Potential New Mega Evolutions

[Deadeye]

They're not going to introduce a bunch of Megas for already-very-useful species, so for there to be any introduction of new ones, we need to have a solid selection of weakened species with the design or popularity to justify the effort of designing these Megas.

I would like it if they did, because imho adding Mega/Primal evolutions for legendary Pokemon was a poor choice. If Game Freak let legendaries be legendaries with some air of mystery around them and focus on making those species strong that any trainer could be raising if they lived in Pokemon world, that would both highlight more what Pokemon is... or rather once was about; working together and bonding with your partners, not to mention having friendly battles where every Pokemon has potential to become strong! It could bring balance to wifi battles as well considering teams with legendaries usually win those with non-legendaries, even while some over used non-legendaries stand a better chance.

Generally I didn't like much about Z-moves, seems like a hasty attempt to bring balance for those Pokemon that don't mega evolve. I wouldn't be bothered if they were gone but I could tolerate them still existing in Ultra Sun/Moon if there was a significant purpose for them.. aside from just being a new cool feature. Wonder if the Z-moves have some vague connection to Zygarde which would be introduced in the next game? They've been stalling this much all the way from X/Y.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

Mega Evolutions are given to popular pokémon for marketing reasons. They're not a balancing factor for competitive and never have been. That's why stuff like Charizard, Gengar, Alakazam, Tyranitar, Metagross, Heracross, Garchomp, Scizor, Salamence, and Lucario got mega evolutions. Truth be told, nobody cares about Corsola, and giving it +100 BST isn't going to make it good considering it can't hold another item when mega evolving. If GameFreak for some reason thought Corsola was popular and deserved something to make it worth considering in a team they need to give it a regular evolution.

 

[Deadeye]

Mega Evolutions are given to popular pokémon for marketing reasons. They're not a balancing factor for competitive and never have been.

I can see your point from marketing perspective. However, if they're solely stuck on what's popular instead of daring to be a bit creative with the less popular mons, I could see them start losing customers. Old fans from Indigo and Johto league times will get bored with "making Charizard etc cool again", even if they did get new fans which started liking them and also created new Pokemon along the way.
Many of the existing mega evolutions were cool however, I have nothing against them nor the old good Pokemon. Just would find it refreshing that they dared to deviate from the popular and strong ones. Maybe balance in wifi battling is a lost case, but if they hold battle competitions and tournaments in the future, how boring would it be in long term that every team consists of almost same Pokemon with expections that are made by rules and restrictions?

In case of TL;DR: It may not be of their best interest to think about this as long as the games sell, but really, what's the point of hundreds species of Pokemon half of them are added or could be transferred to every new game yet their existence would be pretty much useless in the end aside from dex filling?

 

[Sαpphire]

But the thing is, competitive battling was never the point of the series, so it's really hard for any species or line to truly be "useless" outside Dex completion. It might be a good idea for them to strive for more balance in that aspect of the games, but collecting and using your favorite Pokémon has always been the real point, regardless of their competitive utility.

With regard to mega evolution, the real problem I see is that it's only available to a rather limited selection, and it seems like something that has to be updated in the future solely because the proportion of species afforded this special distinction will otherwise only decrease.

 

[Excitable Boy]

I never said it was perfect, I'm just saying it's not pointless. There is a difference, after all.

when did I say they were pointless?

and why would someone who doesn't care about the competitive aspect care one way or another about competitive balance, anyway? if you don't care about competitive balance and just want to dick around in-game, what difference does it make to you if the competitive balance isn't complete whack? why would that be something you would feel the need to protest?

That's what I was on about. They gave megas to Pokemon that didn't need it like pseudos and legendaries plus some abilities were way to outrageous (I'm looking ar you mega Kangashkan). They need to give it Pokemon that need it like Flygon, who has no real competitive use.

yeah, and there's no feasible way to do this under the current mechanics without exacerbating the problem in either direction - either it contributes the separate tier of Mega power creep, or you just get another Mega that isn't worth using over the Pokemon in the first tier

But the thing is, competitive battling was never the point of the series

this may have been true back in the days of GameBoys and Link Cables, but you've gotta be pretty ignorant to try to argue with sincerity that Game Freak isn't actively promoting that aspect now

what do you think the Battle Competitions, the VGC, the Battle Spot, even the Battle Tree are for? why do you think they've been gradually streamlining the process of breeding perfect Pokemon, guaranteeing tri-flawless legends, making it easier to obtain certain moves and abilities? why do you think we're seeing a greater proportion of Pokemon in recent generations that are viable in (certain types of) competitive play, and older Pokemon having their stats revised?

if they care enough about the competitive aspect of their games to do all of that, why makes Megas a third rail?

