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Practicality of Critical Race Theory in modern politics (US and abroad)

Vernikova

Champion
Florida recently banned the teaching of it in its public schools, so I thought I would make a thread for it. Story here: https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/...s-take-center-stage-for-fla-dept-of-education

A short primer:

Critical Race Theory (CRT) is a Neo-Marxist framework that arose from legal scholarship in the 70s but has spread to other areas such as politics and education. As with any Marxist idea, CRT uses an "Oppressor vs Oppressed" narrative (specifically white vs nonwhite in the broader United States but may differ in other regions) seeks to examine laws and political systems and how these oppress nonwhite individuals. Proponents of CRT usually hold most if not all of the following:
  • Racism is a "normal" part of everyday life and is not an aberration.
  • The current system of power is designed or in place to maintain material and psychological power for the dominant group (white individuals in the broader US).
  • Race is a social construct, meaning that race has no biological reality and that it is primarily forged around relations between groups and individuals.
Proponents of the theory lies on a spectrum as it relates to possible solutions to their perceived issues. Idealist CRT proponents argue that because of the socially constructed nature of race, it's important to change the symbols (words, images, etc.), feelings, and teachings of change society's view of certain groups. CRT Realists see racism being rooted in material concerns such as examining why certain groups receive the prestige and the best of the tangible benefits within a society. To realists, material change must be addressed in order to solve the issue of racism. Naturally, the two sides are not mutually exclusive, and many can find themselves in the middle of these two ideas; however, there is tension between these two camps. In any case, CRT proponents will advocate for revisionist history, which amounts to re-framing history from the perspective of minority groups and emphasizing the experiences of individuals, citing a unique experience that an oppressor can't understand without the oppressed speaking out. CRT is also very much opposed to Liberalism, citing that universal standards not enough to address the systemic advantages that whites have through currents structures and laws.

Common criticisms of CRT include:
  • Difficulty to address intersectionality and advocating to for those that don't neatly fit into a racial group or may have more than "oppressed" feature e.g., black women, mixed people, etc.
  • Vague priorities as to how solve issues as a whole. There doesn't seem to be a cohesive message on how to move forward, and many of its ideas seem to have made little positive ideas.
  • Specifically to Idealist CRT: a tendency to side with left-wing Neo-Liberal agenda by simply marking "check boxes" rather than bringing material change to those who are impoverished e.g., ensuring that a board has X amount or Y percent of an oppressed group in its composition.
  • Specifically to Realist CRT: creating an ideology of "reverse racism" that may give less qualified or unqualified persons opportunities that they don't deserve e.g., admissions to colleges.
  • Reliance on the structure of "rights": by focusing on strengthening rights and appearances, they reinforce the broader structure of "Oppressed vs Oppressor" by merely shifting the narrative away from "White vs Nonwhite," leaving little improvement for classist struggles.
  • Places too much emphasis on an individual's experiences and has trouble progressing when individuals within the same group do not share such an experience e.g., generational differences in how to develop solutions.
  • Villainizes all white people, including those who have no prestige or material successes. Places too much emphasis on "racial" prestige rather than material prestige.
CRT is usually taught at the graduate level (e.g., grad school, law school, etc.). However, as some may know, CRT has been closely tangled with "Identity Politics" and "Wokeism" in recent years to the point where they have been taken from "intellectual elite" arena to the political arena where nuance and intelligence go to die. It seems that in every area, there is a tension that arises from either a battle between white and nonwhites or winners and losers. There is a strong pushback from conservatives (and the right-wing in general) and from populists (right-wing and left-wing) in regards to CRT for various reasons, some covered above. As we can see in this recent Florida case, it is conflated with "Wokeism," though it is not exactly the same. In any case, its decisiveness causes issues with implementation, which is aggravated because of its insertion into the culture wars. Though the left has been winning the culture wars for as long as I can remember, the rising populist movements of both wings take issues with its focuses and proposed solutions.

