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Prejudice Plus Power and Racism and Sexism

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by U.N. Owen, Apr 21, 2017.

  1. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    Only because the GOP is going heavily in the anti-education route right now. College is where you find out who you are and have to challenge your views, and the GOP just want people to fall in line.

    Also for the last few posts a few of those "X percent of people will be not white in Y European country" studies have started to put thinks like Irish and Polish as a not-white ethnicity, but that's because the stats don't sound as scary to xenophobic people otherwise.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUbxVfSqtt8

    Here's a good, if long video on it.
     
  2. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

    Maybe I shouldn't have made black people the victim in my example. Let's say a black person hates Chinese immigrants. You wouldn't say that's racism, but you're defining racism around white people. That's quite problematic. I would just say it's regular racism, and when white people do it, it's powered racism or institutional racism. That way there can actually be a word for discrimination based on race.

    You can't prove my specious and engender statements wrong. It's impossible.
     
  3. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    You're wrong. It's incredibly easy to find. Anti-Semitism is not only overtly sanctioned but actively pushed in many countries across the world. Black people in America undeniably suffer extensively at the hands of lingering attitudes ensconced by slavery and segregation laws abolished in the 20th century.

    Meanwhile, Arab children are told Jews are apes in their school textbooks. Meanwhile, Holocaust denial cartoon competitions are hosted by the Iranian government. Meanwhile, state newspapers publish the medieval blood libel. Meanwhile, unfavourable public opinions of Jews sit as high as 97% in some states. Meanwhile, Wonder Woman gets banned because the lead is is Jewish. This stuff is not only institutional but active state policy.

    Academia is objectively very left-wing - the stats bear it out. However, I'm fairly confident that the majority of academics are intelligent and conscientious enough to counteract their own biases and provide an intellectually varied, non-judgemental learning environment. Some colleges have clearly become breeding grounds for regressive leftism, but it's certainly not a brush to tar all or even most establishments with.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  4. You're still going on about this trump card of yours? People are ignoring you because it's a strawman, Scammel. The prejudice + power definition does not forbid white ethnic groups from experiencing racism, it forbids minorities from being racist. If it was black people that ran Germany and started the holocaust, then maybe you'd have something here. To have the argument that you think you have, you'll need to show us instances of minority ethnic groups that have the power to oppress majority ethnic groups.

    GhostAnime's point regarding Jews, Irishmen, etc. better being able to hide their origin therefore still containing white privilege is still poignant.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  5. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

    Which is ridiculous. If white people can be racist against white people, black people should be able to be racist against black people.
     
  6. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    It's a direct contradiction to daft statements like 'My only point to you was that white people (or people with white skin) do not suffer prejudice in the same way people of colour do'. It's demonstrably untrue.

    Now, if the argument were to be that this is solely the American experience of racism, sure - it makes sense to discuss American institutional racism with the unspoken understanding that we're mostly talking about prejudice against black people. But it's a mistake to frame the overall human experience of racism in that one specific context.

    Again, the anti-Semitism example is a great counterpoint, because Muslim minorities commit the greatest proportion of hate crimes against Jews in some European countries.
     
  7. They don't. It is demonstrably true.

    Someone who is white can often hide their origins and who they are - whether they're Jewish, Irish, homosexual, whatever. We're not saying other groups don't suffer, they do. Black people tend to suffer more, though, because they can't help but present as black short of bleaching their skin. That is privilege that should be acknowledged.

    This would also go back to my earlier point as well that acts such as these still have the same emotional gravitas under prejudice, using racism which has connotations of power isn't necessary to describe minority on minority hate crime. But you know, 'round and 'round the circle I guess.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  8. GhostAnime

    GhostAnime Searching for her...

    Yaga covered everything perfectly the past few days


    The problem is that when the Irish, etc experienced discrimination (which was like, centuries ago), they weren't considered "white". the problem is with the context of the word "white" which has changed throughout history. Today, most of these cultures have pretty much assimilated with whiteness enough for them to pass as most things.

    I can't speak for Jewish people but for the most part in the western world, they still mostly benefit from white-passing privilege at least. I don't know if you can call oppression against current day Jews racism in our world. Perhaps in the worlds Scammel was describing if they are easily visible, traceable, and it is directly systematic to their experiences.

    .... But when we consider the greater total of the world has mostly been under euro colonization and we know universally (even in countries that have darker skin on average), light skin is seen as more beneficial, it's hard to insert Jews as a significant part of how we define racism in most countries. I think what's important is the historical significance of European exploration that was done across the world.

