Captain Brain
Well-Known Member
This thread is much like its counterpart FAQ of Maddiejoan. I made this thread because much of the info given to us by OGT is in the original New Dub Voice Discussion and no one has the time to read 161 pages of info, so I took the useful info from that thread and put in a condensed thread. It is under construction. FAQ of M.J. is almost done. Most of the major modifications should be done by the end of this week. It is easier to work with when made in thread. Don't try reading it yet as you'll get confused. FAQ of M.J has proven useful that is why I mmade this.;025;
"How can ANY voice actor be expected to work with script writers who have no idea about the characters they are writing for?"
I hope this will be helpful. I know the scriptwriter, and he's been writing adaptations for Pokemon since the beginning of Season 5 in 2002. He also wrote the Meowth short "Gotta Dance" and the lyrics for its featured song, as well as Pokemon movie 7. I think you're possibly mistaking the unfamliar sounds of the new voices for writing errors.
As far as the original voice actors go, there is a clause in their 4 Kids contracts that forbids them from doing any show 4 Kids had produced (whether they were involved in it or not) that went on to another production house, without the consent of 4 Kids Productions. When Pokemon USA went to the president and asked for permission to use the original voice actors, they were told no. The original voice actors may not have been individually approached to do the new season, but that is because the executive decision not to let the original voice actors continue had already been made.
I really think u guys should just get over this stuff. The regular VAs r not gonna do pokemon anymor the new VAs are. I think u guys should just give it some time. It hasnt even been a week since it came out. If u have any1 2 blame its Norman. The ppl from PUSA asked Norman in a meeting if they could use the the original VAs he said no. So PUSA had 2 find new ppl 4 the job. But, not 2 b rude, all the VAs r whining and complaning that they didnt even get 2 have a chance. i dont any maddie, or veronica 2 quote this and wtf?? ur full of S*** bcuz inside u kno its tru
over and out,guitarfreak
The point is, and I agree, that if you're going to blame anybody for this situation, you need to look at Norman Grossfeld, president of 4 Kids Productions. He is the one who made the decision not to let the original voice actors continue doing Pokemon elsewhere. No one else is to blame. Your letters going to Pokemon USA and Turner are misdirected. Mr. Grossfeld made the decision to keep the voice actors from doing the next season, no matter what others are saying. Politics.
TAJ did much more than clean up during those first few seasons. After Season 1 was produced and directed by TAJ Productions at Button Sound in NYC, they opened up their own recording facility, where Seasons 2-5 of Pokemon were written, directed, recorded and mixed by members of the TAJ team. 4 Kids oversaw the process of course, but the work was done at TAJ. In order for the idea that TAJ was going to produce an inferior product to be true, you would have to say that Seasons 1-5 were inferior, which of course, they are not.
4 Kids has lost a lot of friends over the years with their business practices. There were shows such as Fighting Foodons where the suppliers just got tired of dealing with them. The budgets 4 Kids submitted to PUSA grew larger every year, while revenues (most notably in the last 3 years) shrank. I think they were at the end of their rope, and getting little to no support from 4 Kids other than the status quo.
I do know that the original voice actors were approached awhile back about doing Pokemon for Season 9, but it wasn't 4 Kids who approached them. So anyone who says they had no idea what was happening is not being honest, for whatever reason.
I, for one can tell you that the new VAs DO care a lot about their work. Things appear to be a bit unclear still as far as how the production situation will shake out, but there's no turning back. Knowing that, wouldn't it be better to take a positive approach to what's going on and offer support and constructive thoughts, instead of heaping so much negative energy on everything that the whole production could be in jeopardy?
I think it's ironic that anyone would question NewBrock's intentions on posting here - postings completely free of vitriol and resentment. I'm frankly surprised at the amount of anger that has come from the original voice actors. These are accomplished professionals who have an ongoing relationship with one of the most succesful cartoon entertainment companies around. My prediction is that things will become much clearer over the next few months. Wouldn't we rather still have Pokemon around?
Regarding the music, the music track does come from Japan separately (otherwise it wouldn't have been able to be used in the 10th Anniversary special), but 4 Kids basically redid the music for the performance royalties. A lot of money is made from broadcast music (thus the name of the company BMI - Broadcast Music Inc. There is also the American Society Of Composers, Authors and Publishers, or ASCAP). Every time music is used on a TV show there is a 'cue sheet' filled out stating every bit of music used, who wrote it, who publishes it, the length of the cue, etc..Royalties are then paid to the writers and publishers every 3 months. To give you an idea of the amount of money made, Paul Anka, who wrote the theme for the old Tonight Show starring Johnny Carson made between $50-100,000 each year for that theme being played twice a night, five nights a week.
I was informed by reliable sources that the actual video of the Japanese version wasn't shipped to the States until the end of March. Everything else previously mentioned had to be done between then and the third week of April.
Yes, the decision was made earlier. But my point is they had around 3 weeks to get it done from start to finish, which I would say is an amazing feat in itself.
And you, and every other major voice actor had been approached to do the new season, although the offer was not from 4 Kids. And you all refused, some saying no because, among other things, it was not going to be done with 4 Kids, and only 4 Kids could do the job correctly. I would say that sounds like your allegiance is with 4 Kids, and not Pokemon.
It took 3 weeks or so to do the translation, write the adaptation, get approval, do the dub, mix, do the video, get approvals back and forth, and send to everyone. 4 Kids were months ahead in terms of production because they had the materials that far in advance. Your attempts to miminalize the process are feeble.
Actors said no, and Al and Norman said no. Everyone said no. But the actors were approached. It's simple. I'm frankly looking forward to the complete explanation from the original voice actors.
This might be of interest to everyone who's been involved in discussing the replacing of VAs. I saw this in Wilkipedia. It concerns the 4 Kids version of the TV show Sonic X.
Criticisms of 4Kids version
Like many other 4Kids productions, their version of Sonic X has been met with critical reaction regarding editing some of the more intense scenes and dialogue to make the series more child-friendly (This also applies to other 4Kids dubs). Additionally it is known that the voice actor from the Sonic games, Ryan Drummond, offered to voice Sonic for the dub - but was refused by 4Kids for not living in New York (it has also been said that Drummond even offered to re-locate to New York, and was still refused). This eventually lead to Drummond being removed (without notification) as the voice actor for the Sonic games, after Sega replaced the entire voice cast for the games with the 4Kids cast following the death of Deem Bristow, the game voice actor for Dr. Eggman.
This is in contrast to the Japanese original, which (ironically) has always shared a unified voice cast between the games and the anime. As is standard practice for 4Kids licenses, all of the music in Sonic X was replaced with new music, created by their in-house composer to cut licensing costs. This even meant removing Live and Learn, the headline song from Sonic Adventure 2, which was played in Episode 38 as Sonic and Shadow fought the Biolizard. Many fans have sent petitions for uncut DVDs; 4Kids has made no comment on the subject.
The word on the anime street is that the 10th ann. special will be gone through with a fine tooth comb before the dvd comes out.
Erica Schroeder, although a great VA, is NOT the new voice of Ash. I would advise you to take this with a grain of salt...
I wouldn't trust the links you give us. My only purpose in responding is that Erica is NOT Ash. I doubt very much that she wants to be thought of Ash as well. The credits listed have lots of errors. And your anger at PUSA at all of this happening - this is totally and 100% the fault of 4 Kids for not letting their voice actors participate in the new Pokemon season. I'm a little perplexed that no one seems to have read posts from earlier on. 4 Kids was approached and asked if the original voice actors could do Season 9, and they said NO. Do you understand NO? There is a clause in their contract that forbids them from doing any work on a 4 Kids show that went on to another production facility, without the approval of 4 Kids. They said no. Does that tell you something about their concern for the well being of Pokemon? If they really were going to help out in the passing of the torch, wouldn't they have allowed the voice actors to continue elsewhere? They didn't. TAJ can't even get the sound library of the original Pokemon voices from 4 Kids. The Big Al is more or less spot on with what's happening, and it's not pretty. What does THAT say?
The reason the original voice actors didn't know is that 4 Kids already had said no. But they DID know - they were approached by outside forces, and they refuse to admit it. The timing may not have been perfect, but this all happened months ago. I tell you, if the voice actors had (and maybe they did) gone to 4 Kids and asked to be part of Pokemon Season 9, they would've been told no. There is so much ego going on with this that it makes me have to respond to this, otherwise I would leave it alone. Which I will do now.
I've been friends with a lot of the VAs for years - since before the days of Slayers. I can't say much more than that, or my information dries up. This is a difficult situation, and I'm just adding my 2 cents. Some will think I'm wrong and some won't. I would be happy if all of this discussion would start people thinking with their heads and not just their hearts. Does it seem logical that Pokemon USA, who owns Pokemon, would want to short-change their own show? If, for the sake of discussion, the original VAs hadn't ever been contacted about doing Season 9, doesn't it stand to reason that 4 Kids was less than forthcoming with them? They must've known that the show was going elsewhere...I say 'must've', because it seems like we're stuck in 'he said she said' territory.