Another issue are the legal issues that arise from it. Campus hate speech rules, seen as necessary for some CRT proponents, have been struck down at the highest levels of the US legal system as unconstitutional. While there are some legal victories for CRT proponents (success of affirmative action for college admissions), it's in a very precarious position due to the appointment of many textualist or originalist judges during the last four years. There also seems to be a generational difference between nonwhites when it comes to issues. In New York City, for example, older nonwhites are against "defunding" initiatives as it relates to the police compared to younger nonwhites who are in favor of it. We also have, some would argue, the issue of a perceived attempt at racism towards the majority group while excusing racism by the oppressed. This creates a division between groups that would have to work together in order to enact this change without resorting to "judicial activism," which may be good for your causes but can always be used against you as well.

In any case, CRT is faces critical challenges as it has now become a forefront culture war issue. While this board is virtually filled with liberals, there are left-wing critiques of this movement, and this movement has a presence internationally. Some questions to guide discussion, but they're not necessary to answer (I'm just looking for some opinions from the users here):
  • What are your thoughts on CRT?
  • Is it a useful lens in modern discourse to look for solutions?
  • Is it too divisive to be implemented on a national level in the US in the foreseeable future? How is it handled in your country?
  • Do you have any criticism of CRT or its proponents?
  • What issues does CRT not address that you feel it should? Do you feel that it's inadequate in some areas?
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
The mainstream argument on race is still "is it okay to be racist or not," but the people who would have previously answered "yes" have been pushed to their fallback position of "anti-racism* has gone too far!" (*critical race theory, political correctness, cultural marxism etc)

The thing about what eventually gets any label, like CRT, is that it's about critical discussion about hard subjects, and potentially evaluating the effect it has had on your life, and there's a lot of people who'd just rather have ignorance.
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
The problem is that people want the right to be hateful to chase their perceived inevitable wealth, aka the "American Dream" Lie.

Because hate attracts money and power, to grow and maintain itself as a closed system, rather than function for any practical purpose.

Ergo, to chemotherapy the cancer(in the economical, geopolitical, sociopolitical, and biological senses in the context of Gaia Theory) that is hate, CRT must be taught to help reduce it into inactivity.

Hate serves no purpose in the Earth as an entity other than for people to indulge animalistic urges regarding fear, carrying out reproductive function and selfish self-preservation.

Hate consumes, hate cannibalizes, hate grows endlessly unless treated. Hate is cancer.

Thus, Critical Race Theory is a form of treatment of said cancer.

If people don't like the treatment because it is "expensive" in some way, then it should be given away for free.

Schools should remain free to give out the treatment.

Schools thus prevent and reduce risk of said cancer in the future.

If people are worried about the body being pitted against the cancer, maybe they should look for why they want to side with the cancer.

If they think the body has gone too far compared to the cancer, why was the cancer allowed to exist long enough for the body to do that?

If the body gets more chilly the more said freedumb to be more cancerous in the name of a greater union between body and cancer is supposedly threatened by treatment, lest the body become restricted as much, is the body not weighed down, limited and chilled by the cancer already, and thus the chills started before the cancer started basic treatment?

As it turns out, cancer isn't always on the skin or easily noticeable. Some cancers do more damage despite starting out tiny.

If the cancer is afraid of being fought off out of fear of new cells taking its place, then why did it manifest in the first place if it wasn't considering that possibility?

So in the end, cancer will defend & perpetuate cancer until cancer consumes the body beyond its sustainability. The immune system will not help. The brain is often compromised by the cancer and/or the immune system. Homeopathy doesn't help.

Ergo, Critical Race Theory's benefits outweighs any concerns the nay-sayers, who are almost always in bad faith(despite their protestations otherwise), can discharge.
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
The mainstream argument on race is still "is it okay to be racist or not," but the people who would have previously answered "yes" have been pushed to their fallback position of "anti-racism* has gone too far!" (*critical race theory, political correctness, cultural marxism etc)

The thing about what eventually gets any label, like CRT, is that it's about critical discussion about hard subjects, and potentially evaluating the effect it has had on your life, and there's a lot of people who'd just rather have ignorance.
.......why are we discussed pc and stuff in the kids games forum ?
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
.......why are we discussed pc and stuff in the kids games forum ?
Why not? It's relevant and topical, and kids on this site(breaking the rules in the process) can process far more than society gives credit.