    Ehh, I guess that is logically consistent enough but what do you mean by "Quite problematic"?

    .. The dictionary is still not the sole source of objective information on communication.

    As easily as words change in history and as much of a mixed bag the English language is, it really wouldn't surprise me if it were impossible anyway.
     
  9. chess-z

    chess-z campy vampire

    Bringing this back cause we're still hung up on dictionaries for some reason.
     
  10. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

    I agree with Baba Yaga that it is true. We are talking solely about America. We're not talking about how albinos in Africa are discriminated against, which was actually brought up by some idiot who wasn't happy about my university getting a Black Student Center.

    Are you denying (or at least minimizing) antisemitism in America?

    I meant quite problematic because it's giving a word the definition of its subset. It's like if I said that a rectangles need to have four equal sides to be rectangles.

    This reminds me of when I was telling someone that there was a guest on the Colbert Report who said there's a study that birth order can affect homosexuality in male children. She responded with, "Well, Colbert is a straight white man, whose experiences with the world are different. We can't take his word too seriously."
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  11. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    Your very own source, again: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...alians-jews-and-so-on/?utm_term=.0140e279ff46

    It's not racism if you have to live in fear of ever having your identity discovered, if it's possible to hide at all. It's not racism if society at large thinks you are literally an animal, as long as you keep lying. It's not racism if you're forced to disavow your own culture for fear of vandalism or worse. Just don't wear Jewish clothes, guys.

    Honestly asking now - what do you actually know about the history of Jew hatred? Like, do you know what the word pogrom means? Do you know what the Quran has to say about Jews? Do you know what the blood libel is? You said you've never seen visual anti-Semitic tropes, so I assume the name Kristalnacht or perhaps Bergen-Belsen mean little to you?

    I mean, you're attempting to redefine racism so that it entirely revolves around skin colour, but you've evidenced a shocking, borderline offensive ignorance of one of the worst forms of racism in the history of mankind.
     
  12. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

    I guess homophobia also doesn't exist, because gay people can just hide that they're gay.
     
  13. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    I mean up until the 90's it was very common for gay people to hide it from everyone, including close family and friends. You did have black people in the 1800's pass themselves off as white if they were able to convincingly do it, but that required a ton of "lucky" factors lining up.
     
  14. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

    "How can sexism exist when woman just pretend to be men?"
     
  15. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    Are there a significant amount of women who pretend to be men to avoid discrimination and sexism?
     
  16. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

    Maybe there should be.
     
  17. GhostAnime

    GhostAnime Searching for her...

    I am saying in present day in North America that it is not equivalent to the racism people of color face.

    The sources only direct research stems from the 20th century.

    When you're talking about 1800s and early 20th century, they were not considered white. In other words, you're not really telling me anything I hadn't already said: the definition of whiteness changed at some point. The earlier you go, the more it was defined by status and how close to England you were. Many books quote this from people during those times https://theundefeated.com/features/white-immigrants-werent-always-considered-white-and-acceptable/


    The hell are you guys talking about? Sadib, we're talking about racism. Jews being considered a race is actually a debated topic. It doesn't take anything away from their oppression; merely what we classify them as.

    How we define race is mostly visual. If you can hide your race, why classify it as racism? Racism as a system works only through visual contact.

    I don't even know what you two are debating anymore at this point. Fear of being discovered? Society thinks you're an animal? I would kill to be an identity I could ****ing hide. Are you kidding me?

    If this is a debate about whether Jews should be considered a race, I'm not having it; but I will say this much: it is not comparable to racism for people of color. That is the only thing I will continue saying.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  18. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

    White privilege is the assumption that white people can't empathize the hardships of people of color. There should be a phrase for the type of privilege non-Jewish people have.
    Here's are some articles that might be useful:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism#United_States
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_United_States#Hate_crimes_against_Jews_in_the_U.S.

    This topic is also about sexism. Women can disguise themselves as men. I've met quite a few androgynous women.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  19. chess-z

    chess-z campy vampire

    Worth considering: exceptions don't disprove the rule.
     
  20. GhostAnime

    GhostAnime Searching for her...

    but the privilege is based on having white skin. "jew" isn't necessarily synonymous with white (although arguably most Jews are white-passing, it's still not technically synonymous)

    the problem with creating such a phrase is that Jew is a category outside of skin color.

    anyway we already kinda have a phrase/category specifically for the oppression of Jews. You linked us to it, but are you still trying to saying their oppression is comparable to poc at least in North America? I'm still not sure what you're arguing.
     

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