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Prejudice Plus Power and Racism and Sexism

lemoncatpower

Cynical Optimist
We, homo sapiens, are a sexually dimorphic species. The mechanism we have evolved to propagate our species involves the fusion of two distinct gametes from opposite sexes, and that holds true whether society has created the term 'male' or 'female' or not. On the other hand, the amount of pigment on your skin can be divided and interpreted however you want, depending on the society you live in.

Your point being? Gender doesn't equal sex, and you're referring to sex. Yes, for mating purposes, we have two distinct sexes. Other than mating purposes, and by mating I mean procreation, I don't know many other uses for separating the sexes other than statistics. Chances of breast and prostate cancers may differ, and same with having vaginal issues or penis issues, but again those body parts are to do with procreation.

As we are a highly advanced species living in very complicated and highly specialized societies, such primitive distinctions between human beings are not needed unless you're wanting to procreate. Even then, again as we are highly specialized, such distinctions between human beings are becoming very moot as procreation can be done without the need for two different sexes.

But just to point out, most aboriginal communities had Two-spirited people accepted into society before the Europeans came over and turned them all into Christians. Multiple genders have existed for a very very long time.
 
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snorlax512

Well-Known Member
Your point being? Gender doesn't equal sex, and you're referring to sex. Yes, for mating purposes, we have two distinct sexes. Other than mating purposes, and by mating I mean procreation, I don't know many other uses for separating the sexes other than statistics. Chances of breast and prostate cancers may differ, and same with having vaginal issues or penis issues, but again those body parts are to do with procreation.

As we are a highly advanced species living in very complicated and highly specialized societies, such primitive distinctions between human beings are not needed unless you're wanting to procreate. Even then, again as we are highly specialized, such distinctions between human beings are becoming very moot as procreation can be done without the need for two different sexes.

But just to point out, most aboriginal communities had Two-spirited people accepted into society before the Europeans came over and turned them all into Christians. Multiple genders have existed for a very very long time.
I'm just saying biological sex is not a social construct...

Also, what do you mean by 'primitive distinctions' lol. Biological sex is just another way to categorise things, the same as 'species', 'hair colour' and 'height'. You know, pretty much the reason why we have language?

You also realise that diseases harm men and women in different ways, and that doctors use this 'primitive distinction' to save lives right?
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
i mean.. categorization isn't safe from being a social construct. just about everything we categorize is constructed in a way only humans can understand.
 

lemoncatpower

Cynical Optimist
I'm just saying biological sex is not a social construct...

Also, what do you mean by 'primitive distinctions' lol. Biological sex is just another way to categorise things, the same as 'species', 'hair colour' and 'height'. You know, pretty much the reason why we have language?

You also realise that diseases harm men and women in different ways, and that doctors use this 'primitive distinction' to save lives right?

The reason we have a language is for easily conveying thoughts and feelings to each other for a variety of reasons. I don't believe we have language in order to categorize things, but language helps us categorize things with ease.
Like I said, most disease differences have to do with sexual reproductive parts. Also differences in rates are due to gender differences, as in people leaning towards the masculine side will usually have higher rates of stomach cancers, lung cancers, strokes, etc due to behaviors, that are due to them following their gender. It is not inherent to their sex.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
The reason we have a language is for easily conveying thoughts and feelings to each other for a variety of reasons. I don't believe we have language in order to categorize things, but language helps us categorize things with ease.
Yeah, and how are we able to communicate thoughts? By categorising things! If everyone made monkey noises, how am I supposed to know what you want to say? Only by placing things into categories am I able to tell whether you want me to hand you a pencil or a rubber, or whether you are talking about a man or woman.

Like I said, most disease differences have to do with sexual reproductive parts. Also differences in rates are due to gender differences, as in people leaning towards the masculine side will usually have higher rates of stomach cancers, lung cancers, strokes, etc due to behaviors, that are due to them following their gender. It is not inherent to their sex.
???

I'm not talking about differences in the prevalence of diseases. That doesn't matter, because once someone with stomach cancer gets into a hospital, no one cares about your gender. You get the same treatment whether you like football or play with dolls.

BUT your biological sex does. The symptoms of heart attack (not a reproductive part) for men and women are different, so if a doctor wants to save lives, he has to take into account whether the person is biologically male or female, not whether he identifies as such.

You realise that there are more differences in our bodies than just penises and vaginas, right?
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
and you've done enough research on intersex people and transgender people to know what their heart attack symptoms are..?
 

lemoncatpower

Cynical Optimist
Yeah, and how are we able to communicate thoughts? By categorising things! If everyone made monkey noises, how am I supposed to know what you want to say? Only by placing things into categories am I able to tell whether you want me to hand you a pencil or a rubber, or whether you are talking about a man or woman.


???