I agree that WE should all get along. We're the fans. I'm sure lots of people are lurking on this, and other forums. I don't understand why there can't be more support and good wishes for things to come. It seems to me that the realities of business aren't going to allow things to go back as they were.
The show will go down the toilet because the voice actors, the director, the writers, and the recording engineers got changed."
The writer wrote the adaptations for the show from 2002-present, and the recording engineers recorded and mixed the show for the first 5 years.
Originally Posted by maddiejoan
No. The current writer constantly had to have his material re-written because it wasn't adequate to air in it's submitted form, and the only engineer TAJ has now never engineered without 4Kids supervision.
All of that is pure 4 Kids spin. Political heresay. I feel for the fans in this situation, because all they want is to keep having their show. You have constantly provided half truths during all of this, and it's a shame. I'm done. Truth will out.
Not to defend 4 Kids, but I do know there was pressure from the WB to change certain scenes visually that the WB deemed too racy or 'unamerican' for American audiences. As far as the music goes, though, there's no one to blame but them for what they did. It was mainly a grab for the royalties as well.
I've known Jimmy Zoppi for 4 years now - since the '02 Big Apple anime convention. I asked him if he signed up at Bulbagarden or here. He said no. He said he's scanned the boards here from time to time, but he's never even been to Bulbagarden. Whoever is posting as Zoppi is a fraud.
It sounds like a good time to again remind you that the special was animated and written in Japan, and like everything else from the past 8 seasons, was adapted for the US market. I have seen rumors that it somehow was made for the USA market first, but I assure you it isn't true. If you carefully watch the animation - especially in the beginning and at the end, you will see that there is no way that the 'lip flap' was created with the English language in mind. You may be right about the necessity of tightening things up, etc., but you need to look to Japan and the creators for that to be accomplished.
Very objective points are brought up, and deserve a good long look. Even if the real inside scoop is not available to everyone yet, a simple question might help things out. Who stands to gain by telling the truth here and who doesn't? Hurling negative comments, bad feelings and the like only serves to characterize the person expressing them. I haven't seen one negative comment come from PUSA, but I sure can't say that in regard to others. Sour grapes indeed.
There is an impression out there that the new voice actors are somehow only making a fraction of the money the original VOs are making, which is not true. My understanding is the reason for the budget cuts has everything to do with the astronomical fees charged by 4 Kids over the years. Revenues were going down every season past a certain point, but overall budgets keep increasing, and I know for a fact that the VOs are NOT getting rich working at 4 Kids. I've heard stories about VOs getting a small raise a few years back, but because of some 'creative' restructuring concerning how hours were booked and paid, the VOs actally got a pay cut. This while 4 Kids was making millions and millions of dollars. Not that this is unusual in the world of business of course, but the only companies that are truly in existance to aid their consumers are usually not for profit, and that's stretching it sometimes.
4 Kids had been having problems with the WB ever since they took on the Fox Box, which was in direct competition with WB's Saturday morning programming. Bridges have been slowly burned over the years, to the point of what you see here. There are a few who post here who's opinion of how their business has been handled has been shameful, and my opinion is this change is not only good, but necessary to Pokemon's continued existance.
I don't work At PUSA, but I really think the old VA thing is over.
There has never been a union performance done by ANY VAs for 4 Kids, except for the very beginning when Pokemon was advertised union in commercials and in WB promos. The idea that the old VAs are union and the new aren't is wrong. Some are and some aren't. The ones that are use fake names, and the ones that aren't don't. Some VAs don't care either way. 4 Kids does not like union. Does that somehow make sense?
As far as union verses non-union, I only mentioned that again because this was spoken of in the past as somehow evidence that the old vas were somehow different, or better. When work first started at 4 Kids, there was a small group of dedicated, loyal, hard working artists that always rose to the challenge of whatever was needed. This was back when Pokemon was on at 6:30 in the morning daily, and when 4 Kids' stock price was around $2. Pokemon's success was a bit of a surprise to everybody involved, and as a result 4 Kids could've taken a different route at that point - one that would recognize the team that helped to make Pokemon a success, or one that would allow their employees and independent contractors only as little as possible to continue their work there. They opted for the latter. It has finally caught up with them - at least in this situation, and their egos are still way too big to admit their mistakes. But it always comes out in the wash.
In television, if you do work for a program using film, you need to belong to the Screen Actors Guild (SAG), and if you do video, you belong to AFTRA. Most TV stations have agreed not to show programs using non union actors, although over the past few years things have changed - anime being one of the reasons. When a company hires union actors and does union productions, they have a minimum amount of money they have agreed to pay, as well as pension, welfare, health insurance, etc.. They also agree to pay residuals on future broadcasts of their work. Well, 4 Kids wanted none of that, and so they only hire non-union actors, although in the very beginning when Pokemon was taking off in a big way any commercials and promo spots were paid union.
There was a time when union actors were most likely better than non union, since one couldn't join either union without having done union work already (there's a catch-22 for you), but almost all entertainment-related unions have lost most of their power, unless you look at the AA rated TV shows and movies. Some of the VAs for 4 Kids are still union, but to protect their status they've taken phony names for non union work. I think union work is still preferable, but these days you work where the work is.
The entire new VA cast is not being replaced. The show is scheduled to go on in September with the correct number of new shows. I was told there are most likely 1 or 2 replacements, but that's as much as I could find out.
Also, I've heard rumor that 4 Kids is not the company they once were. They have dramatically downsized, and have drastically cut down their production schedule, to the point where they've purchased several shows already completed. With all the money they spent with all those hours to fill on Fox and shameful ratings as a result, I'm not surprised.
The ratings for Pokemon and Yuggio were usually at the top of the broadcast animation ratings: low to mid 4s to low 5s. The highest ANY Foxbox/Fox shows ever got was around 2.3, and that was for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which is original animation and was reputed to have a small army of people working on it. Most of the time the ratings were in the low 1s, or .8s or .9s. Shameful.
The casting director is *not* looking for voices on "most" of the roles either.
I hope you get on lots of their new shows if they in fact have them, since you are one of their absolute best VAs.
I think only 1 new VA is getting replaced.
I'm not sure of how that translates to the actual number of people, but that figure sounds right.
CN will be running the new Pokemon. Some say cable has less viewership than broadcast, but somehow SpongeBob has managed.
By the way - I loved the poster who was angry at the new VAs performing on the most recent episode. It just points up how much of this anger is misdirected, and most likely stirred by the same VAs the poster didn't like when they thought they were the new ones.
4 Kids has LOTS of cash (thank you Cabbage Patch et al), and their philosophy these days (and also most likely since day 1) is "Throw enough s**t against the wall and something will stick". This is a company who couldn't care less about the shareholders, and laughs at them all behind their backs. And just because something is on the air doesn't mean anyone is watching.
I've stayed out of opinions regarding old vs. new voices, but this particular YouTube short has made me realize something interesting. 90% of the new voice actors have injected more energy and cadence into their first outing than I suspected at first, but hearing them side by side showed me. My actual favorite change is James. I know most will disagree, but I think he goes where he's really always been character-wise, when you consider his history and upbringing. At first I also thought that the new VAs were for the most part merely imitating the original VAs, but I was wrong. They're already throwing something new and different into Pokemon, and after 8 years the change is going to do it good.
This is going to be a great season. Production is already underway.
There is only ONE replaced VA from the new stable. All the rest are the same from the TV special. An they're great.
Lots of interesting posts to respond to. I also appreciate the positive nature of almost all of the most recent posts, because PUSA is listening, and although their decisions are going to be those that benefit Pokemon in the broadest sense possible (if you had to make those decisions you would too), supporting the new direction can only be helpful. Voicing constructive criticism is as well, but I'm afraid severe bashing on either side of the VA aisle only serves to hurt the basher.
I honestly cannot say which new VA was replaced, but it has been touched on already. It's good to keep in mind that since the Mirage special was voiced several months ago, getting into a regular work routine has only benefitted the VAs, and everyone involved for that matter. Everything is moving ahead, and any recurring characters from previous seasons will be looked at with the intent on preserving the essence of the character. If it is decided that the original voice falls short, they'll deal with that as well.
As far as the James discussion, the fact that he comes from a well to do family and desires to leave it behind makes the new voice direction all the better (and perhaps funnier), IMO. There is an episode in the new season where James revisits a place that was part of his life as a child, and it's touching. Also, you're going to see into who James really is as a caring, sensitive person, and the new voice direction fits this like a glove. That's my definition of 'great'.
