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Prejudice Plus Power and Racism and Sexism

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by U.N. Owen, Apr 21, 2017.

  1. U.N. Owen

    U.N. Owen In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...

    There has been a lot of talk about how to define racism, one of which is the power argument. Is this a valid definition? Why? How does this affect views of racism/sexism across the board? Is this a mere excuse to be racist and sexist? How does this work at the individual level?
     
  2. satopi

    satopi Go’s Scyther is indestriketible! <3

    I'm not sure if power has that much to do with defining racism. I think racism has to do with one's pride and having the assumption that one is better than the other due to features they possess that are considered desirable and what's considered normal to see because of their society. I also think history has a big part to do with strengthening racism/sexism. To me, power has more to do with capitalizing your country by conquering other places to claim your own like what Britain did back then. Dominance sounds more fit to say in my opinion. I also feel that some people miss the point in what defines racism/sexism. Some people seem to think just by saying someone's race is racist just because or making a slight race joke based on stereotypes is deemed inappropriate because it's offensive (most cases being the offended person not being the targeted race). What defines prejudice is the subconscious thought of thinking when a person approaches someone of a different appearance, said person automatically has to act differently, change their actions and altitude around a person different from them and have thoughts based on what they know of their race/country/beliefs and judge them based on said details. It's the same with sexism. Women are always going to be seen as weak and mothers because of naturally being less physically stronger than men and assuming the greatest gift a woman could have is a baby.

    I think it takes a lot of open mindedness and willingness to accept others as equals. Racism/sexism is taught, not something every baby believes when he/she comes out of the womb.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  3. Bananarama

    Bananarama The light is coming

    I definitely think that racism has evolved to be primarily a power plus prejudice form of oppression. I think that the main difference between racism and plain prejudice is, in fact, the power involved. In the USA, you can always feel prejudice and resentment towards white people, but your race doesn't have the political and economic means to actively oppress them. White people, however, currently have those means and are able to oppress minorities, especially African Americans, with drastically higher rates of incarceration and murder by law enforcement, among other things.

    While I'm not saying that all white people, or any specific number or percentage, are racist, they currently are the only racial group that has the ability to oppress minorities.
     
  4. snorlax512

    snorlax512 Well-Known Member

    Stupidest thing ever heard. First off, why define power to be solely confined within he boundaries of politics and economics? I don't think the white guy who got tied up and tortured on live stream by four black guys had any "power". Don't worry, I'm sure he was fine since he was richer.

    Secondly, it is kiddie logic to say that since on average, white people have more political and economic power than black people, therefore every single white person has more political and economic power than every single black person. Please explain how big Joe from Alabama can be 'racist' to Barack Obama using his superior political and economic influence.

    EDIT: That logic is even more hilarious applied to sexism, because the incarceration and sentencing gap between men and women is, ironically, infinitely higher than the gap between black and white.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  5. chess-z

    chess-z campy vampire

    Snorlax is back everyone! He clearly didnt' learn anything from in his absence, but that's fine. We need someone to be obstinately incorrect about these things so that we keep on talking about them. We've talked about these issues before, at length, so you all know where I stand.

    Snorlax, bring up something that isn't a cherry picked anecdote. I know big statistical trends are hard to understand, but they're what actually matter.
     
  6. Bananarama

    Bananarama The light is coming

    You make it sound like white people are being oppressed just because of that one rare incident. I don't remember white people being stolen from their homelands and being tortured, raped and denied human rights by black people.

    Exactly.

    You're completely misconstruing my definition of racism. It's not on an individual basis, it's systemic. The system is stacked up against black people, but it isn't that way for white people.
     
  7. snorlax512

    snorlax512 Well-Known Member

    You've simply replaced the definition of racism with systemic racism. What is the purpose? Your definition fits neither the dictionary definition nor the definition used in everyday language (which is racism = belief that one race is superior to another), and you are doing no benefit to society by telling black people that they cannot be racist.