 

[Sαpphire]

this may have been true back in the days of GameBoys and Link Cables, but you've gotta be pretty ignorant to try to argue with sincerity that Game Freak isn't actively promoting that aspect now

what do you think the Battle Competitions, the VGC, the Battle Spot, even the Battle Tree are for? why do you think they've been gradually streamlining the process of breeding perfect Pokemon, guaranteeing tri-flawless legends, making it easier to obtain certain moves and abilities? why do you think we're seeing a greater proportion of Pokemon in recent generations that are viable in (certain types of) competitive play, and older Pokemon having their stats revised?

if they care enough about the competitive aspect of their games to do all of that, why makes Megas a third rail?

Did I say that it wasn't important to GameFreak and the Pokémon Company? I challenge you to find metrics that detail the approximate percentage of players who use these features at all; I think you'd find, if such metrics exist, that Pokémon is still overwhelmingly composed of casual players. Thus, my statements on competitive (and by extension the moderation or tempering of the competitive metagame with Mega Evolutions) not being "the point". I actually do think of Mega Evolution as being partially intended to balance the metagame, and I do acknowledge the relative popularity of competitive Pokémon, but as Sceptile Leaf Blade noted: Mega Evolution is predominantly a marketing feature, and it is therefore probably more aimed toward more casual players. Mega Charizard X and Y, for example, are just cool spins on what is probably the second-most-recognizable representative of the series; they also do bring Charizard back into the metagame a bit, but that's honestly more secondary than a primary purpose.

 

[Excitable Boy]

Did I say that it wasn't important to GameFreak and the Pokémon Company?

you said it was never the point of the series

which, while technically true, is horribly reductive to the point of absurdity when the next sentence is basically "therefore, no one cares"

I mean, I could just as easily argue that aspects like the mini-games, character customization, and NPCs that aren't fought don't really matter because they're all purely ancillary to the core of the game (even moreso than competitive battling! the core of the game is, ostensibly, obtaining + raising + battling Pokemon - competitive battling at least involves the battling portion, which is more than you can say for the other examples except maybe tangentially) and no one is playing the game explicitly for these purposes, and therefore any discussion related to improving them is pointless and irrelevant, but I'd clearly be stepping on the toes of the unprovably small minority of players who actually enjoy these features, wouldn't I?

 

[Sαpphire]

you said it was never the point of the series

which, while technically true, is horribly reductive to the point of absurdity when the next sentence is basically "therefore, no one cares"

I mean, I could just as easily argue that aspects like the mini-games, character customization, and NPCs that aren't fought don't really matter because they're all purely ancillary to the core of the game (even moreso than competitive battling! the core of the game is, ostensibly, obtaining + raising + battling Pokemon - competitive battling at least involves the battling portion, which is more than you can say for the other examples except maybe tangentially) and no one is playing the game explicitly for these purposes, and therefore any discussion related to improving them is pointless and irrelevant, but I'd clearly be stepping on the toes of the unprovably small minority of players who actually enjoy these features, wouldn't I?

The rest of the paragraph to which you refer stated:
- that you can't really cal a Pokémon "useless" outside of the Dex just because it's not competitively viable
- that it might be a good idea to strive for balance in the competitive scene but that's not the main point of the series (and therefore likely not the main point of mega evolution)

You reading into that as "therefore, no one cares" is simply a misinterpretation of tone, intent, or wording, because that's not remotely what I implied. Additionally, as I've stated that I acknowledge the proportion of players who enjoy competitive play and have neither derided them nor dismissed conversation of competitive balancing as it pertains to Mega Evolution, I'm not concerned with having stepped on anyone's toes. It's not unreasonable to make and voice the observation that Mega Evolution appears to be far more concerned with marketing, aesthetic, and design - not to mention its role as a sixth generation plot device - than with competitive balancing, particularly when I acknowledge that the latter is in fact some function of the feature.

If there are more introduced - and again, I really have to say that multiple factors lead me to the belief that there won't be any in these two new games - then I fully expect them not to be designed with a particular focus on competitive viability.

 

[Excitable Boy]

Additionally, as I've stated that I acknowledge the proportion of players who enjoy competitive play and have neither derided them nor dismissed conversation of competitive balancing as it pertains to Mega Evolution, I'm not concerned with having stepped on anyone's toes.

it's certainly an odd way to downplay in a response to a statement about competitive balance to say that while "it might be a good idea for them to strive for more balance in that aspect," it isn't not the real point, with all the connotations associated with that, no?

eh, w/e

is there any reason for them to not try to achieve some kind of competitive balance in a game where competitive aspects are an ever-increasing focus?

It's not unreasonable to make and voice the observation that Mega Evolution appears to be far more concerned with marketing, aesthetic, and design - not to mention its role as a sixth generation plot device - than with competitive balancing, particularly when I acknowledge that the latter is in fact some function of the feature.

are the two mutually exclusive?

are little Sophia and Ronny going to disappointed that Mega Salamence is only "pretty good" as opposed to "nigh game-breaking" in the eyes of a bunch of nerds they'll never meet?

