Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon Weakness to Attacks in Brawl

[woot21]

Let's talk about Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon being weak to certain types of attacks. Yep, some moves are super effective against Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard. They send the Pokemon flying further than an attack of the same strength that isn't of that type. What is know for sure is that fire attacks, like Falcon Punch, send Ivysaur flying further. This has been evidenced by the fact that in the initial weight test for Brawl, that Mario's Forward Smash sent Ivysaur flying further, and KO'ed it at a lower percentage than characters that are now know to be lighter than it.

I'm not sure what other test have been done, but apparently Water based attacks send Charizard flying further, and Grass based attacks send Squirtle further. This of course brings up the question if secondary types, and not just the Starter Triangle, also affect PT's Pokemon. From reading in the Brawl thread it appears that do not, and that resistance is also not applied, so Grass moves don't send Charizard not as far. I am curious about the data that supports secondary weaknesses and resistances not being applied though. This is a topic that warrants further study, and a more in-depth look at it.

woot21 out dawgs

 

[O Fortuna]

Given that damaging water and grass-based attacks are solely limited to PT (no, FLUDD is not a damaging move) then perhaps it would've been fairer for only Charizard's fire-type moves to be super effective against Ivysaur. Otherwise, Pikachu should have the advantage on Squirtle, Rock Smash should do double damage on Jigglypuff, etc. What's the point of implementing something if you're only going to go half way? They should've either gone the whole hog or not at all.

 

[Slick]

xD Classic.

ANyway, what happens to Charizard? Being Fire/Dra--Flying.

 

[woot21]

xD Classic.

ANyway, what happens to Charizard? Being Fire/Dra--Flying.

Apparently he is only sent flying further by Water attacks. No extra affect has been noticed from Pikachu's attacks on Squirtle or Charizard.

What's the point of implementing something if you're only going to go half way? They should've either gone the whole hog or not at all.

And this is with the game being delayed a ridiculous amount of time. Actually, if the game hadn't been delayed it would be interesting to see if this would have been implemented in any way. Also, could anyone give me a weight listing for characters around Ivysaur, Squirtle, and Charizard, or tell me where I can find the weight list. This would be the easiest way to check out the resistances and other weaknesses.

woot21 out dawgs

 

[O Fortuna]

I can't give you a list of weights and that but I am listing, more for my own interest than anyone else's, the resistances and weaknesses there should be had they not done such a half-arsed job with it.

Pikachu
-resists Thunder Jolt
-resists Thunder
-resists Volt Tackle
-resists Fly

Jigglypuff
-weak to Rock Smash
-weak to Aura Sphere
-weak to Force Palm

Ivysaur
-resists Thunder Jolt
-resists Thunder
-resists Volt Tackle
-resists Rock Smash
-resists Water Gun
-resists Waterfall
-resists Bullet Seed
-resists Razor Leaf
-resists Vine Whip
-resists Triple Finish
-resists Aura Sphere
-resists Force Palm
-weak to Flamethrower
-weak to Fly

Charizard
-resists Rock Smash
-resists Bullet Seed
-resists Razor Leaf
-resists Vine Whip
-resists Triple Finish
-resists Aura Sphere
-resists Force Palm
-weak to Thunder Jolt
-weak to Thunder
-weak to Volt Tackle
-weak to Water Gun
-weak to Waterfall
-weak to Rollout

Squirtle
-resists Flamethrower
-resists Water Gun
-resists Waterfall
-resists Triple Finish
-weak to Thunder Jolt
-weak to Thunder
-weak to Volt Tackle
-weak to Bullet Seed
-weak to Razor Leaf
-weak to Vine Whip

Lucario
-resists Skull Bash
-resists Quick Attack
-resists Fly
-resists Withdraw
-resists Bullet Seed
-resists Razor Leaf
-resists Vine Whip
-resists Extremespeed
-resists Rollout
-resists Pound
-resists Rest
-weak to Flamethrower
-weak to Rock Smash
-weak to Aura Sphere
-weak to Force Palm

Hrmm, that would've taken more time but would've infinitely been more rewarding to Pokemon fans. Also, obviously physical attacks (including Smash attacks) which are type-based would also follow the Pokemon type table. Perhaps this is something which could be implemented properly in the next game but I would remove the effects of other fighters' fire attacks affecting Ivysaur (and Lucario).

 

[Luke the Almighty]

You're only thinking of the special moves. Squirtle has plenty of standard water moves.

 

[RedStarWarrior]

I will allow this topic because I feel that it merits a weighted discussion.

In addition, the rules will be revised soon to reflect said changes that I have already implemented. If you feel the necessity to complain in regards to my moderating style or have any questions, feel free to PM me.

 

[woot21]

Lucario
-resists Fly

Lucario is part fighting, and would have the weakness to Fly cancel out the resistance of the Steel type.

Hrmm, that would've taken more time but would've infinitely been more rewarding to Pokemon fans.

Yes it would have rewarding to us, but do you think that the other Smash players with no clue about the resistances and such would have complained about it?

Perhaps this is something which could be implemented properly in the next game but I would remove the effects of other fighters' fire attacks affecting Ivysaur (and Lucario).

I agree, only Pokemon moves should be affected by the Super Effectiveness clause. Though I guess you could say Falcon Punch could still affect Ivysaur and Lucario, since it is a Fire Punch, if you ask Pokemon fans at least, Blaziken can be a Falcon alt.!!!!one11!!over9000!!