But anyways...Critical Race Theory is but one validated treatment for systematic sickness in the world as an organism.
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
Why not? It's relevant and topical, and kids on this site(breaking the rules in the process) can process far more than society gives credit.

But anyways...Critical Race Theory is but one validated treatment for systematic sickness in the world as an organism.
If It (hatred) is treated like a cancer diagnosis then you will find a new way to deal with the problem then keeping do the samething over and over again otherwise most people are harm by it
 

Vernikova

Champion
The mainstream argument on race is still "is it okay to be racist or not," but the people who would have previously answered "yes" have been pushed to their fallback position of "anti-racism* has gone too far!" (*critical race theory, political correctness, cultural marxism etc)

The thing about what eventually gets any label, like CRT, is that it's about critical discussion about hard subjects, and potentially evaluating the effect it has had on your life, and there's a lot of people who'd just rather have ignorance.
While CRT may promote discussion on hard subjects, we still have to consider practical implementation of these theories. How viable do you think some of some of their proposed policies are in practice or to survive scrutiny? While there have been applications of CRT policies put into practice such as affirmative action have been implemented for years but still see challenges. As of 2016 it barely survived a SCOTUS ruling, but it's being brought up and possibly considered again in. and this time brought up by another minority (Asian), which highlights the differences experience that minorities may have amongst their own group.

Biden's farmer's fund has also been put on hold because it discriminates against white individuals according to federal courts. With policies such as affirmative action, they often survive because they promote diversity and are not the sole consideration. Something such as priority emergency funds may stall any equity initiatives of this sort.
The problem is that people want the right to be hateful to chase their perceived inevitable wealth, aka the "American Dream" Lie.

...

Ergo, Critical Race Theory's benefits outweighs any concerns the nay-sayers, who are almost always in bad faith(despite their protestations otherwise), can discharge.
Do you think there is any good faith criticism of CRT? And how do you convince white individuals to tolerate being discriminated against?

The Biden administration has decided that it will try to implement equity-based policies and relief and seems to be moving away from economic populist such federal minimum wage hikes (as an example). Could you go deeper as to why politicians should implement CRT policies, which are divisive and possibly will be curtailed, over more economically populist policies that would, in theory, lift a larger demographic?
Why not? It's relevant and topical, and kids on this site(breaking the rules in the process) can process far more than society gives credit.

But anyways...Critical Race Theory is but one validated treatment for systematic sickness in the world as an organism.
What other "treatments" do you want to see implemented? Are there parts of proposed CRT policy that you don't want to see implemented?
If It (hatred) is treated like a cancer diagnosis then you will find a new way to deal with the problem then keeping do the samething over and over again otherwise most people are harm by it
What criticisms do you have for CRT? Do you agree with any suggested policies that various civil rights groups have made? And what are your proposed solutions for their grievances if not?
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
Surviving a SCOTUS decision means nothing though, they repealed the Voting Rights Act on the basis that America "has moved past racism", when that couldn't be any more false.

That's the thing about history though, it's not a blank set of facts that never change over time, a good plan allows for critical thinking to re-evaluate what's taught, along with discussion of it's effects. The opposite of CRT is "Never change anything or scrutinize anything, this is the truth and if you say anything to the contrary even with evidence, you're the wrong one".

It's not that CRT is designed to tear stuff down or exclude things, but if someone is wrong or wants to hide bad past events they had no part in, but the way the act would have gladly participated in, then it does and should get called out for it.


E3s7qSfWUAQVlmJ


Take for example what the Florida Anti-CRT bill actually says, it's not even hiding it
 
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Vernikova

Champion
Surviving a SCOTUS decision means nothing though, they repealed the Voting Rights Act on the basis that America "has moved past racism", when that couldn't be any more false.

That's the thing about history though, it's not a blank set of facts that never change over time, a good plan allows for critical thinking to re-evaluate what's taught, along with discussion of it's effects. The opposite of CRT is "Never change anything or scrutinize anything, this is the truth and if you say anything to the contrary even with evidence, you're the wrong one".

It's not that CRT is designed to tear stuff down or exclude things, but if someone is wrong or wants to hide bad past events they had no part in, but the way the act would have gladly participated in, then it does and should get called out for it.


