aren't even really established right now. We can throw names on a list but right now the only established tiers are Uber and all other pokemon. OU, BL, UU, and NU will develop as the game does, people need to calm down and see that. *Rant*
Besides, who says Gen 5 has to follow the format of all previous generations? We aren't limited to just Uber, OU, BL, UU, and NU we can branch off. I am toward a totally reworking of the way we look at tiers, because of the whole flip-flopping of the game. For example with numbered tiers. This is what I mean:
Tier 0: Basically Ubers
Tier 1: The Better half of OU
Tier 2: The Second half of OU
Tier 3: Essentially BL
Tier 4: Better Half of UU
Tier 5: Second Half of UU
Tier 6: This would be NU
While people may think this is unnecessary look at the game, an exampling being UU. Terrakion and friends would wreck normal UU and because of the massive amounts of pokemon in the game, there would be no use of them, so divide the tier. Same thing with OU, look at Blaziken, people are putting him as uber, but I think he wouldn't thrive in Uber at all. The only problem with this system is finding battles, since it would divide the community into 7 different team styles. Maybe not as many as I am suggesting but a working of the system I think is necessary.
Besides, who says Gen 5 has to follow the format of all previous generations? We aren't limited to just Uber, OU, BL, UU, and NU we can branch off. I am toward a totally reworking of the way we look at tiers, because of the whole flip-flopping of the game. For example with numbered tiers. This is what I mean:
Tier 0: Basically Ubers
Tier 1: The Better half of OU
Tier 2: The Second half of OU
Tier 3: Essentially BL
Tier 4: Better Half of UU
Tier 5: Second Half of UU
Tier 6: This would be NU
While people may think this is unnecessary look at the game, an exampling being UU. Terrakion and friends would wreck normal UU and because of the massive amounts of pokemon in the game, there would be no use of them, so divide the tier. Same thing with OU, look at Blaziken, people are putting him as uber, but I think he wouldn't thrive in Uber at all. The only problem with this system is finding battles, since it would divide the community into 7 different team styles. Maybe not as many as I am suggesting but a working of the system I think is necessary.
(Well) Then
It's Lesson Time!
This might be uncalled for but...
Wobbuffet isn't on the list for Ubers?
Wobbuffet isn't on the list for Ubers?
Actually, OU is the tier with the highest priority. Uber has the least. Uber is just a banlist for OU, not a balanced tier. UU is dependent on the stablization of OU, after which a UU cut-off must be made. Other tiers follow suit.
Yes they are. All but NU.
We've already got the new LU tier to better organize things. We're good on tiers.
For the last time, how a Pokemon performs in Uber has no bearing on whether it should be banned or not. As much as I hate to admit it, banning Blaziken was the right thing to do. After Swords Dance, he pretty much 2HKO's the game. With a little residual damage, he virtually OHKO's the game. Outspeeding him is hard after one turn because of Speed Boost, and it's nearly impossible after two. Priority isn't even reliable to revenge kill Blaze if he's still strong on health. And on top of that, Blaziken isn't really all that bad in Uber.
Skater Trainer
Like a Boss
No I understand that, OU is the reason the tiers exists, what I am saying is that the only real important tier is Uber since it is the ban list, all others trickle down
Really? I didn't know that, I thought only Ubers was establish right now, while the others are in pseudo-tier states as of now since their hasn't been much attention to tiers outside of OU
I didn't know that, I thought it was still the Uber-OU-BL-UU-NU structure, I wasn't aware of the LU tier, still, I think there needs to be a better establishment of BL to split OU since I feel it is packed as is.
I think I may have said it wrong. I understand that tiers exist not to solely reflect how a pokemon will perform in it, what I was trying to get across is that there are a lot of good OU pokemon, so many so that the other half of OU is sort of unplayable, which leads me back to the idea of splitting OU, or rather fixing BL so it's a functional tier. I am on the fence with Blaziken, I think it was too quickly banned, and it totally left out the option of running Blaze Blaziken, where it could wallbreak like in UU last gen.
Not really. There's not an OU cut-off for the Uber tier. Uber is dependent on the OU metagame, just like BL is dependent on UU. These are just banlists. The others are actual balanced tiers, and they do trickle down, from OU to NU.
http://91.121.73.228/index.html
Here are the tiers that Pokemon Online is using, as well as the usage stats. Thought you might find that useful.
LU was slipped in between NU and UU to keep NU from being this rediculously huge tier. And BL might develop more as more Pokemon are banned from UU, although I don't expect it to be more than a handful of Pokemon.
Well, first off, that bold part wasn't directed at you in particular. Also, if a Pokemon falls below the 5% cut-off, they will be allowed in UU where they can function and thrive just fine. If you actually split the OUs in half, you'd only have about 20 in each half.