Again, this had everything to do with 4 Kids NOT allowing the original VAs to go on and do Pokemon at TAJ. The VAs ALL wanted to continue (except for Veronica who told TAJ when asked that no one could produce Pokemon other than 4 Kids), but 4 Kids said NO. The clause in their contract that forbids them from doing so is illegal, and will probably be proven in court to be so one day, but for now 4 Kids is reaping what they sow, but probably doesn't give a rat's behind about it anyway. I am tired of the lies and half truths that have been promoted around here by some, but I certainly don't blame the fans. I blame the ones in the know who have purposely misled everyone here to think that somehow PUSA are the bad guys. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just ask The Big Al or Harold The Wonder Dog. They may not speak the way everyone would like them to, but they are closer to the truth than the VAs who claim to be 'in the know'.
Now here's a point we agree on. It *is* ultimately a meaningless clause - which raises a question - if 4 Kids is so benevolent in their treatment of employess and fans, why put a clause in a contract like that in the first place? A more relevant clause stating what you describe as 4 Kids' real intent would be better, I would think. Perhaps after having to spend money in court to prove such a clause meaningless, one might think it a bit more vitriolic and less innocent and "boilerplate" than it seems.
PUSA was told directly by Norman at 4 Kids that they had to get soundalikes because of the 4 Kids contract, and was told face to face in a meeting between the 2 companies to boot.
The original VAs were not being held in any 'jail'- that is, as long as they didn't mind being harrassed and fired.
I have no direct evidence that the 2 VAs you mention were hired by TAJ, but I'm fairly certain they were fired by 4 Kids. For what reason I can't say. But this all has the aroma of less than savory business practices.
New Brock is in fact who he says he is. Proof that I know? I emailed him several times at his private email address (which I got from a mutual anime friend - he responded knowing everything that was attributed to him on this board). I thought he went a long way to heal some of the rifts that rippled around here. I wish he had stuck around, but I know how busy he is now.
PUSA is not saying that your viewership means nothing to them, but they're not going to change course if they're getting between 50 - and 100 emails from upset fans, while at the same time thousands of happy emails from others.
NewBrock happens to be a huge anime fan, and has watched and enjoyed Rachel's work for years, just like all of us. I think if you were in his position you might have reacted the same way too.
The only spitting done around here is from 4 Kids. Proof? Why in the world would PUSA NOT want the original VAs to do the show? Money? Please. How much money do you imagine Pokemon USA has with everything going on? Why would they not use the original VAs unless they couldn't? Are we talking about the difference of a few dollars per hour session fees? Doesn't this seem strange to you at all?
This is not to discourage anyone from writing anybody about anything, but I've heard that episode 901 is complete, the dubbing for 902 is in progress, the first 5 episodes have been written and approved by the powers that be, and everyone involved is excited and happy to move ahead. Am I right? Do I have proof? We're all heading into the 3rd week of June, and PUSA has to be prepared for a September Season 9 start date. Where would *we* be if we had that broadcast schedule to follow? It makes sense.
The way I understand it, a good chunk of scripts need to be seen and approved before meaningful dubbing can begin. It stands to reason - I think initially PUSA and whoever else is involved want to see the way the characters are portrayed, and also to make sure the Pokemon and attack names are correct.
An interesting sideline to this is a previous assertion that scripts needed to be rewritten before they could be sent for approval back in previous 4 Kids times. I'm told currently that very few changes have had to be made. I do remember Maddie stating that she could tell the difference in scripts between the first time she would do a session and when rewrites were in place. I'm starting to suspect that these changes were made AFTER 4 Kids had submitted the script THEY had 'corrected' - meaning any changes had little to do with the original draft. I suspect some ego at work here. Not that 4 Kids doesn't have every right to change and edit any way they see fit, but to blame the writer for changes (which was what was expressed to Maddie by the Pokemon producers and others involved - no offense intended to Maddie) seems wrong. My buddy told me that there were no more than 3 or 4 cue corrections asked for, and when you're dealing with as 25 page script, that sounds fairly competent to me.
Excuse me, but I think if you knew that someone was saying that they thought someone else was full of it when you know they aren't, I would think you would want them to know. I have no interest whatsoever in starting any flame wars. As a matter of fact, I came on this list because I had heard that flame wars were being stirred against people who couldn't even defend themselves. I think it's fine to hate anyone you like, and plonk anyone you like, but defaming someone's character when you don't even know the person is a bit over the edge.
And yes - I heard New Brock's new Brock today, listening to a rough mix of a new Pokemon episode. I thought it sounded great, and quite a bit different from the TV special. Funny thing is, the Mirage Brock started to grow on me...maybe someday they'll do a "Pokemon All Growed Up", and then that voice can return.
If I give my sources for whatever it is you're talking about, I won't have sources anymore. But I wouldn't be wasting my time spouting BS on a list where 95% of the readers either don't agree, don't want to hear it, or don't think it's true anyway. But I think's it's important to say what I know, so I am.
I meant the other VAs that have been trashed around here since the TV special. I have complete confidence in New Brock's ability to defend himself, but there are others who for one reason or another can't spend the time here to carry on a dialog.
I honestly don't know what it is about New Brock that's gotten under your skin.
I heard/saw a reference mix of episodes 901 and 902 today. 901 is done, 902 isn't. That's true - no biggie. Why is that so hard to believe? I heard Ash, May, Max, (new) Brock, Team Rocket, and the Pokemon. Brock truly is listening to what folks here have to say, as well as injecting his own spin at the same time. In a way, I think it was liberating for him to feel good about adding his own twist. The truth is he's got a great ear, and the 'gravel' he put into the TV special I think had more to do with feedback at the session than his own preference. But it wasn't TAJ's feedback. There's a lot of static in the world of committee decisions.
New Brock is a HUGE anime fan. He's younger than some in the biz as well, and believe me, he's a Lillis fan. Why would someone want to upset a person they looked up to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Butler
The group of new VAs as a whole knocked Lillis and the group of old VAs out of their jobs. Not only that, he then went on to make claims about contracts that Lillis (we aren't talking about Maddie) knew to be false.
Say I was working at a Dunkin Donuts, and one day without reason the entire staff was fired by the manager and replaced. I would rightfully be angry at the manager, and resentful of the cheap substitutes being used in my place.
What makes me so angry about the VA situation is that these old VAs loved their jobs. It was obvious, and still is. These characters were parts of their lives. I feel that when you are hired because of the almighty dollar, as these new VAs were, you are not motivated to do your best, and as a result, everyone suffers.
Let's go back to that Dunkin Donuts again. If I really loved my job there, I would do it even for the smallest amount of money. The same goes for the old VA's---Taylor, Lillis, Stuart, and Maddie have all said they'd go back for the same pay just as long as all of them were rehired.
I have another belief I hold strongly. If the mighty dollar is your rise, it will be your downfall as well.
I truly respect your heartfelt views on all of this, but you are sadly putting the blame in the wrong place. The new Vas as a whole had NOTHING to do with 'knocking' the original VAs out of their jobs.
The contract clause New Brock mentioned was referenced to another VA on their own blog site. The clause is out in the open now. Hey - I've seen the clause too. As Maddie now admits, it's powerless. But it seems that no one was willing to choose to fight the clause and go for keeping on with Pokemon. That's because none of them wanted to lose their work at 4 Kids. They chose 4 Kids work over Pokemon.
You can think whatever you want to about the original VA's reasons for not doing the new Pokemon season, but the fact is they aren't. Someone was going to do it, and if you blame the ones who take their place thinking that the new VAs somehow had any power on who does the new voices, then you must not be thinking business practices through. What riles me up the most is that some of the original VAs are doing their damnedest to obscure the fact that 4 Kids refused to let them work on Pokemon. 4 Kids would fire *anybody* at the drop of a hat if someone looked crosseyed at them.
I can't really get too specific about the voices (some have changed sound wise, and one is new), but I can guarantee you that other than those comments saying "Ew! That SUCKS! Dump em!", a lot of comments from here were addressed. You may not be 100% pleased, but if you'll give it a good listen, you'll be able to hear directly that everyone's been listening to the fans, which is as it should be. I wish you could all believe how important those who truly love Pokemon (and wish to help, not rip) are at this point...
I guess you don't know how hard it is to get work in the VA/anime business. 'Out of respect'? Please. There is no loss of respect because the new VAs were offered POKEMON and they ACCEPTED! It's not like if they refused PUSA would've gone back to the original VAs. They were flat out refused by 4 Kids.
The ones who are still working there regularly are going to say glowing things about 4 Kids. I know of more than a few people who hate that place. 4 Kids has the worst reputation possible in the cartoon business. Go to Yahoo.com finance and see what they're saying abut 4 Kids stockholder treatment. It's so negative.
You don't have to believe anything I say. As a matter of fact, I'm starting to think I'm taking way too much space around here anyway.
Here's what I know. The president of TAJ called all 4 major VAs on the phone back in early 2006 and told them personally what was happening. He said he was aware of the clause, but also said legal opinion had stated that the clause was unenforceable. He also said that PUSA wanted them all to continue doing Pokemon. They all said no, but for differing reasons that I can't be 100% sure of. I don't care what the VAs are saying now. This is what happened.