E3s7qSfWUAQVlmJ


Take for example what the Florida Anti-CRT bill actually says, it's not even hiding it
While theory is one thing, we still need to pay attention to application (or attempted application) in the real world. Surviving a SCOTUS decision has a lot of importance of the practicality of its implementation, which is, I presume, the beginning of dealing with racism in America for CRT proponents. While some people may denounce popular conservative commentators, their arguments are persuasive to beliefs that many Americans hold, even more moderate people (e.g., universalist standards), and it's important to engage those arguments not only in a factual sense but in a persuasive manner. I think when someone says "why should I and possibly my children endure discrimination for an unknown period of time when similar discrimination also negatively affected your family" then it warrants an answer.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
"Those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat those same mistakes in the future" is good enough for me.

One thing to consider is you won't persuade everyone, so you focus on the truth, then those who will listen to it.

Especially because these people aren't being discriminated against, they're just losing an advantage they had in life less privileged groups of people didn't have and things are focused more on equality.
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
"Those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat those same mistakes in the future" is good enough for me.

One thing to consider is you won't persuade everyone, so you focus on the truth, then those who will listen to it.

Especially because these people aren't being discriminated against, they're just losing an advantage they had in life less privileged groups of people didn't have and things are focused more on equality.
If loses their "White Privilege" is help then i am fine with it but in time will transfer to the poc and crt could affect them in in negative way and i already sew a hating in white peoples that slow set in motion.....i saw and watch the many people of color whose has a white family members is against crt bill and started pull their mix childrens out of school....crt bill need be deal with in most civilised way and should be criticized without even over emotional about it and about Anit-crt Bill is sound great idea but wont deal with actual issues creating a crt from 60's era that change over times
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
That’s not how it works though? It’s a process to work towards real equality, not “it’s your turn to be the oppressor now”
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
That’s not how it works though? It’s a process to work towards real equality, not “it’s your turn to be the oppressor now”
Maybe look that way but i am still wary of both of the CRT and Anit-CRT Bill
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
But there’s no reason to be? It’s more a discussion of human history in an effort to better ourselves as a species and fix long standing issues, not some grudge match where winner takes all.
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
But there’s no reason to be? It’s more a discussion of human history in an effort to better ourselves as a species and fix long standing issues, not some grudge match where winner takes all.
There is a reason for me to wary of how both bill affected the way of normal peoples as Canadians we do get affected by such bill that claims would help us disable peoples and first national peoples in worst way
 
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bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
I mean as a Canadian you’d be exempt from American bills for obvious reasons.
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
I mean as a Canadian you’d be exempt from American bills for obvious reasons.
Yeah but we have similar bill help lgbt yet most of these people barely got any jobs in 2019 .....made worse in the covid-19 of 20 and 21.

*noted that i think we did have a similar bill that crt help poc then nothing out of it in past.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
This isn’t a federal jobs bill or an equal rights bill, just a movement to teach history in a way where those have been historically silenced or discriminated against get more focused than those who were historically oppressors.

Obviously the other stuff should be done as well, but this is only one part of that
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
This isn’t a federal jobs bill or an equal rights bill, just a movement to teach history in a way where those have been historically silenced or discriminated against get more focused than those who were historically oppressors.

Obviously the other stuff should be done as well, but this is only one part of that
Did some research claims crt should be in bill in the way that is similar jobs or equal rights bill back in 2013-17 ?
And then you should at least do administer some school money bill to cover some historical issues that feel deal with racial discrimination ?.....as our North America school education system suck in both USA and Canada
 
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Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
What criticisms do you have for CRT? Do you agree with any suggested policies that various civil rights groups have made? And what are your proposed solutions for their grievances if not?

If loses their "White Privilege" is help then i am fine with it but in time will transfer to the poc and crt could affect them in in negative way and i already sew a hating in white peoples that slow set in motion.....i saw and watch the many people of color whose has a white family members is against crt bill and started pull their mix childrens out of school....crt bill need be deal with in most civilised way and should be criticized without even over emotional about it and about Anit-crt Bill is sound great idea but wont deal with actual issues creating a crt from 60's era that change over times
 
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