    Racism ultimately hurts individuals. The problem with social collectivism is that it values groups over individuals. The white person who was tortured won't think "Oh, this doesn't happen on a large scale to people who share a common characteristic with me (white skin), therefore it's not racism!"

    Just because an individual lacks the capacity to exercise racism through institutions does not mean he cannot exercise it through other means.
     
  8. chess-z

    chess-z campy vampire

    The problem with Indvidualism as opposed to collectivism is that it is blind to the suffering of groups in favor of the suffering of indviduals. Racism is a bigger problem for black people than it is for white people.
     
  9. snorlax512

    snorlax512 Well-Known Member

    Sure, racism is a bigger problem for black people but how does this contradict the fact that black people can be racist as well? If a Christian blows up a hospital, I'm sure you wouldn't say that since there is a larger problem of Islamic extremists than Christian extremists, the act of that Christian individual doesn't count as terrorism?
     
  10. chess-z

    chess-z campy vampire

    Next point: Since racism is a bigger problem for black people, we need to adress it first.
     
  11. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    As I pointed out in the other thread, the reason for the sentencing gap is that women defendants before sentencing courts are often presented and views as nurturers, dependants and victims of circumstance and hence were seen as less dangerous and blameworthy making punitive sanction less appropriate, where as male offenders were seen as bad and disruptive: https://www.researchgate.net/profil...al_justice/links/55e63e9908aec74dbe74e5dd.pdf

    It doesn't demonstrate that women have any broad position of power of men in society. After all the majority of judges handing down these sentences are men.

    Feminist scholars are split as to how they view the sentencing gap, and in fact some view the judicial protection of women as stemming from patriarchal ideas about traditional gender roles and hence see the sentencing disparity as reaffirming mens dominance over women. As MacKinnon writes

    http://www.feministes-radicales.org...sm-Unmodified.-Discourses-on-life-and-law.pdf - Page 38

    Other scholars argue there are differences between social positioning of men and women that make sentencing disparities warranted - Poverty, victimisation and dependency are more likely to affect women's lives than mens.

    Plus, where states have implemented punitive criminal justice reforms such as mandatory sentencing minimums and get tough on crime attitudes like in the US, its largely eliminated sex differences in sentencing because of an increase in women's imprisonment: http://digitalcommons.pepperdine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1612&context=plr

    As I pointed about, again from the first article I linked, prisons are harsher for women than they are for men. There are less education, vocational and recreational programs in womens prisons, women receive fewer visits and are often incarcerated in prison long distances away from family and friends, histories of abuse make prison worse.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  12. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    The problem is when they try and make racism against white people an aspect they then try and make it the only focus.
     
  13. satopi

    satopi Go’s Scyther is indestriketible! <3

    I do agree that white people do have the ability to "oppress" other races in a way. Maybe it's just a subconscious thought that society pressures minorities to be like for example, minorities like say, black people have to look a certain way (no dreadlocks because that gives the impression that they're dangerous and hood rats making customers frightened around them that hurts business), act a certain way, speak more properly with no accent (so that it doesn't make them seem dumb), and prove to others that they're not a stereotype just because of the race they were born with. They already have to deal with prejudicial assumptions like being seen as suspicious if they're in a group or having to deal with dumb precautions like, "Oh don't worry, I have a mixed grandchild." It really isn't fair when people of color are usually seen as genetically inferior. :(

    But I absolutely can't stand it when minorities use the race card over feeling entitled. I think I already dealt with sexism in the last thread. Women will usually have the upperhand against guys due to century long beliefs that women being fragile non threatening beings who every child needs.... and property. It took quite a long time before women, people of color, and those not seen as normal (LGBT, atheist, unorthodox thinkers) finally got rights and treated as human beings.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  14. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    You say that like women, people of color, and LGBT people are actually on even ground now despite the barest of measures being put forth.
     
  15. U.N. Owen

    U.N. Owen In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...

