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Practicality of Critical Race Theory in modern politics (US and abroad)

Vernikova

Champion
"Those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat those same mistakes in the future" is good enough for me.

One thing to consider is you won't persuade everyone, so you focus on the truth, then those who will listen to it.

Especially because these people aren't being discriminated against, they're just losing an advantage they had in life less privileged groups of people didn't have and things are focused more on equality.
I can't agree with that reasoning because it ignores the necessary state-level solutions that CRT proponents argue will need to be implemented. Most states are Republican-run, so it's necessary to mobilize or convince those voters to go out and vote for people who will implement those policies. The federal government isn't powerful enough to solve the issues. For instance, let's look at Biden's recent restaurant relief: https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/f...on Fund Program Guide as of 4.28.21-508_0.pdf

It's arbitrary in its implementation. Why is the standard set to 51% minority or woman owned? What about a husband-wife-owned business? Or 50% minority owned? It allows for rich foreign investors from China to receive aid who employees a 100% male staff, but if your restaurant employs a mostly minority staff yet happens to be owned by a white male, then you're at risk of not getting any funding. Some people may argue that federal relief may happen to miss these people, but that's exactly why it needs convincing power at the state level for a majority of the states.

Also, practical application of CRT principles is necessarily discriminatory. Even CRT theorists such as Ibram Kendi acknowledge that discrimination will be necessary. A part of actually equalizing isn't simply changing laws or instituting police reform but economically "catching up" minorities. For instance, Biden's restaurant relief that I linked above, which prioritizes minority and female applicants regardless of financial need has been blocked twice in two separate federal courts on the basis of discrimination: you can read the decisions here and here.

In fact the "those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat those same mistakes in the future" argument is being used in law right now in order to argue that present discrimination is not a solution to solve past discrimination because, and I paraphrase, "the solution to discrimination is not to continue discrimination but to cease discrimination," which is an equally valid conclusion to your argument "
Those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat those same mistakes in the future."

If loses their "White Privilege" is help then i am fine with it but in time will transfer to the poc and crt could affect them in in negative way and i already sew a hating in white peoples that slow set in motion.....i saw and watch the many people of color whose has a white family members is against crt bill and started pull their mix childrens out of school....crt bill need be deal with in most civilised way and should be criticized without even over emotional about it and about Anit-crt Bill is sound great idea but wont deal with actual issues creating a crt from 60's era that change over times
Why do you support an "anti-CRT bill"? What are the solutions do you have for the grievances that CRT proponents have? For example, blacks were discriminated against in post-World War II America when it came to home loans, losing the opportunity to build wealth (in the form of property) for decades? Black farmers have also been discriminated against in the past. What are your solutions to help these people now? What should be done about past discrimination today? Should anything be done at all?
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
That’s the big issue though, is that in the moment minority groups do need a slight boost to fight discrimination that will go away over time as things equal out. We are talking about hundreds of years of a big issue.

But that talk also runs into the problem of “why do anything then?” Why this is so bad now is we’ve coddled the wrong people and any attempt to placate them has come at the cost of these groups of people, so it’s just going to get worse as we’re at the point where slavery itself cannot be discussed.

Plus CRT is at its core a guideline and theory, and that means it changes and adapts over time. There’s not really any bills forcing it, just bills banning teaching facts, which historically doesn’t come off well. Part of teaching kids critical theory and thinking is so they can go off and learn and teach themselves, not just told a list of things they need to memorize and immediately forget.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
Also I’ll note that this is another issue where this is one part of a big solution. We need federal job programs and improved healthcare and higher minimum wages for everyone, and many of those in support of this stuff know this is just as necessary.

It’s an issue where if you do one small part of something and things aren’t immediately fixed right out the gate, it’s treated as a failure
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
Why do you support an "anti-CRT bill"?
Nothing said that i support bill .....just said it is sound nice but won't deal with actual issues that i have with crt may lead more discrimination or worse a race wars but i suppose you said that i actually want more bill that give money to the school to fix this piss poor school education system didn't help any kids learn more about how real world and should be able to how used money properly and stopped sugar coat historical events
 
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Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
I think we should always be taught subjects critically.

It would be naive to believe that US history was all sunshine and rainbows within its borders, and that everyone on the American side was a virtuous person with absolutely no flaws whatsoever.

Heck, when I started college formally for the first time, I had to read about the Reconstruction era. It basically stated how African Americans were repeatedly screwed even though they were supposed to be free.

It isn't about "hating your country", it's about learning about its history critically.
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
People don't want to implement it because they don't want to deal with the emotions of being re-exqmined and loss of a vestment of power.