 

[Sαpphire]

it's certainly an odd way to downplay in a response to a statement about competitive balance to say that while "it might be a good idea for them to strive for more balance in that aspect," it isn't not the real point, with all the connotations associated with that, no?

eh, w/e

is there any reason for them to not try to achieve some kind of competitive balance in a game where competitive aspects are an ever-increasing focus?

are the two mutually exclusive?

are little Sophia and Ronny going to disappointed that Mega Salamence is only "pretty good" as opposed to "nigh game-breaking" in the eyes of a bunch of nerds they'll never meet?

I'm really not following the first part anymore; I think it's perfectly valid to essentially say "it might be good to do some process to X, although Y is the main concern."

I don't think things are entirely mutually exclusive, I just think that GameFreak is more likely to be concerned with particular aspects and prioritize them over others even if they can work together.

 

[Excitable Boy]

I'm really not following the first part anymore; I think it's perfectly valid to essentially say "it might be good to do some process to X, although Y is the main concern."

it's evident to the point of meaninglessness in virtually any discussion, and is suggestive of dismissiveness of whatever the topic at hand is; I may as well post that character customization would be good to process, but isn't the main concern when the point is battling

 

[Sαpphire]

it's evident to the point of meaninglessness in virtually any discussion, and is suggestive of dismissiveness of whatever the topic at hand is; I may as well post that character customization would be good to process, but isn't the main concern when the point is battling

Okay but no, that's just not accurate. Not at all. You talking about customization compared to battling would not be analogous to me saying, within a thread about new Mega Evolutions, that said new Mega Evolutions will likely be designed for marketing first and competitive battling only after the marketing, if at all.

It's an observation based on ample evidence and it has a relevant place in the discussion; you're treating it as though I made a negative judgement against competitive play, competitive participants, or Mega Evolution as an aspect of competitive play, rather than a simple observation. I no longer follow what objection you take toward the assessment I made and I'm just going to excuse myself from the discussion at this point.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

is there any reason for them to not try to achieve some kind of competitive balance in a game where competitive aspects are an ever-increasing focus? are the two mutually exclusive?

I don't think they don't try to achieve some form of competitive balance, that's why they ban stuff like Kyogre after all and tried to add Aurora Veil to make Hail teams more viable, but I also don't think the competitive balance is their main priority when introducing new mega evolutions. Balancing a game with 800+ pokémon is nigh-on impossible. As for whether the two are mutually exclusive? Maybe partly they are when it comes to mega evolution. Some of the non-viable pokémon like Corsola simply are not popular enough to warrant mega evolution. Most people aren't going to get hyped for Mega Corsola. Besides, with Mega Stones banned in a lot of the competitions giving stuff a mega evolution isn't going to do anything for their viability in those competitions. I feel like mega evolution is a contrived way to try and balance things out. Keeping with the example of Corsola, they could give it a regular evolution, currently its stats are similar to a pokémon like Wartortle, there's a lot of room there.

My point is, if balancing is the primary goal I wouldn't want them to go about it with mega evolution. They can give something a new ability, like they did for Pelipper and Torkoal, they can give it a new move, like Sudowoodo which got Head Smash in SM or Flygon with Dragon Dance, they can change the base stats a bit, they can give it a regular evolution like they did with for instance Togetic and Sneasel, or they can nerf the ability somewhat for OP pokémon (like they did for Talonflame and Mega Kangaskhan and in gen 6 for weather-inducing abilities).

 

[Aleh]

I don't think it's that improbable we'll get new Megas in UltraSM. And for sure we'll get them in remakes, because that's a perfect way to introduce new content to old games to render a purchase more likely. And because they can't leave some starters without them while others have them. Also, I bet Arceus is gonna get something too because it's not the Pokémon with the highest BST anymore and they probably wanna change that.
And if UltraSM aren't a huge departure from SM it only makes sense they'll try to spice things up with new Mega Evolutions. I'm not so sure about new Alolan forms though, because it'd be impossible to justify them in-universe since the games can connect to SM and the absence of the new Alolan forms in SM's Alola wouldn't be able to be explained, unlike new Megas that just require new stones.

 

[Mrs. Oreo]

They need to give it Pokemon that need it like Flygon, who has no real competitive use.

I'd love to see Flygon get a Mega Evolution in US/UM. I remember being surprised that it didn't happen in OR/AS ha ha, but better late than never I guess. If Mega Evolution is a big deal again in US/UM I hope the Alola Starters get Megas as well. ^^

 

[Cutty]

And I thought they're gonna give all starters mega evolutions.
Anyway, I don't think we'll get new megas this gen, nor next gen.