I don't know Kayzie, and Zoppi *has* been mysterious about all of this. For all I know he might be one of the VAs on the new show...I know someone said it was true.
I guess all I can ask you is...put on your BS o' meter and ask yourself - if the original VAs wanted to be on the show now, why wouldn't they be? Because a company like PUSA would cut off their nose despite their face and not even ask them to be on the show anymore? It makes no sense to me in any way shape or form to do that, unless 4 Kids said no. Even if they weren't approached one by one. Which I think they were. But no matter. If 4 Kids said no, why are you mad at PUSA?
I've known pretty much everybody who's had anything to do with Pokemon since 1997 (or is it 98? Or 96?!). I know Maddie and Eric and Veronica and Rachael and Michael Haigney and Norman and Darron and Larry and Armen and Kathy and Zoppi and a few others. I consider SOME of the business people, the VAs and producers my friends. I was lucky enough to watch a reference mix of the first episode today. It isn't the final mix, but I can hear what's going on. I'm thrilled at the result!
You should all know how much they value the fans' input and affection.
I didn't actually hear a tape recording of the phone calls, so I said I 'think' they were. I don't wanna any bowing going on anywhere. I just want you to consider what I'm saying. And I previously said if I divulge my sources I won't have them anymore. It appears I'm stuck between a Rock type and a hard place...
No. I'm not Lawrence Neves (I don't know who he is - sorry). I'm trying to figure out something to say, because I realize that this is getting a little silly. If I say I'm not him, you won't believe me, right? If I tell you who I am, then I'm toast, right?
I don't work for PUSA. But I was at TAJ today, and I saw the 1st episode rough mix. As soon as I can spill the total beans, I will. But my only point is to ask you questions that will help you to come to some real answers. I'm telling you - I love everyone around here talking all things Pokemon. I just wish the flaming would stop.
I'm not indifferent. I'm just trying to explain why they lost their job in the first place. I'm not even trying to pass any judgement on their decision to not do Pokemon. It's a tough business these days, and 4 Kids is one, if not the only, place in NYC where VAs can make a decent wage doing cartoons. I'm not upset because they wanted to stay with 4 Kids and continue with their steady gigs. I'm upset because they're not being straight forward on what really happened. I wouldn't even mind *that* if they hadn't come out and maligned the new VAs for something they passed on.
Yes, they passionately worked on Pokemon. Yes, it had become a part of them. Yes, they genuinely love Pokemon. But they love their work at 4 Kids more, and that's the hard truth.
Your voices ARE being heard. That's really what I've been trying to say. I apologize if I've said too much tonight, but my passion for you and Pokemon is running high these days, and it's important for everyone to know that what is being said IS being heard. The negativity is being treated as such, but's what's more dynamic than voices filled with passion and love?
I can't really do much other than tell you what I believe and know. I've said before that my opinion is PUSA will do what they feel is in their best overall interest for the success of their company, but they're listening. Good night.
Let's see how much of this I can respond to without getting my head handed to me on a platter. I was in the studio yesterday on a couch with a friend of mine on one side, and 2 PUSA people on the other. We listened to a track with just voices - no music, no edits, no FX. When I first heard Ash I elbowed my buddy, looked at him and mouthed "New Ash?" He smiled. I couldn't ask anything more because we were listening, and I was a guest. Ash sounds different than the special. That's what I can say. But everybody else sounded like the VAs on the TV special, but more comfortable in their roles. Funny thing is, those who didn't like James and Meowth and May said they didn't like them because they didn't sound like the originals. Some said to not worry about the originals and do what seems right. I think they're on the road to the latter.
I don't know if they're going to use original music, or some new music, or all new music. I don't know anybody from that dep't, and there was nothing to hear yesterday. I'll see what I can find out. No one knew anything about that.
I do know the scriptwriter, and he said he would be coming up with new titles, BUT...and here's the but...the story I got from him is he's been titling scripts for 4 years now, and they only used 1 or 2 of his the whole time. I've seen the titles they've been using (like we all have), and...if 4 Kids think they're funny, then they need to get outside opinions (Claydol - Big And Tall? Puhleeze). I can't really run new titles past you, since that would be blowing the new season.
They're dealing with Pokemon voices the way they've always dealt with them - if a Pokemon's name has been changed for English, they use a new voice. If there has already been a recording of the Pokemon in question, they 'pull it' as much as they can. If not, they'll use new VAs to do it.
As far as me being New Brock....as you all might say...BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!! With all due respect to him, I know things about Pokemon that he couldn't possibly know. I've been friends with those guys since the very beginning, when they were dubbing voices at Buttons Sound on East 46th St. in NYC. And the only reason I mention that is not to hurt NewBrock's feelings, but to give the great butler a mini-plonk. With love though! I mean it. I understand everything that's going on around here, and it only proves how great Pokemon is.
Now I didn't say that the titles weren't going to be clever...I just said they were going to be much better than they were. Some may groan still at what they consider puns. It's part and parcel to what Pokemon has come to be in the US of A. The problem with the Japanese titles is that they're so straight ahead and not funny. It's like watching Team Rocket in Japanese and seeing them go through all of their hilarious contortions, and then read the translations...there's nothing funny in what they're saying in Japanese most of the time. So it is with the titles. The titles need to change - only to something better, me thinks.
Hey, relax! I said that the VA actors sounded like the same actors, not that they hadn't changed. Brock is not chain smoking anymore, May has dialed back a few years, and Max is on the new high fiber diet we've all heard about. I have to say, as much as I love you, you're being awfully ornery about all of this. Why would you want to shut down this thread? At this point the only flaming I hear is coming from you. Come on. Isn't it better to talk abut this stuff than sweep it under the rug?
They lost their roles because 4 Kids refused to let them continue on with Pokemon with PUSA due to a clause in their 4 Kids VA contract that although unenforceable, would cause 4 Kids to stop employing them to do other 4 Kids shows. Not replacing the VAs could have been avoided *only* if the old VAs had agreed not to honor their contracts and stop working for 4 Kids. They refused. It was the original VA's decision as a result of 4 Kids' mandate. There's nothing wrong with that - the only lie is that PUSA is being villified as a result.
I'm not saying you have to like any of it. I totally understand your frustration. I just wish you'd get straight who's telling the truth and who's not. PUSA had nothing to do with the animation either. They drew it in Japan, and sent it over in late March. Do you think PUSA 's going to call Japan and tell them they have to redraw it?
I guess I'll have to stop all of this pretty soon. This isn't rocket science. Once more - the original VAs were called on the phone one-by-one by TAJ. TAJ said PUSA wanted the original VAs to continue doing Season 9 of Pokemon, but 4 Kids was not going to let them continue doing Pokemon because of a clause in their contracts. However, TAJ believed the clause was illegal, and wanted the VAs to know that, and would even be willing to assist them in fighting any legal problems as a result. That's because in a meeting, initially 4 Kids refused PUSA, and TAJ was calling to let the old VAs know that. BUT - one by one, all of the old VAs didn't want to lose their 4 Kids gig, so they refused TAJ. Because 4 Kids refused them in the first place.
Originally Posted by maddiejoan
No. The lie is that PUSA or TAJ offered us the chance to decide.
You can keep saying we "refused" to do the roles --it doesn't make it true, hon.
Do you mean *neither* PUSA or TAJ offered you the chance to decide? Of course you decided. You knew about it. You spoke to TAJ, and they told you everything, and then you decided to stay with 4 Kids. You may think that having to decide for practical reasons to stay with 4 Kids is not really a decision, but as you said, no contract has ever forced you to do anything you didn't want to. So it was your choice. Just because you're greatly appreciated here for your talents doesn't mean you're incapable of not being honest about all of this. I just think this is the wrong place to not be forthcoming about it.
OK, you've got your story straight. Now answer Sui Kune's question---why would the old VAs lie to us? I say they have far too much to lose, if they lose the respect of their fans by lying they've lost everything.
Okay...here's why. Because they don't think they've lost everything by lying to their fans. They don't want to lose respect of course - NO ONE does. But if they tell you the TRUTH, that's what's going to happen, and they don't want to hear it. The same ego that is necessary to pursue an acting career is the same one that jams people up. I don't love saying this but the fans deserve the truth.
They know they've lost their 4 Kids gigs if they DON'T lie to their fans. Sorry, but that's it. "You're lovin' give me such a thrill...but you're lovin' don't pay my bills..."
I believe the 8th movie was already done at 4 Kids, but I'm not sure. But any movies and/or specials done after that will be done with PUSA.
Maybe I'm not understanding you, but it sounds like you think I'm somehow here telling you all this for money. Is that what you mean? I agree with everything you've said in principle, except I'm not making any money posting here, of course. I'm not getting anything except the idea that saying this is the right thing to do. My point is the original VAs said what they said because they didn't want any fans to know they had chosen 4 Kids over continuing with Pokemon. And there's nothing wrong with making a living! I would never fault anybody for working and getting paid for it. It's not being straight about it and verbalizing things to get the fans to rise up against the wrong people that bothers me.