Soft-shelled cowards, bigots are.
 

Vernikova

Champion
That’s the big issue though, is that in the moment minority groups do need a slight boost to fight discrimination that will go away over time as things equal out. We are talking about hundreds of years of a big issue.

But that talk also runs into the problem of “why do anything then?” Why this is so bad now is we’ve coddled the wrong people and any attempt to placate them has come at the cost of these groups of people, so it’s just going to get worse as we’re at the point where slavery itself cannot be discussed.

Plus CRT is at its core a guideline and theory, and that means it changes and adapts over time. There’s not really any bills forcing it, just bills banning teaching facts, which historically doesn’t come off well. Part of teaching kids critical theory and thinking is so they can go off and learn and teach themselves, not just told a list of things they need to memorize and immediately forget.
The slight boost does come in the form of discrimination, though, which is the point I'm making. And I'm not sure it leads to a "why do anything" question. The topic is just about implementing the various proposed policies and how one could go about that, and if one rejects CRT what other solutions are there. I admit that for the latter question, there haven't been many rejecting it, so it's hard to really engage those individuals. While it did being as an interpretive lens to view societal structure, it's not being applied to real life, and we can't simply fall back to it simply being a theory anymore.

I assume none of us have specific proposals on how to go about solving these issues, but I find that it's good to think about these types of things as a way to analyze one's own position.
Also I’ll note that this is another issue where this is one part of a big solution. We need federal job programs and improved healthcare and higher minimum wages for everyone, and many of those in support of this stuff know this is just as necessary.

It’s an issue where if you do one small part of something and things aren’t immediately fixed right out the gate, it’s treated as a failure
Sure, I think those are fair proposals. How would you choose which programs to would be the ones to give the boost to minorities? Would you choose all of them? Or would you only prioritize financial programs (e.g., relief)?
Nothing said that i support bill .....just said it is sound nice but won't deal with actual issues that i have with crt may lead more discrimination or worse a race wars but i suppose you said that i actually want more bill that give money to the school to fix this piss poor school education system didn't help any kids learn more about how real world and should be able to how used money properly and stopped sugar coat historical events
You said it was nice, so I assumed that you supported it. Apologies. I see that you're from Canada. I missed that m first time around when it was mentioned. My husband is from Canada. Quebec actually. I'm not so good with French, but Montreal has a large enough English-speaking population for me to get by. While much of Montreal news is in French, there is some in English. One of the pressing concerns for CRT polices in America is the laws at various levels that value "equality" over "equity." In Canada, I'm aware, is a troubled history with the native population there.

In American CRT circles, there have been attempts (that have mostly resulted in failure) to institute campus hate speech codes. That is, punishment by colleges to curb hate speech being espoused on its campuses. The issue is that it's not legal to do that in America. In Canada, though, there are hate speech laws against "any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or mental or physical disability." Apparently, they credit American CRT theorists, though I don't have firsthand knowledge myself. How have these laws affected that relationship? Have they improved in some ways? Or is there no change? Have things become worse?
I think we should always be taught subjects critically.

It would be naive to believe that US history was all sunshine and rainbows within its borders, and that everyone on the American side was a virtuous person with absolutely no flaws whatsoever.

Heck, when I started college formally for the first time, I had to read about the Reconstruction era. It basically stated how African Americans were repeatedly screwed even though they were supposed to be free.

It isn't about "hating your country", it's about learning about its history critically.
What do you mean by "critically"? I was taught about Reconstruction in middle school (NYC public school in the 00s, if that matters). What makes it "critical" as opposed to what is currently being taught?
People don't want to implement it because they don't want to deal with the emotions of being re-exqmined and loss of a vestment of power.

Soft-shelled cowards, bigots are.
Well, I don't agree with that. An underlying issue with CRT that doesn't get talked about (which isn't surprising since it's now culture war fodder) is the basic debate about the role of the government and how much it should interfere in things. CRT proposals would also need to essentially re-work the US judiciary process to be more similar to Canada's in terms of decision making, which would be a colossal change. There are lots of things to push back on that simply have nothing to do with bigotry. Please remember that this sprung off from Critical Legal Studies, and it's closely tied into law and spread from there, not the other way around.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
The mainstream argument on race is still "is it okay to be racist or not," but the people who would have previously answered "yes" have been pushed to their fallback position of "anti-racism* has gone too far!" (*critical race theory, political correctness, cultural marxism etc)