As for the weight list, I've heard Squirtle and G&W are the same weight, is that true?

woot21 out dawgs

 

[darkgamerGS]

Hmm... just out of curiosity... do blue and purple Pikmin count as grass attacks? *Hasn't noticed a change in Squirtle's damage, but just wants to make sure*

What else would be interesting are if the Pokemon's abilities came into play... occasional stun from Pikachu, Water/Grass/Fire attacks slightly stronger over 100%, Lucario not being able to flinch... scratch that... getting faster everytime it flinched... Jigglypuff being male or female depending on costume and temporarily infatuating whoever occasionally... okay, maybe that's a bad idea. XP Sorry for the getting off-topic... x.x

 

[Auraninja]

Here's your weight list woot21...

Bowser
Donkey Kong
Snake
Dedede
Charizard
Ganondorf
Samus
Yoshi
Wario
ROB
Ike
Link / Captain Falcon
Wolf
Lucario / Ivysaur
Mario
Luigi
Sonic
Lucas / Ness / Pit
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers / Toon Link
Peach
Marth
Zelda / Sheik
Olimar / Falco
Zero Suit Samus
Fox
Metaknight / Pikachu
Kirby
Squirtle / Mr. Game & Watch
Jigglypuff

 

[Sunraichu]

Hmm...I'm way better at using light characters.

 

[GrizzlyB]

Lucario
-resists Withdraw
-resists Rest

Those are the only other errors I noticed, as Withdraw is a water-type move, not super-effective or not very effective against either Fighting or Steel, and Rest is Psychic, super-effective against Fighting, but not very effective against Steel. Uh, plus Squirtle and Ivysaur resisting Withdraw, and Ivysaur being weak to Rest.

 

[Blazios]

Hmm... just out of curiosity... do blue and purple Pikmin count as grass attacks? *Hasn't noticed a change in Squirtle's damage, but just wants to make sure*

Blue is water, don't think purple is anything.

 

[HERLS]

I've not noticed a change.

Any videos to back this up?

 

[Gargomon251]

I'm not going to read this whole topic, but I'm almost certain that such weakness/resistance has no bearing in Brawl. You might want to ask the good folks over at the smashwiki. And besides, it's hard to compare since no two pokemon are the same weight. Also, last I checked, using any attack does the SAME damage no matter who it hits. The only variable is positioning. I've had Fire Jump Punch do between 23% and 27% on the first use, and on the same opponent. Plus there's only one water "attack" in the game.

 

[Rakurai]

I'm not going to read this whole topic, but I'm almost certain that such weakness/resistance has no bearing in Brawl.

I did a test in training mode (Where stale moves don't apply), which I posted the results of back in the main Brawl topic, but I'll repost it here.

Using G&W, hitting Ivysaur with a fully charged forward smash produced the loudest crowd cheer (Which is based completely on how quickly your opponent is sent flying, and greater flight speed = greater flight distance, provided nothing gets in the way) at exactly 28%, whereas it was at 38% for Squirtle. Doing the same thing with a fully charged down smash, it was 73% for Ivysaur, and 61% for Squirtle.

That seems to be relatively solid proof that weaknesses do apply.

Also, last I checked, using any attack does the SAME damage no matter who it hits.

It's not the damage that changes, it's the knockback.

Plus there's only one water "attack" in the game.

Squirtle's down smash, Nair, up smash, and uncharged neutral B are all considered water attacks. You can tell by the sound they make when they connect.

 

[Gargomon251]

Using G&W, hitting Ivysaur with a fully charged forward smash produced the loudest crowd cheer (Which is based completely on how quickly your opponent is sent flying, and greater flight speed = greater flight distance, provided nothing gets in the way) at exactly 28%, whereas it was at 38% for Squirtle. Doing the same thing with a fully charged down smash, it was 73% for Ivysaur, and 61% for Squirtle.

That seems to be relatively solid proof that weaknesses do apply.

Why don't you actually look how far they are sent flying? I don't think "crowd cheer" is a very accurate gauge of knockback. And if it's supposed to be a weakness, how come damage is unchanged? I'm going to look if there's any mention of this on the Smashboards.

 

[Rakurai]

Why don't you actually look how far they are sent flying? I don't think "crowd cheer" is a very accurate gauge of knockback. And if it's supposed to be a weakness, how come damage is unchanged? I'm going to look if there's any mention of this on the Smashboards.

I did, actually, and it was about the same distance in the case of the forward smash.

Regarding this subject being on Smashboards, it's here.

 

[woot21]

I've been doing some research, and Squirtle is definitely not weak to Electric attacks. He and Game & Watch got killed at the same percentage from Pikachu's uncharged FSmash from the middle of Final Destination. Lucario is also not weak to Fire attacks, since Ivysaur got killed at a lower percentage from a Falcon Punch then Lucario. For Charizard I'm having a little more trouble since it Charizard doesn't have an equal in weight. So I can't tell if Electric is Super Effective against it, doubting that, or if Water moves do more, since there are so few Water moves, that do anything other than just push.

This would also apply to resistances, I should probably check what is the low end for a Falcon Punch kill on Game & Watch, compared to Squirtle to test for resistances. More test to be done by me.

woot21 out dawgs