"How can ANY voice actor be expected to work with script writers who have no idea about the characters they are writing for?"
I hope this will be helpful. I know the scriptwriter, and he's been writing adaptations for Pokemon since the beginning of Season 5 in 2002. He also wrote the Meowth short "Gotta Dance" and the lyrics for its featured song, as well as Pokemon movie 7. I think you're possibly mistaking the unfamliar sounds of the new voices for writing errors.
As far as the original voice actors go, there is a clause in their 4 Kids contracts that forbids them from doing any show 4 Kids had produced (whether they were involved in it or not) that went on to another production house, without the consent of 4 Kids Productions. When Pokemon USA went to the president and asked for permission to use the original voice actors, they were told no. The original voice actors may not have been individually approached to do the new season, but that is because the executive decision not to let the original voice actors continue had already been made.
I really think u guys should just get over this stuff. The regular VAs r not gonna do pokemon anymor the new VAs are. I think u guys should just give it some time. It hasnt even been a week since it came out. If u have any1 2 blame its Norman. The ppl from PUSA asked Norman in a meeting if they could use the the original VAs he said no. So PUSA had 2 find new ppl 4 the job. But, not 2 b rude, all the VAs r whining and complaning that they didnt even get 2 have a chance. i dont any maddie, or veronica 2 quote this and wtf?? ur full of S*** bcuz inside u kno its tru
over and out,guitarfreak
The point is, and I agree, that if you're going to blame anybody for this situation, you need to look at Norman Grossfeld, president of 4 Kids Productions. He is the one who made the decision not to let the original voice actors continue doing Pokemon elsewhere. No one else is to blame. Your letters going to Pokemon USA and Turner are misdirected. Mr. Grossfeld made the decision to keep the voice actors from doing the next season, no matter what others are saying. Politics.
TAJ did much more than clean up during those first few seasons. After Season 1 was produced and directed by TAJ Productions at Button Sound in NYC, they opened up their own recording facility, where Seasons 2-5 of Pokemon were written, directed, recorded and mixed by members of the TAJ team. 4 Kids oversaw the process of course, but the work was done at TAJ. In order for the idea that TAJ was going to produce an inferior product to be true, you would have to say that Seasons 1-5 were inferior, which of course, they are not.
4 Kids has lost a lot of friends over the years with their business practices. There were shows such as Fighting Foodons where the suppliers just got tired of dealing with them. The budgets 4 Kids submitted to PUSA grew larger every year, while revenues (most notably in the last 3 years) shrank. I think they were at the end of their rope, and getting little to no support from 4 Kids other than the status quo.
I do know that the original voice actors were approached awhile back about doing Pokemon for Season 9, but it wasn't 4 Kids who approached them. So anyone who says they had no idea what was happening is not being honest, for whatever reason.
I, for one can tell you that the new VAs DO care a lot about their work. Things appear to be a bit unclear still as far as how the production situation will shake out, but there's no turning back. Knowing that, wouldn't it be better to take a positive approach to what's going on and offer support and constructive thoughts, instead of heaping so much negative energy on everything that the whole production could be in jeopardy?
I think it's ironic that anyone would question NewBrock's intentions on posting here - postings completely free of vitriol and resentment. I'm frankly surprised at the amount of anger that has come from the original voice actors. These are accomplished professionals who have an ongoing relationship with one of the most succesful cartoon entertainment companies around. My prediction is that things will become much clearer over the next few months. Wouldn't we rather still have Pokemon around?
Regarding the music, the music track does come from Japan separately (otherwise it wouldn't have been able to be used in the 10th Anniversary special), but 4 Kids basically redid the music for the performance royalties. A lot of money is made from broadcast music (thus the name of the company BMI - Broadcast Music Inc. There is also the American Society Of Composers, Authors and Publishers, or ASCAP). Every time music is used on a TV show there is a 'cue sheet' filled out stating every bit of music used, who wrote it, who publishes it, the length of the cue, etc..Royalties are then paid to the writers and publishers every 3 months. To give you an idea of the amount of money made, Paul Anka, who wrote the theme for the old Tonight Show starring Johnny Carson made between $50-100,000 each year for that theme being played twice a night, five nights a week.
I was informed by reliable sources that the actual video of the Japanese version wasn't shipped to the States until the end of March. Everything else previously mentioned had to be done between then and the third week of April.
Yes, the decision was made earlier. But my point is they had around 3 weeks to get it done from start to finish, which I would say is an amazing feat in itself.
And you, and every other major voice actor had been approached to do the new season, although the offer was not from 4 Kids. And you all refused, some saying no because, among other things, it was not going to be done with 4 Kids, and only 4 Kids could do the job correctly. I would say that sounds like your allegiance is with 4 Kids, and not Pokemon.
It took 3 weeks or so to do the translation, write the adaptation, get approval, do the dub, mix, do the video, get approvals back and forth, and send to everyone. 4 Kids were months ahead in terms of production because they had the materials that far in advance. Your attempts to miminalize the process are feeble.
Actors said no, and Al and Norman said no. Everyone said no. But the actors were approached. It's simple. I'm frankly looking forward to the complete explanation from the original voice actors.
This might be of interest to everyone who's been involved in discussing the replacing of VAs. I saw this in Wilkipedia. It concerns the 4 Kids version of the TV show Sonic X.
Criticisms of 4Kids version
Like many other 4Kids productions, their version of Sonic X has been met with critical reaction regarding editing some of the more intense scenes and dialogue to make the series more child-friendly (This also applies to other 4Kids dubs). Additionally it is known that the voice actor from the Sonic games, Ryan Drummond, offered to voice Sonic for the dub - but was refused by 4Kids for not living in New York (it has also been said that Drummond even offered to re-locate to New York, and was still refused). This eventually lead to Drummond being removed (without notification) as the voice actor for the Sonic games, after Sega replaced the entire voice cast for the games with the 4Kids cast following the death of Deem Bristow, the game voice actor for Dr. Eggman.
This is in contrast to the Japanese original, which (ironically) has always shared a unified voice cast between the games and the anime. As is standard practice for 4Kids licenses, all of the music in Sonic X was replaced with new music, created by their in-house composer to cut licensing costs. This even meant removing Live and Learn, the headline song from Sonic Adventure 2, which was played in Episode 38 as Sonic and Shadow fought the Biolizard. Many fans have sent petitions for uncut DVDs; 4Kids has made no comment on the subject.
The word on the anime street is that the 10th ann. special will be gone through with a fine tooth comb before the dvd comes out.
Erica Schroeder, although a great VA, is NOT the new voice of Ash. I would advise you to take this with a grain of salt...
I wouldn't trust the links you give us. My only purpose in responding is that Erica is NOT Ash. I doubt very much that she wants to be thought of Ash as well. The credits listed have lots of errors. And your anger at PUSA at all of this happening - this is totally and 100% the fault of 4 Kids for not letting their voice actors participate in the new Pokemon season. I'm a little perplexed that no one seems to have read posts from earlier on. 4 Kids was approached and asked if the original voice actors could do Season 9, and they said NO. Do you understand NO? There is a clause in their contract that forbids them from doing any work on a 4 Kids show that went on to another production facility, without the approval of 4 Kids. They said no. Does that tell you something about their concern for the well being of Pokemon? If they really were going to help out in the passing of the torch, wouldn't they have allowed the voice actors to continue elsewhere? They didn't. TAJ can't even get the sound library of the original Pokemon voices from 4 Kids. The Big Al is more or less spot on with what's happening, and it's not pretty. What does THAT say?
The reason the original voice actors didn't know is that 4 Kids already had said no. But they DID know - they were approached by outside forces, and they refuse to admit it. The timing may not have been perfect, but this all happened months ago. I tell you, if the voice actors had (and maybe they did) gone to 4 Kids and asked to be part of Pokemon Season 9, they would've been told no. There is so much ego going on with this that it makes me have to respond to this, otherwise I would leave it alone. Which I will do now.
I've been friends with a lot of the VAs for years - since before the days of Slayers. I can't say much more than that, or my information dries up. This is a difficult situation, and I'm just adding my 2 cents. Some will think I'm wrong and some won't. I would be happy if all of this discussion would start people thinking with their heads and not just their hearts. Does it seem logical that Pokemon USA, who owns Pokemon, would want to short-change their own show? If, for the sake of discussion, the original VAs hadn't ever been contacted about doing Season 9, doesn't it stand to reason that 4 Kids was less than forthcoming with them? They must've known that the show was going elsewhere...I say 'must've', because it seems like we're stuck in 'he said she said' territory.