The thing about what eventually gets any label, like CRT, is that it's about critical discussion about hard subjects, and potentially evaluating the effect it has had on your life, and there's a lot of people who'd just rather have ignorance.
Anti-Racism. Now that's a term I haven't heard in a long time. As someone who has lived in a society that has long practiced anti-racism, I must ask. Does the term these days still honor it's US military roots? Rooted from the days when military bases in the south were called the "Free Islands in the sea of Jim Crow Laws" when an civvy outsider would be shocked to see a black boy dating a white girl at a military prom. Although I'm not gonna lie, I don't know much about CRT to have an opinion of it but you mentioning political correctness and cultural marxism has me, as someone who is not much a fan of that, worried that people don't understand how anti-racism properly functions because trust me on this. Anti-racism is the key to putting racism on the path to near-destruction. I know it works because I've seen it and I've lived it and from what I understand, so many people don't understand you need a conservative mind to push a progressive law and you need a progressive mind to push a conservative law to understand how anti-racism functions properly in communities. I confuse so many people with that statement. To them I often say, perhaps you are not as conservative or as progressive as you think, that you are not as open minded as you claim to be. I've pissed off so many people with that statement too lol.
 
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bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
I mean the conservative position with this is that Racism is over and we shouldn't discuss things like slavery or what actually happened in history, instead what makes a certain group of people feel good, so I'm unsure why a conservative mind is needed to pass a progressive law.
 
I don't really know enough about CRT to have an opinion (all discussions about it are bogged down in heavy ivory tower academic jargon that I don't to strain my brain for. speaking of that though, do they have das kapital: for dummies!....? That would be great.) but I think states moving to out right ban it is ridiculous.

It's just hard to take seriously when there's other curricula in schools way more damaging, like abstinence only education, but this is getting the axe in different places because white people are uncomfortable. Like, I'm sure you can quibble with it here and there in certain respects like you can most theories in social science, but it's not like creationism - it actually has an academic background and is informed by study.
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
Canada, I'm aware, is a troubled history with the native population there.
It. Is pretty much a problem that i was talk about lack of good school education system and when we do get em is 96% sugar coated kid friendly bs
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
I don't really know enough about CRT to have an opinion (all discussions about it are bogged down in heavy ivory tower academic jargon that I don't to strain my brain for. speaking of that though, do they have das kapital: for dummies!....? That would be great.) but I think states moving to out right ban it is ridiculous.

It's just hard to take seriously when there's other curricula in schools way more damaging, like abstinence only education, but this is getting the axe in different places because white people are uncomfortable. Like, I'm sure you can quibble with it here and there in certain respects like you can most theories in social science, but it's not like creationism - it actually has an academic background and is informed by study.

Right now it isn't even taught in anything below college level as an explicit thing, but it's brought up to counter the weird revisionism history Conservatives keep pushing to avoid talking about bad things America did in it's past that has effects to this day.


Stuff like this basically, where the counter is we should teach actual history to the best of our knowledge, not weird apologia propaganda.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
I mean the conservative position with this is that Racism is over and we shouldn't discuss things like slavery or what actually happened in history, instead what makes a certain group of people feel good, so I'm unsure why a conservative mind is needed to pass a progressive law.
No. That's what you think the conservative position is just like the conservatives basically think the liberal position is "Oh my goooood! The liberals are wasting resources on CRT. All CRT is just an over-complicated version of racism is wrong and that it exists on many levels, something that is already taught to children by their parents as common sense and through history like the horrors of slavery and the holocaust! Why are the liberals wasting resources on CRT when resources could be invested elsewhere!" NGL, I find it odd how many of you liberal folk have so much in common with the conservative folk. I find it somewhat hilarious.

Anyways, you misread me. When I said conservative mindset, I meant traditions to be specific. And I also didn't mean pass law, I meant enforce through a diverse range of mindsets. One needs to understand that anti-racism can work as both a progressive and a conservative ideal. Think of it as more of a function of a community where all kinds of participants exist. In that community there are traditions often upheld by the conservatives and these traditions help forge an identity of that community. It helps keep them together but that's only one part of it. The other part is progress and some traditions do need to die in favor of progress. You do need a no-bullshit progressive attitude to an extant if you want to carry out anti-racism. For example, I know an elderly black man that gets pissed off when ever he is called the "N" word by younger generations of black folk, he often chastises them and teaches them that it's wrong to call each other that way as a casual word. That is an example of anti-racism at it's absolute. How far would one take anti-racism exactly? Also you also need to understand what does it mean to be "progressive" and in the name of anti-racism, how do the adults work together, how do the children play together, how do they interact with each other from one setting to another. One thing I do know lol, is never talk politics at the dinner table which is funny since everything I mentioned is about a society that needs one and the other to cooperate. It sounds simple and obvious though doesn't it? Unfortunately too many people like to toss out variables, thinking liberals or conservatives don't belong in their vision of a perfect future. That's how it all falls apart, how it backfires, how progress slows down.
 

Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
Are conservatives against CRT? If so, then it can't be all bad. I don't want to have to think critically about this.

EDIT: The Daily Show did a segment about CRT today. Sounds like its opponents are mostly just racists.
 
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Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
No. That's what you think the conservative position is just like the conservatives basically think the liberal position is "Oh my goooood! The liberals are wasting resources on CRT. All CRT is just an over-complicated version of racism is wrong and that it exists on many levels, something that is already taught to children by their parents as common sense and through history like the horrors of slavery and the holocaust! Why are the liberals wasting resources on CRT when resources could be invested elsewhere!" NGL, I find it odd how many of you liberal folk have so much in common with the conservative folk. I find it somewhat hilarious.

Anyways, you misread me. When I said conservative mindset, I meant traditions to be specific. And I also didn't mean pass law, I meant enforce through a diverse range of mindsets. One needs to understand that anti-racism can work as both a progressive and a conservative ideal. Think of it as more of a function of a community where all kinds of participants exist. In that community there are traditions often upheld by the conservatives and these traditions help forge an identity of that community. It helps keep them together but that's only one part of it. The other part is progress and some traditions do need to die in favor of progress. You do need a no-bullshit progressive attitude to an extant if you want to carry out anti-racism. For example, I know an elderly black man that gets pissed off when ever he is called the "N" word by younger generations of black folk, he often chastises them and teaches them that it's wrong to call each other that way as a casual word. That is an example of anti-racism at it's absolute. How far would one take anti-racism exactly? Also you also need to understand what does it mean to be "progressive" and in the name of anti-racism, how do the adults work together, how do the children play together, how do they interact with each other from one setting to another. One thing I do know lol, is never talk politics at the dinner table which is funny since everything I mentioned is about a society that needs one and the other to cooperate. It sounds simple and obvious though doesn't it? Unfortunately too many people like to toss out variables, thinking liberals or conservatives don't belong in their vision of a perfect future. That's how it all falls apart, how it backfires, how progress slows down.
One black guy said a thing from a casual observation:Thus progressives should work with those out to destroy everybody else.

This is even lazier than "this is my black friend, therefore I'm not racist".
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
Are conservatives against CRT? If so, then it can't be all bad. I don't want to have to think critically about this.

EDIT: The Daily Show did a segment about CRT today. Sounds like its opponents are mostly just racists.
Well some democrats and liberals (like me )are against it too and some republicans support crt ...it is are you team crt or Anita-Crt thing
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
I mean I wouldn’t call myself liberal, but anyone who uses a label to apply themselves first and the ideas second usually doesn’t do things right.

Again, this is more a focus on teaching what happened historically in school, to educate people so accurate and responsible actions can be taken to help lessen the effects negative actions in history have caused.

It should be noted this isn’t even a pure race thing, that’s just a label that applied to it. We should also focus more on how labor activists fought and died in the street for a five day work week, but that also brings up uncomfortable talks about how things are currently.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
One black guy said a thing from a casual observation:Thus progressives should work with those out to destroy everybody else.

This is even lazier than "this is my black friend, therefore I'm not racist".
Lol, it's not as simple as you think.

He was an old black guy who bore scars from his arms to the back of his neck. Where did he get it? I don't know but everyone I knew respected the man and his no-bullshit attitude and part of that attitude was educating the younger generation of black folk not to go around casually using the "N" word so casually. Did it work? Don't know but why did he do so? Not really sure, he never spoke up why outside of that he felt normalizing the usage of a word so casually kept the "N" word alive, a word he saw as racially-insensitive regardless of who used it, in a time he felt it should've died off long time ago. I see him educating the younger generation of black folk on the subject as a byproduct of anti-racism in that no one is excluded from the moral lessons the community offers. That's what anti-racism does mean in it's absolute, where no one is excluded from it. It's quite different from simply "I have a black friend, so I'm not racist." for you see, that statement is just a lazy attempt to excludes one self from racial judgement while the other carries a sense of history behind the motivation and doesn't so easily exclude others and because of that, the casual usage of the "N" word carries much more racial-insensitivity for one person.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
The point is it’s not simple though, and we should teach what exactly happened in history to make a word potentially wrong or uncomfortable to use, and if there is power in claiming it or burying it from use.

Which is why the focus is heavily on critical thinking, because it’s not a simple yes/no answer a lot of the time, and you need to put effort into understanding context
 
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