I'm not talking about differences in the prevalence of diseases. That doesn't matter, because once someone with stomach cancer gets into a hospital, no one cares about your gender. You get the same treatment whether you like football or play with dolls.

BUT your biological sex does. The symptoms of heart attack (not a reproductive part) for men and women are different, so if a doctor wants to save lives, he has to take into account whether the person is biologically male or female, not whether he identifies as such.

You realise that there are more differences in our bodies than just penises and vaginas, right?

the symptoms are not different. Men and woman get the same symptoms, but woman are "somewhat more likely" to have some symptoms than men. Again this could be entirely due to lifestyle choices, they don't know as far as I can tell.

https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/heartattack/signs


And your claim about language is just silly. We can categorize things without speech? Idk what else to say to that really. Language goes beyond words. Yes categorizing things is important.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/language-in-the-mind/201412/what-do-we-use-language
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/06/why-humans-speak-language-origins/396635/
 
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snorlax512

Well-Known Member
I'm just saying its not primitive to distinguish between biological sex, because it has utility in both language and medicine. Not sure what transgender or intersex people have to do with this lol.

But to answer your question: the differences in symptoms are due to physical differences in the anatomy, as opposed to psychological differences. So a transgender people would probably have symptoms similar to their biological sex.

As for intersex people, depends on which type.

the symptoms are not different. Men and woman get the same symptoms, but woman are "somewhat more likely" to have some symptoms than men. Again this could be entirely due to lifestyle choices, they don't know as far as I can tell.

https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/heartattack/signs
I can't tell if you're serious or not. Are you really denying that there are physical differences in the anatomy between men and women?

And your claim about language is just silly. We can categorize things without speech? Idk what else to say to that really. Language goes beyond words. Yes categorizing things is important.
Who said anything about speech? You can draw the symbols for men and women and I couldn't care less.

Language is used to communicate specific ideas. These ideas cannot be specific if we do not have a way to distinguish between different things (i.e. categorizing them)!
 
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GhostAnime

Searching for her...
So a transgender people would probably have symptoms similar to their biological sex.

which is what their new sex is.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what transitioning is for? To become physically how you feel? And that's a process that's only going to improve over time.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
I don't think you understand. The difference in symptoms come from the physical anatomy.

yes, there are transgender people who also possess new physical anatomy.

i'm no expert on this though (i'd much rather prefer others speak on this) but I'm merely saying it's not so cut and dry as you're making it.
 

Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what transitioning is for? To become physically how you feel? And that's a process that's only going to improve over time.
Some trans people don't transition the whole way. They might not want to mess with their sex organs.

yes, there are transgender people who also possess new physical anatomy.

i'm no expert on this though (i'd much rather prefer others speak on this) but I'm merely saying it's not so cut and dry as you're making it.
Are you seriously saying that there's no anatomical difference between a cis male and a trans male?
 
I'm just saying its not primitive to distinguish between biological sex, because it has utility in both language and medicine. Not sure what transgender or intersex people have to do with this lol.

But to answer your question: the differences in symptoms are due to physical differences in the anatomy, as opposed to psychological differences. So a transgender people would probably have symptoms similar to their biological sex.

As for intersex people, depends on which type.


I can't tell if you're serious or not. Are you really denying that there are physical differences in the anatomy between men and women?


Who said anything about speech? You can draw the symbols for men and women and I couldn't care less.

Language is used to communicate specific ideas. These ideas cannot be specific if we do not have a way to distinguish between different things (i.e. categorizing them)!

The interesting thing to note here is that just because a categorization is useful doesn't mean it's something that concretely exists. To buttress what GA was saying, even biological sex is a social construct to some extent.

I'll quote from this article and skip straight to the most relevant point of conversation, but the whole piece is pretty informative reading.

https://www.autostraddle.com/its-ti...cal-sex-to-defend-their-transmisogyny-240284/

Since “biological sex” is actually a social construct, those who say that it is not often have to argue about what it entails. Some say it’s based on chromosomes (of which there are many*non-XX/XY combinations, as well as diversity among people with XY chromosomes), others say it’s genitals or gonads (either at birth or at the moment you’re talking about), others say it’s hormone levels (which vary widely and can be manipulated), still others say it’s secondary sex characteristics like the appearance of breasts, body hair and muscle mass (which vary even more). Some say that it’s a combination of all of them. Now, this creates a huge problem, as sex organs, secondary sex characteristics and hormone levels aren’t anywhere close to being universal to all men or women, males or females.

I don't think anyone intends to argue that the labels male and female aren't useful, but where your presentation, in my opinion, begins to falter is when you implied that sex is something immutable and concrete whereas gender is not. It's a phenomena that needs to be taken seriously. It's hard to know to what extent gender is influenced by biology or culture, mostly one or the other, or somewhere in the middle. Simply because we don't know absolutely everything about something yet doesn't mean it should be written off.