I agree that WE should all get along. We're the fans. I'm sure lots of people are lurking on this, and other forums. I don't understand why there can't be more support and good wishes for things to come. It seems to me that the realities of business aren't going to allow things to go back as they were.
The show will go down the toilet because the voice actors, the director, the writers, and the recording engineers got changed."
The writer wrote the adaptations for the show from 2002-present, and the recording engineers recorded and mixed the show for the first 5 years.
Originally Posted by maddiejoan
No. The current writer constantly had to have his material re-written because it wasn't adequate to air in it's submitted form, and the only engineer TAJ has now never engineered without 4Kids supervision.
All of that is pure 4 Kids spin. Political heresay. I feel for the fans in this situation, because all they want is to keep having their show. You have constantly provided half truths during all of this, and it's a shame. I'm done. Truth will out.
Not to defend 4 Kids, but I do know there was pressure from the WB to change certain scenes visually that the WB deemed too racy or 'unamerican' for American audiences. As far as the music goes, though, there's no one to blame but them for what they did. It was mainly a grab for the royalties as well.
I've known Jimmy Zoppi for 4 years now - since the '02 Big Apple anime convention. I asked him if he signed up at Bulbagarden or here. He said no. He said he's scanned the boards here from time to time, but he's never even been to Bulbagarden. Whoever is posting as Zoppi is a fraud.
It sounds like a good time to again remind you that the special was animated and written in Japan, and like everything else from the past 8 seasons, was adapted for the US market. I have seen rumors that it somehow was made for the USA market first, but I assure you it isn't true. If you carefully watch the animation - especially in the beginning and at the end, you will see that there is no way that the 'lip flap' was created with the English language in mind. You may be right about the necessity of tightening things up, etc., but you need to look to Japan and the creators for that to be accomplished.
Very objective points are brought up, and deserve a good long look. Even if the real inside scoop is not available to everyone yet, a simple question might help things out. Who stands to gain by telling the truth here and who doesn't? Hurling negative comments, bad feelings and the like only serves to characterize the person expressing them. I haven't seen one negative comment come from PUSA, but I sure can't say that in regard to others. Sour grapes indeed.
There is an impression out there that the new voice actors are somehow only making a fraction of the money the original VOs are making, which is not true. My understanding is the reason for the budget cuts has everything to do with the astronomical fees charged by 4 Kids over the years. Revenues were going down every season past a certain point, but overall budgets keep increasing, and I know for a fact that the VOs are NOT getting rich working at 4 Kids. I've heard stories about VOs getting a small raise a few years back, but because of some 'creative' restructuring concerning how hours were booked and paid, the VOs actally got a pay cut. This while 4 Kids was making millions and millions of dollars. Not that this is unusual in the world of business of course, but the only companies that are truly in existance to aid their consumers are usually not for profit, and that's stretching it sometimes.
4 Kids had been having problems with the WB ever since they took on the Fox Box, which was in direct competition with WB's Saturday morning programming. Bridges have been slowly burned over the years, to the point of what you see here. There are a few who post here who's opinion of how their business has been handled has been shameful, and my opinion is this change is not only good, but necessary to Pokemon's continued existance.
I don't work At PUSA, but I really think the old VA thing is over.
There has never been a union performance done by ANY VAs for 4 Kids, except for the very beginning when Pokemon was advertised union in commercials and in WB promos. The idea that the old VAs are union and the new aren't is wrong. Some are and some aren't. The ones that are use fake names, and the ones that aren't don't. Some VAs don't care either way. 4 Kids does not like union. Does that somehow make sense?
As far as union verses non-union, I only mentioned that again because this was spoken of in the past as somehow evidence that the old vas were somehow different, or better. When work first started at 4 Kids, there was a small group of dedicated, loyal, hard working artists that always rose to the challenge of whatever was needed. This was back when Pokemon was on at 6:30 in the morning daily, and when 4 Kids' stock price was around $2. Pokemon's success was a bit of a surprise to everybody involved, and as a result 4 Kids could've taken a different route at that point - one that would recognize the team that helped to make Pokemon a success, or one that would allow their employees and independent contractors only as little as possible to continue their work there. They opted for the latter. It has finally caught up with them - at least in this situation, and their egos are still way too big to admit their mistakes. But it always comes out in the wash.
In television, if you do work for a program using film, you need to belong to the Screen Actors Guild (SAG), and if you do video, you belong to AFTRA. Most TV stations have agreed not to show programs using non union actors, although over the past few years things have changed - anime being one of the reasons. When a company hires union actors and does union productions, they have a minimum amount of money they have agreed to pay, as well as pension, welfare, health insurance, etc.. They also agree to pay residuals on future broadcasts of their work. Well, 4 Kids wanted none of that, and so they only hire non-union actors, although in the very beginning when Pokemon was taking off in a big way any commercials and promo spots were paid union.
There was a time when union actors were most likely better than non union, since one couldn't join either union without having done union work already (there's a catch-22 for you), but almost all entertainment-related unions have lost most of their power, unless you look at the AA rated TV shows and movies. Some of the VAs for 4 Kids are still union, but to protect their status they've taken phony names for non union work. I think union work is still preferable, but these days you work where the work is.
The entire new VA cast is not being replaced. The show is scheduled to go on in September with the correct number of new shows. I was told there are most likely 1 or 2 replacements, but that's as much as I could find out.
Also, I've heard rumor that 4 Kids is not the company they once were. They have dramatically downsized, and have drastically cut down their production schedule, to the point where they've purchased several shows already completed. With all the money they spent with all those hours to fill on Fox and shameful ratings as a result, I'm not surprised.
The ratings for Pokemon and Yuggio were usually at the top of the broadcast animation ratings: low to mid 4s to low 5s. The highest ANY Foxbox/Fox shows ever got was around 2.3, and that was for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which is original animation and was reputed to have a small army of people working on it. Most of the time the ratings were in the low 1s, or .8s or .9s. Shameful.
The casting director is *not* looking for voices on "most" of the roles either.
I hope you get on lots of their new shows if they in fact have them, since you are one of their absolute best VAs.
I think only 1 new VA is getting replaced.
I'm not sure of how that translates to the actual number of people, but that figure sounds right.
CN will be running the new Pokemon. Some say cable has less viewership than broadcast, but somehow SpongeBob has managed.
By the way - I loved the poster who was angry at the new VAs performing on the most recent episode. It just points up how much of this anger is misdirected, and most likely stirred by the same VAs the poster didn't like when they thought they were the new ones.
4 Kids has LOTS of cash (thank you Cabbage Patch et al), and their philosophy these days (and also most likely since day 1) is "Throw enough s**t against the wall and something will stick". This is a company who couldn't care less about the shareholders, and laughs at them all behind their backs. And just because something is on the air doesn't mean anyone is watching.
I've stayed out of opinions regarding old vs. new voices, but this particular YouTube short has made me realize something interesting. 90% of the new voice actors have injected more energy and cadence into their first outing than I suspected at first, but hearing them side by side showed me. My actual favorite change is James. I know most will disagree, but I think he goes where he's really always been character-wise, when you consider his history and upbringing. At first I also thought that the new VAs were for the most part merely imitating the original VAs, but I was wrong. They're already throwing something new and different into Pokemon, and after 8 years the change is going to do it good.
This is going to be a great season. Production is already underway.
There is only ONE replaced VA from the new stable. All the rest are the same from the TV special. An they're great.
Lots of interesting posts to respond to. I also appreciate the positive nature of almost all of the most recent posts, because PUSA is listening, and although their decisions are going to be those that benefit Pokemon in the broadest sense possible (if you had to make those decisions you would too), supporting the new direction can only be helpful. Voicing constructive criticism is as well, but I'm afraid severe bashing on either side of the VA aisle only serves to hurt the basher.
I honestly cannot say which new VA was replaced, but it has been touched on already. It's good to keep in mind that since the Mirage special was voiced several months ago, getting into a regular work routine has only benefitted the VAs, and everyone involved for that matter. Everything is moving ahead, and any recurring characters from previous seasons will be looked at with the intent on preserving the essence of the character. If it is decided that the original voice falls short, they'll deal with that as well.
As far as the James discussion, the fact that he comes from a well to do family and desires to leave it behind makes the new voice direction all the better (and perhaps funnier), IMO. There is an episode in the new season where James revisits a place that was part of his life as a child, and it's touching. Also, you're going to see into who James really is as a caring, sensitive person, and the new voice direction fits this like a glove. That's my definition of 'great'.
Again, this had everything to do with 4 Kids NOT allowing the original VAs to go on and do Pokemon at TAJ. The VAs ALL wanted to continue (except for Veronica who told TAJ when asked that no one could produce Pokemon other than 4 Kids), but 4 Kids said NO. The clause in their contract that forbids them from doing so is illegal, and will probably be proven in court to be so one day, but for now 4 Kids is reaping what they sow, but probably doesn't give a rat's behind about it anyway. I am tired of the lies and half truths that have been promoted around here by some, but I certainly don't blame the fans. I blame the ones in the know who have purposely misled everyone here to think that somehow PUSA are the bad guys. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just ask The Big Al or Harold The Wonder Dog. They may not speak the way everyone would like them to, but they are closer to the truth than the VAs who claim to be 'in the know'.