Also, Blaziken absolutely needs Speed Boost to patch up its average speed. Speed Boost Blaziken is OU material...well, Uber material now. But Blaze Blaziken is hardly UU material. Also, if you banned Speed Boost Blaziken only, that just leads to that "How much do we have to neuter Pokemon X before its viable in OU?" kind of thinking, which leads to complicated and unnecessary bans.
Skater Trainer
Like a Boss
Well you understand the point I'm trying to make right? That it doesn't matter if it's not OU, you can still use it, since as long as it's not uber you're good to go.
Thanks, I'll look into it. Just by looking at it, I'm not a fan, it's looks like it's just off usage, not breaking down the game into it's core, like smogon.
That would make sense, my idea would be just make that a general tier, not like the BL of the past, making it a substantial tier as a whole
Well what I am saying is just making BL a more substantial tier. Because of the massive amount of pokemon this gen and the power spike, some good pokemon go into UU and it changes the game there completely, which is why I think the BL tier needs to be established as a playable tier, which is what I am saying in the OU split, basically moving up power UU bringing down weak OU.
I know that, which is why it was so good. Still, even if it isn't UU material, it's still a viable pokemon that someone can play outside of ubers, since without DW it's a good functioning pokemon. This is why gen 5 is such a mess, DW+Complex bans
Oh, yes, and I agree with you there. After all, Sceptile was UU last Gen, but a LO Sceptile could actually perform quite well in the OU environment.
Pretty much. Smogon's running a similar system at the moment, too.
That would make sense, my idea would be just make that a general tier, not like the BL of the past, making it a substantial tier as a whole.(Gt you on a grammar mistake, forgot the period.
Well what I am saying is just making BL a more substantial tier. Because of the massive amount of pokemon this gen and the power spike, some good pokemon go into UU and it changes the game there completely, which is why I think the BL tier needs to be established as a playable tier, which is what I am saying in the OU split, basically moving up power UU bringing down weak OU.
I see what you're saying. This Gen's UU is looking way more powerful than last Gen's. You're saying that BL needs to be made into a tier to make UU like last Gen. But honestly, that's what LU is for. Since this Gen's UU is looking more like last Gen's OU, LU was made to create an environment more like last Gen's UU. It also helps NU remain somewhat undisturbed.
I know that, which is why it was so good. Still, even if it isn't UU material, it's still a viable pokemon that someone can play outside of ubers, since without DW it's a good functioning pokemon. This is why gen 5 is such a mess, DW+Complex bans
Meh, 5th Gen ain't too much of a mess. Come to think of it, the only complex ban I can think of at the moment is the Drizzle+Swift Swim ban.
On a different note, 500th post! Woo-hoo!
Skater Trainer
Like a Boss
There are many other examples, but yeah.
But you can tell smogon is taking more time to see what is going on with the game state more
There has to be some place for it, but I think the BL spot would be better in a way to keep UU weaker in a sense. But I guess it doesn't matter.
But you see a lot more stuff getting banned, like brightpowder and abilities. Drizzle+Swift Swim is only the first, this gen is so huge that there are a bunch of kinks to be worked out. Its a whole different shift than gen3 to gen4 was.
Yeah, as shown by their Drizzle+Swift Swim and Blaziken bans.
I personally like the LU idea. Keeps BL a dedicated banlist instead of a tier.
Eh, I'd consider those bans pretty straightforward, not so complex. I'm a lot happier with that.
(Well) Then
It's Lesson Time!
*Feels slightly ignored*
I still can't tell if Wobby is uber or not....
I Faced a Drizzle + Swift swim before, I changed the weather to sandstorm with the move sandstorm (Thanks shuckle!) and proceeded to play normally. I've won and lost against these teams, they don't seem to be to big of a threat.
I don't see where Blaziken problems are coming from, even with Speed boost. I understand that his offensive stats are above average, but his defenses are below average for wanting to take hits. A bulky water should be a solid counter for Blaziken... unless I'm missing something.
I understand it takes a whole turn, but a solid check on weather teams is manually changing the weather to something else.
Edit: By the Logic That I'm getting and that logic alone, I feel that Blaziken and Sharepdo aren't on the same boat, even though both have the same base ATK.
I still can't tell if Wobby is uber or not....
I Faced a Drizzle + Swift swim before, I changed the weather to sandstorm with the move sandstorm (Thanks shuckle!) and proceeded to play normally. I've won and lost against these teams, they don't seem to be to big of a threat.
I don't see where Blaziken problems are coming from, even with Speed boost. I understand that his offensive stats are above average, but his defenses are below average for wanting to take hits. A bulky water should be a solid counter for Blaziken... unless I'm missing something.
I understand it takes a whole turn, but a solid check on weather teams is manually changing the weather to something else.
Edit: By the Logic That I'm getting and that logic alone, I feel that Blaziken and Sharepdo aren't on the same boat, even though both have the same base ATK.