I can see how someone could have questions or confusion about gender within the parameters I just mentioned but I don't understand why it's being framed by some people as some sort of politically correct fad that other genders might exist other than man and woman. It's dismissive and ignorant of the conversation that's actually being had.

Edit:

I forgot to ask. If, by what you said, something being useful is the prerequisite in order to be deserving of existence, or at the least categorization, why isn't recognizing multiple genders useful?
 
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chess-z

campy vampire
Are you seriously saying that there's no anatomical difference between a cis male and a trans male?

Hi, trans person here. No need to be hypothetical about this. Yes there are trans people who don't "fully transition". Also, you're jumping to conclusions. GhostAnime said that trans people have a new physical anatomy. Where'd you cross the wires?
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
The interesting thing to note here is that just because a categorization is useful doesn't mean it's something that concretely exists. To buttress what GA was saying, even biological sex is a social construct to some extent.

I'll quote from this article and skip straight to the most relevant point of conversation, but the whole piece is pretty informative reading.

https://www.autostraddle.com/its-ti...cal-sex-to-defend-their-transmisogyny-240284/
The test I use to see if is a social construct or not:
1. Would it have existed without society?
2. If we were to roll back time, could it have been constructed differently?

Money is a social construct, because it's contingent on the existence of society; it does not have any value without it. If we were to roll back time, we could have decided that toilet paper was the currency if we wanted.

Now, biological sex. Our evolution into a sexually dimorphic species does not depend on existence of society. Whether the concept of 'sex' is created or not, the mechanism by which we propagate, which is the fusion of two distinct gametes from opposite sexes, will continue to manifest regardless.

Could it have been constructed differently? Maybe a slight variant, but it's even hard to imagine. Here, we have two categories with a set of insanely correlated traits: the combination of gametes x gonads x hormones x reproductive organs x physical anatomy x secondary sexual characteristics happens to hold true for about 99% of humans. Is this just some meaningless category that we decided to place them in? I don't think so.

Also, the existence of intersex people does not disprove anything. Biology is riddled with errors, and unless your claim is that everything is a social construct (even the fundamental laws of physics were different before the big bang), I don't think its fair to say biological sex is.

I don't think anyone intends to argue that the labels male and female aren't useful, but where your presentation, in my opinion, begins to falter is when you implied that sex is something immutable and concrete whereas gender is not. It's a phenomena that needs to be taken seriously. It's hard to know to what extent gender is influenced by biology or culture, mostly one or the other, or somewhere in the middle. Simply because we don't know absolutely everything about something yet doesn't mean it should be written off.
lemoncatpower said it was primitive, but whatever. FYI I don't think gender is a social construct either.

I have reasons to believe it's mostly biological (see the experiment of David Reimer). For a little extra detail, Reimer committed suicide at age 38.

I can see how someone could have questions or confusion about gender within the parameters I just mentioned but I don't understand why it's being framed by some people as some sort of politically correct fad that other genders might exist other than man and woman. It's dismissive and ignorant of the conversation that's actually being had.

Edit:

I forgot to ask. If, by what you said, something being useful is the prerequisite in order to be deserving of existence, or at the least categorization, why isn't recognizing multiple genders useful?
I have no problem with genders that are not male or female. It becomes a 'politically correct fad' when people try to say biological sex is a social construct to suit their agenda.

However, I do have a problem with people thinking that gender = personality, and that if you don't like to play football and drink beer you must be non-binary. Dysphoria is a real condition, so I don't like the people who claim to be genders that 'change depending on the weather' or something. That's bollocks.
 
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Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
We all exist, and 3rd/Non-binary Genders exist.

But to get back to the definition of racism...

Racism and/or bigotry: Do the components of these evolve as their own social constructs while racism and bigotry maintain that status, or, since race, religion/atheism, politics, ethnicity and gender being biological-social construct hybrids, did racism and bigotry always coexist with such and thus are they ingrained enough to escape the construct format due to them being an automatic human response to social constructs?
 

Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
Hi, trans person here. No need to be hypothetical about this. Yes there are trans people who don't "fully transition". Also, you're jumping to conclusions. GhostAnime said that trans people have a new physical anatomy. Where'd you cross the wires?

I wasn't jumping to conclusions. I was asking him to clarify his post. Looking back, I think he meant that transitioned trans people are their own sex, separate from cis men and cis women.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
well, I don't exactly have the experience or knowledge to say what they do or don't go through but I know it's not cut and dry.

I've read that many don't fully go through transition and some that do... it really depends on who you're talking to, but again, I'm not the person who should say much more than that. I just know snorlax's heart attack symptom explanation isn't so automatic as "transgendered people will likely show symptoms of what their birth sex was."
 
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