Now here's a point we agree on. It *is* ultimately a meaningless clause - which raises a question - if 4 Kids is so benevolent in their treatment of employess and fans, why put a clause in a contract like that in the first place? A more relevant clause stating what you describe as 4 Kids' real intent would be better, I would think. Perhaps after having to spend money in court to prove such a clause meaningless, one might think it a bit more vitriolic and less innocent and "boilerplate" than it seems.
PUSA was told directly by Norman at 4 Kids that they had to get soundalikes because of the 4 Kids contract, and was told face to face in a meeting between the 2 companies to boot.
The original VAs were not being held in any 'jail'- that is, as long as they didn't mind being harrassed and fired.
I have no direct evidence that the 2 VAs you mention were hired by TAJ, but I'm fairly certain they were fired by 4 Kids. For what reason I can't say. But this all has the aroma of less than savory business practices.
New Brock is in fact who he says he is. Proof that I know? I emailed him several times at his private email address (which I got from a mutual anime friend - he responded knowing everything that was attributed to him on this board). I thought he went a long way to heal some of the rifts that rippled around here. I wish he had stuck around, but I know how busy he is now.
PUSA is not saying that your viewership means nothing to them, but they're not going to change course if they're getting between 50 - and 100 emails from upset fans, while at the same time thousands of happy emails from others.
NewBrock happens to be a huge anime fan, and has watched and enjoyed Rachel's work for years, just like all of us. I think if you were in his position you might have reacted the same way too.
The only spitting done around here is from 4 Kids. Proof? Why in the world would PUSA NOT want the original VAs to do the show? Money? Please. How much money do you imagine Pokemon USA has with everything going on? Why would they not use the original VAs unless they couldn't? Are we talking about the difference of a few dollars per hour session fees? Doesn't this seem strange to you at all?
This is not to discourage anyone from writing anybody about anything, but I've heard that episode 901 is complete, the dubbing for 902 is in progress, the first 5 episodes have been written and approved by the powers that be, and everyone involved is excited and happy to move ahead. Am I right? Do I have proof? We're all heading into the 3rd week of June, and PUSA has to be prepared for a September Season 9 start date. Where would *we* be if we had that broadcast schedule to follow? It makes sense.
The way I understand it, a good chunk of scripts need to be seen and approved before meaningful dubbing can begin. It stands to reason - I think initially PUSA and whoever else is involved want to see the way the characters are portrayed, and also to make sure the Pokemon and attack names are correct.
An interesting sideline to this is a previous assertion that scripts needed to be rewritten before they could be sent for approval back in previous 4 Kids times. I'm told currently that very few changes have had to be made. I do remember Maddie stating that she could tell the difference in scripts between the first time she would do a session and when rewrites were in place. I'm starting to suspect that these changes were made AFTER 4 Kids had submitted the script THEY had 'corrected' - meaning any changes had little to do with the original draft. I suspect some ego at work here. Not that 4 Kids doesn't have every right to change and edit any way they see fit, but to blame the writer for changes (which was what was expressed to Maddie by the Pokemon producers and others involved - no offense intended to Maddie) seems wrong. My buddy told me that there were no more than 3 or 4 cue corrections asked for, and when you're dealing with as 25 page script, that sounds fairly competent to me.
Excuse me, but I think if you knew that someone was saying that they thought someone else was full of it when you know they aren't, I would think you would want them to know. I have no interest whatsoever in starting any flame wars. As a matter of fact, I came on this list because I had heard that flame wars were being stirred against people who couldn't even defend themselves. I think it's fine to hate anyone you like, and plonk anyone you like, but defaming someone's character when you don't even know the person is a bit over the edge.
And yes - I heard New Brock's new Brock today, listening to a rough mix of a new Pokemon episode. I thought it sounded great, and quite a bit different from the TV special. Funny thing is, the Mirage Brock started to grow on me...maybe someday they'll do a "Pokemon All Growed Up", and then that voice can return.
If I give my sources for whatever it is you're talking about, I won't have sources anymore. But I wouldn't be wasting my time spouting BS on a list where 95% of the readers either don't agree, don't want to hear it, or don't think it's true anyway. But I think's it's important to say what I know, so I am.
I meant the other VAs that have been trashed around here since the TV special. I have complete confidence in New Brock's ability to defend himself, but there are others who for one reason or another can't spend the time here to carry on a dialog.
I honestly don't know what it is about New Brock that's gotten under your skin.
I heard/saw a reference mix of episodes 901 and 902 today. 901 is done, 902 isn't. That's true - no biggie. Why is that so hard to believe? I heard Ash, May, Max, (new) Brock, Team Rocket, and the Pokemon. Brock truly is listening to what folks here have to say, as well as injecting his own spin at the same time. In a way, I think it was liberating for him to feel good about adding his own twist. The truth is he's got a great ear, and the 'gravel' he put into the TV special I think had more to do with feedback at the session than his own preference. But it wasn't TAJ's feedback. There's a lot of static in the world of committee decisions.
New Brock is a HUGE anime fan. He's younger than some in the biz as well, and believe me, he's a Lillis fan. Why would someone want to upset a person they looked up to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Butler
The group of new VAs as a whole knocked Lillis and the group of old VAs out of their jobs. Not only that, he then went on to make claims about contracts that Lillis (we aren't talking about Maddie) knew to be false.
Say I was working at a Dunkin Donuts, and one day without reason the entire staff was fired by the manager and replaced. I would rightfully be angry at the manager, and resentful of the cheap substitutes being used in my place.
What makes me so angry about the VA situation is that these old VAs loved their jobs. It was obvious, and still is. These characters were parts of their lives. I feel that when you are hired because of the almighty dollar, as these new VAs were, you are not motivated to do your best, and as a result, everyone suffers.
Let's go back to that Dunkin Donuts again. If I really loved my job there, I would do it even for the smallest amount of money. The same goes for the old VA's---Taylor, Lillis, Stuart, and Maddie have all said they'd go back for the same pay just as long as all of them were rehired.
I have another belief I hold strongly. If the mighty dollar is your rise, it will be your downfall as well.
I truly respect your heartfelt views on all of this, but you are sadly putting the blame in the wrong place. The new Vas as a whole had NOTHING to do with 'knocking' the original VAs out of their jobs.
The contract clause New Brock mentioned was referenced to another VA on their own blog site. The clause is out in the open now. Hey - I've seen the clause too. As Maddie now admits, it's powerless. But it seems that no one was willing to choose to fight the clause and go for keeping on with Pokemon. That's because none of them wanted to lose their work at 4 Kids. They chose 4 Kids work over Pokemon.
You can think whatever you want to about the original VA's reasons for not doing the new Pokemon season, but the fact is they aren't. Someone was going to do it, and if you blame the ones who take their place thinking that the new VAs somehow had any power on who does the new voices, then you must not be thinking business practices through. What riles me up the most is that some of the original VAs are doing their damnedest to obscure the fact that 4 Kids refused to let them work on Pokemon. 4 Kids would fire *anybody* at the drop of a hat if someone looked crosseyed at them.
I can't really get too specific about the voices (some have changed sound wise, and one is new), but I can guarantee you that other than those comments saying "Ew! That SUCKS! Dump em!", a lot of comments from here were addressed. You may not be 100% pleased, but if you'll give it a good listen, you'll be able to hear directly that everyone's been listening to the fans, which is as it should be. I wish you could all believe how important those who truly love Pokemon (and wish to help, not rip) are at this point...
I guess you don't know how hard it is to get work in the VA/anime business. 'Out of respect'? Please. There is no loss of respect because the new VAs were offered POKEMON and they ACCEPTED! It's not like if they refused PUSA would've gone back to the original VAs. They were flat out refused by 4 Kids.
The ones who are still working there regularly are going to say glowing things about 4 Kids. I know of more than a few people who hate that place. 4 Kids has the worst reputation possible in the cartoon business. Go to Yahoo.com finance and see what they're saying abut 4 Kids stockholder treatment. It's so negative.
You don't have to believe anything I say. As a matter of fact, I'm starting to think I'm taking way too much space around here anyway.
Here's what I know. The president of TAJ called all 4 major VAs on the phone back in early 2006 and told them personally what was happening. He said he was aware of the clause, but also said legal opinion had stated that the clause was unenforceable. He also said that PUSA wanted them all to continue doing Pokemon. They all said no, but for differing reasons that I can't be 100% sure of. I don't care what the VAs are saying now. This is what happened.
I don't know Kayzie, and Zoppi *has* been mysterious about all of this. For all I know he might be one of the VAs on the new show...I know someone said it was true.