    I'm thinking he means equality before the law, not anywhere else. Even then, that's stretching it because a rapist and sue their victims for child support, I think Florida has discriminations against asians coded into law (Alien Land Law), and LGBT have their whole marriage debacle.
     
  16. snorlax512

    snorlax512 Well-Known Member

    ok this is why I don't take feminists seriously. Men getting 60% longer sentences than women for the same crime apparently "reaffirms mens dominance over women". First of all, who is stupid enough to establish a hierarchal system which lands the 'dominant class' behind bars?

    Secondly:
    You can really twist any stereotype to suit your agenda.

    The stereotypes of blacks being 'bad and disruptive' would be evidence of them being victims of oppression by whites.

    If you change the analogy to men and women, where men are 'bad and disruptive' it affirms how men are oppressors establishing their dominance over women.

    Truth is, there is nothing objectively better about being 'bad and disruptive' than being 'nurturing and victimised'. If you wish to establish a social collectivist worldview where one class is the oppressor and the other oppressed, then of course, you will find one to be dominant over another.

    Sentencing isn't just about retribution. The other three purposes of punishment - incapacitation, deterrence and rehabilitation (the most important purpose) have nothing to do with those factors.

    As I've said before, lack of entertainment in prison is barely even a concern. In the most brutal male prisons, your safety is. Frankly, the number of criminals in male prisons (per capita) for violent crime far exceeds that of female prisons. We both know that men are also physically stronger, more violent and less empathetic than women, so there is no point in saying that male prisons are better than female prisons. That's just not true.

    My point is simply if you discriminate against a person for being white, that's racism. (Pretty much the whole point of this thread)
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  17. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    The American Prison System is poorly designed in a lot of ways. Also sentencing women shorter falls into the trap of assuming women are just naturally lesser or weaker, which is why modern feminism pushes for equality in regards to things like that.
     
  18. U.N. Owen

    U.N. Owen In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...

    My primary problem with this definition is how pretentious the whole thing is. Who gives you the right to say a white woman that lives paycheck-by-paycheck is more privileged than an asian woman who makes the software for iPhones for a living and can make her own hours? It feels like we're taking entire groups and forcing them into tiny boxes based on race and gender. Is that not stereotyping?
     
  19. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    Specific people aren't represented by the statistics of whole groups. If 2% of cancer patients live a horrible disease they don't tell someone "Well you have a 2% chance of living", because that's not how it works. That's why a lot of people who act like racism is over point out single persons who did beat the odds and weren't as oppressed as others in their group due to specific factors. It's more saying "X race is being affected much more by this, so more effort should be put towards them, but in general help should be done so all benefit". But like I keep pointing out those with the least to gain get mad about it for whatever reason.
     
  20. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    I suggest reading the article I cited. If you choose not to take feminists seriously, that is up to you, but I did cite a in depth and researched article by a academic in the field of criminology.
    Simply stating Men getting 60% longer sentences than women for the same crime apparently "reaffirms mens dominance over women" is not a correct conception of the view. What the article said was the factors that result in disparate sentencing perpetuate negative and harmful stereotypes even if they have a protective effect here:

    Bobjr also repeated this point.

    I don't have an agenda. I was citing the articles explanation as to why sentencing disparities arise. My point was that many of the factor that are protective of women in sentencing come from the same attitudes and stereotype that disadvantage women in political and economic life. Never did I once say that concept was correct or fair.

    In actual fact, if you read the article, you'll note the authors conclusion (with which I agree) is that the criminal justice system needs to acknowledge factors that disadvantage and disempower men as it does for women.

    If you want to make that claim about men's prisons your going to need to cite a source. And you seem to be ignoring the fact that abuse happens in women's prisons as well - from the prison staff. Again, as stated in the article:

    The article didn't just cite lack of recreational programs in prisons. It also noted the lack of vocational and educational opportunities too - programs designed to help prisoners find work and adjust to life post release. On top of that there was increased likelihood of being cut off from family, stricter rules for prisoners and that women are more likely to enter prison with histories of abuse.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017

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