Truth be told, nobody cares about Corsola, and giving it +100 BST isn't going to make it good considering it can't hold another item when mega evolving. If GameFreak for some reason thought Corsola was popular and deserved something to make it worth considering in a team they need to give it a regular evolution.

You forgot about ability. That's what makes lower tier pokemon like Beedril & Kangaskhan suddenly got popular after getting mega evolution (especially khan).

They need to give it Pokemon that need it like Flygon, who has no real competitive use.

It's actually got pretty decent use, especially after getting DD this gen.

But I see where you're coming from, many people want their fave pokemon get mega evos.

 

[Excitable Boy]

As for whether the two are mutually exclusive? Maybe partly they are when it comes to mega evolution.

if they're not intended to be balanced, why are they allowed in most competitions instead of being banned

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

if they're not intended to be balanced, why are they allowed in most competitions instead of being banned

Umm, if I remember correctly pretty much all PGL competitions this year had a ban on all mega stones. Plus I never said they weren't intended to be balanced. Some pokémon aren't intended to be balanced, like Zygarde, Kyogre, Mewtwo, and Rayquaza, and they simply ban them from pretty much all competitions, but for the rest there's at least some attempt of balancing (exceptions aside). What I'm saying is that the primary goal of introducing megas is not to balance that pokémon out or to give it new competitive viability. The primary goal is simply marketing. Making people buy the games because their favourite pokémon got a mega evolution. That's what decides who gets a mega and who doesn't. Only after that decision they start taking a look at how they could make that mega balanced to a certain degree.

 

[Excitable Boy]

Umm, if I remember correctly pretty much all PGL competitions this year had a ban on all mega stones.

is that the same ruleset that's focused on just Alola?

that's actually curious; I'm wondering if that's a balance thing, a theming thing, or a not enough legal Stones thing, because afaik they've been legal basically everywhere else that normally bans box legends etc.

Plus I never said they weren't intended to be balanced.

if the intent is not to balance them, then that's the same as letting them be unbalanced, no?

it's a distinction without a difference, considering they're not balanced

if Game Freak's going to let Megas exist as part of the game and let people use them while maintaining a relatively balanced metagame, then balancing Megas is non-optional. regardless of being intended for fanservice, they're still an aspect that affects competitive play

What I'm saying is that the primary goal of introducing megas is not to balance that pokémon out or to give it new competitive viability. The primary goal is simply marketing. Making people buy the games because their favourite pokémon got a mega evolution. That's what decides who gets a mega and who doesn't. Only after that decision they start taking a look at how they could make that mega balanced to a certain degree.

how are Megas different in this regard from literally any other aspect of the game? why is making people excited for new Megas for their favorites mutually exclusive with not overpowering them?

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

is that the same ruleset that's focused on just Alola?

that's actually curious; I'm wondering if that's a balance thing, a theming thing, or a not enough legal Stones thing, because afaik they've been legal basically everywhere else that normally bans box legends etc.

Nope. The tiny tourney also had them banned and that wasn't just Alola Dex.

if the intent is not to balance them, then that's the same as letting them be unbalanced, no?

Read that quote of mine again. I didn't say their intent is not to balance them. There is a double negative there, not a single negative.

it's a distinction without a difference, considering they're not balanced

if Game Freak's going to let Megas exist as part of the game and let people use them while maintaining a relatively balanced metagame, then balancing Megas is non-optional. regardless of being intended for fanservice, they're still an aspect that affects competitive play

how are Megas different in this regard from literally any other aspect of the game? why is making people excited for new Megas for their favorites mutually exclusive with not overpowering them?

You're missing my point. They don't introduce mega evolutions as a means to balance the game. They introduce mega evolutions for marketing, and then after designing them try to figure out stats and ability and stuff that keeps them somewhat balanced. Of course the game isn't balanced, it has over 800 pokémon and that's pretty much impossible to balance, let alone for different kinds of formats (4v4 doubles, 6v6 doubles, 3v3 singles, 6v6 singles, and so on). My point is that they're not going to go through the trouble of making freaking Corsola mega evolve because nobody cares about Corsola. There are far more popular pokémon out there that'd sell much better, like Dragonite, Infernape, Hydreigon, Goodra, or Hawlucha. If they think Corsola needs a boost they'll just give its regular form a boost by boosting its stats or giving it a new ability or something. It's what they did for Lunatone and Solrock, they didn't bother giving them megas, nobody cares about them.

Why is it exclusive? Because in a lot of cases the more popular pokémon tend to be the ones that are also fairly powerful. Ledian, Ariados, Corsola, Pelipper, Lunatone, Solrock, none of them are particularly popular and none of them was powerful prior to SM. And by letting already very powerful pokémon mega evolve you create a big power creep, which has the main problem that everything else gets lagged behind. Mega evolution overall has primarily been more detrimental to balance rather than boosting it in my opinion, especially Salamence and Lucario.