I guess all I can ask you is...put on your BS o' meter and ask yourself - if the original VAs wanted to be on the show now, why wouldn't they be? Because a company like PUSA would cut off their nose despite their face and not even ask them to be on the show anymore? It makes no sense to me in any way shape or form to do that, unless 4 Kids said no. Even if they weren't approached one by one. Which I think they were. But no matter. If 4 Kids said no, why are you mad at PUSA?
I've known pretty much everybody who's had anything to do with Pokemon since 1997 (or is it 98? Or 96?!). I know Maddie and Eric and Veronica and Rachael and Michael Haigney and Norman and Darron and Larry and Armen and Kathy and Zoppi and a few others. I consider SOME of the business people, the VAs and producers my friends. I was lucky enough to watch a reference mix of the first episode today. It isn't the final mix, but I can hear what's going on. I'm thrilled at the result!
You should all know how much they value the fans' input and affection.
I didn't actually hear a tape recording of the phone calls, so I said I 'think' they were. I don't wanna any bowing going on anywhere. I just want you to consider what I'm saying. And I previously said if I divulge my sources I won't have them anymore. It appears I'm stuck between a Rock type and a hard place...
No. I'm not Lawrence Neves (I don't know who he is - sorry). I'm trying to figure out something to say, because I realize that this is getting a little silly. If I say I'm not him, you won't believe me, right? If I tell you who I am, then I'm toast, right?
I don't work for PUSA. But I was at TAJ today, and I saw the 1st episode rough mix. As soon as I can spill the total beans, I will. But my only point is to ask you questions that will help you to come to some real answers. I'm telling you - I love everyone around here talking all things Pokemon. I just wish the flaming would stop.
I'm not indifferent. I'm just trying to explain why they lost their job in the first place. I'm not even trying to pass any judgement on their decision to not do Pokemon. It's a tough business these days, and 4 Kids is one, if not the only, place in NYC where VAs can make a decent wage doing cartoons. I'm not upset because they wanted to stay with 4 Kids and continue with their steady gigs. I'm upset because they're not being straight forward on what really happened. I wouldn't even mind *that* if they hadn't come out and maligned the new VAs for something they passed on.
Yes, they passionately worked on Pokemon. Yes, it had become a part of them. Yes, they genuinely love Pokemon. But they love their work at 4 Kids more, and that's the hard truth.
Your voices ARE being heard. That's really what I've been trying to say. I apologize if I've said too much tonight, but my passion for you and Pokemon is running high these days, and it's important for everyone to know that what is being said IS being heard. The negativity is being treated as such, but's what's more dynamic than voices filled with passion and love?
I can't really do much other than tell you what I believe and know. I've said before that my opinion is PUSA will do what they feel is in their best overall interest for the success of their company, but they're listening. Good night.
Let's see how much of this I can respond to without getting my head handed to me on a platter. I was in the studio yesterday on a couch with a friend of mine on one side, and 2 PUSA people on the other. We listened to a track with just voices - no music, no edits, no FX. When I first heard Ash I elbowed my buddy, looked at him and mouthed "New Ash?" He smiled. I couldn't ask anything more because we were listening, and I was a guest. Ash sounds different than the special. That's what I can say. But everybody else sounded like the VAs on the TV special, but more comfortable in their roles. Funny thing is, those who didn't like James and Meowth and May said they didn't like them because they didn't sound like the originals. Some said to not worry about the originals and do what seems right. I think they're on the road to the latter.
I don't know if they're going to use original music, or some new music, or all new music. I don't know anybody from that dep't, and there was nothing to hear yesterday. I'll see what I can find out. No one knew anything about that.
I do know the scriptwriter, and he said he would be coming up with new titles, BUT...and here's the but...the story I got from him is he's been titling scripts for 4 years now, and they only used 1 or 2 of his the whole time. I've seen the titles they've been using (like we all have), and...if 4 Kids think they're funny, then they need to get outside opinions (Claydol - Big And Tall? Puhleeze). I can't really run new titles past you, since that would be blowing the new season.
They're dealing with Pokemon voices the way they've always dealt with them - if a Pokemon's name has been changed for English, they use a new voice. If there has already been a recording of the Pokemon in question, they 'pull it' as much as they can. If not, they'll use new VAs to do it.
As far as me being New Brock....as you all might say...BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!! With all due respect to him, I know things about Pokemon that he couldn't possibly know. I've been friends with those guys since the very beginning, when they were dubbing voices at Buttons Sound on East 46th St. in NYC. And the only reason I mention that is not to hurt NewBrock's feelings, but to give the great butler a mini-plonk. With love though! I mean it. I understand everything that's going on around here, and it only proves how great Pokemon is.
Now I didn't say that the titles weren't going to be clever...I just said they were going to be much better than they were. Some may groan still at what they consider puns. It's part and parcel to what Pokemon has come to be in the US of A. The problem with the Japanese titles is that they're so straight ahead and not funny. It's like watching Team Rocket in Japanese and seeing them go through all of their hilarious contortions, and then read the translations...there's nothing funny in what they're saying in Japanese most of the time. So it is with the titles. The titles need to change - only to something better, me thinks.
Hey, relax! I said that the VA actors sounded like the same actors, not that they hadn't changed. Brock is not chain smoking anymore, May has dialed back a few years, and Max is on the new high fiber diet we've all heard about. I have to say, as much as I love you, you're being awfully ornery about all of this. Why would you want to shut down this thread? At this point the only flaming I hear is coming from you. Come on. Isn't it better to talk abut this stuff than sweep it under the rug?
They lost their roles because 4 Kids refused to let them continue on with Pokemon with PUSA due to a clause in their 4 Kids VA contract that although unenforceable, would cause 4 Kids to stop employing them to do other 4 Kids shows. Not replacing the VAs could have been avoided *only* if the old VAs had agreed not to honor their contracts and stop working for 4 Kids. They refused. It was the original VA's decision as a result of 4 Kids' mandate. There's nothing wrong with that - the only lie is that PUSA is being villified as a result.
I'm not saying you have to like any of it. I totally understand your frustration. I just wish you'd get straight who's telling the truth and who's not. PUSA had nothing to do with the animation either. They drew it in Japan, and sent it over in late March. Do you think PUSA 's going to call Japan and tell them they have to redraw it?
I guess I'll have to stop all of this pretty soon. This isn't rocket science. Once more - the original VAs were called on the phone one-by-one by TAJ. TAJ said PUSA wanted the original VAs to continue doing Season 9 of Pokemon, but 4 Kids was not going to let them continue doing Pokemon because of a clause in their contracts. However, TAJ believed the clause was illegal, and wanted the VAs to know that, and would even be willing to assist them in fighting any legal problems as a result. That's because in a meeting, initially 4 Kids refused PUSA, and TAJ was calling to let the old VAs know that. BUT - one by one, all of the old VAs didn't want to lose their 4 Kids gig, so they refused TAJ. Because 4 Kids refused them in the first place.
Originally Posted by maddiejoan
No. The lie is that PUSA or TAJ offered us the chance to decide.
You can keep saying we "refused" to do the roles --it doesn't make it true, hon.
Do you mean *neither* PUSA or TAJ offered you the chance to decide? Of course you decided. You knew about it. You spoke to TAJ, and they told you everything, and then you decided to stay with 4 Kids. You may think that having to decide for practical reasons to stay with 4 Kids is not really a decision, but as you said, no contract has ever forced you to do anything you didn't want to. So it was your choice. Just because you're greatly appreciated here for your talents doesn't mean you're incapable of not being honest about all of this. I just think this is the wrong place to not be forthcoming about it.
OK, you've got your story straight. Now answer Sui Kune's question---why would the old VAs lie to us? I say they have far too much to lose, if they lose the respect of their fans by lying they've lost everything.
Okay...here's why. Because they don't think they've lost everything by lying to their fans. They don't want to lose respect of course - NO ONE does. But if they tell you the TRUTH, that's what's going to happen, and they don't want to hear it. The same ego that is necessary to pursue an acting career is the same one that jams people up. I don't love saying this but the fans deserve the truth.
They know they've lost their 4 Kids gigs if they DON'T lie to their fans. Sorry, but that's it. "You're lovin' give me such a thrill...but you're lovin' don't pay my bills..."
I believe the 8th movie was already done at 4 Kids, but I'm not sure. But any movies and/or specials done after that will be done with PUSA.
Maybe I'm not understanding you, but it sounds like you think I'm somehow here telling you all this for money. Is that what you mean? I agree with everything you've said in principle, except I'm not making any money posting here, of course. I'm not getting anything except the idea that saying this is the right thing to do. My point is the original VAs said what they said because they didn't want any fans to know they had chosen 4 Kids over continuing with Pokemon. And there's nothing wrong with making a living! I would never fault anybody for working and getting paid for it. It's not being straight about it and verbalizing things to get the fans to rise up against the wrong people that bothers me.
