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Prejudice Plus Power and Racism and Sexism

Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
but the privilege is based on having white skin. "jew" isn't necessarily synonymous with white (although arguably most Jews are white-passing, it's still not technically synonymous)

the problem with creating such a phrase is that Jew is a category outside of skin color.

anyway we already kinda have a phrase/category specifically for the oppression of Jews. You linked us to it, but are you still trying to saying their oppression is comparable to poc at least in North America? I'm still not sure what you're arguing.
You think racism is only about color? That's colorism. I don't know if Jews suffer antisemitism to the same capacity that poc suffer racist, but so what? Why are you trying to minimize suffering? That's exactly what you're doing with these redefinitions.
 

Bananarama

The light is coming
You think racism is only about color? That's colorism. I don't know if Jews suffer antisemitism to the same capacity that poc suffer racist, but so what? Why are you trying to minimize suffering? That's exactly what you're doing with these redefinitions.
Jewish people don't have to deal with the baggage and negative stigma and stereotypes that society pushes onto them based on their identities. Jews are one of the most well-liked religious groups in America.

http://www.pewforum.org/2017/02/15/...singly-warm-feelings-toward-religious-groups/

The Jewish American experience is practically alien to the African American experience. Stop conflating them.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
You think racism is only about color? That's colorism.
Actually, colorism is more about shade and it's based on skin color only. There is colorism even within poc for example.


I don't know if Jews suffer antisemitism to the same capacity that poc suffer racist, but so what? Why are you trying to minimize suffering? That's exactly what you're doing with these redefinitions.
But it's not even clear if Jews are considered a race. Your original statement was that white privilege needs to be done away with because there are white people who are oppressed; but that doesn't remove the fact that they are also privileged for having white skin.

White women are oppressed by white men but still have white privilege. Same with white-passing Jews.

It's hard to truly classify Jews as a race because there really isn't a specific "Jew" look, and a lot of what they go through isn't systematic in the sense of poc who normally go through racism in multiple ways (schools, police, media...). Jews, at least in America, are actually associated with wealth.

It's just.. a very complex category. It never really "fits" with anything. It's simply its own classification and system of oppression. Of course, this is my view, and an actual Jewish person may feel different (do we have anyone here?), but it's not universally agreed that Jews are considered a race.
 

windwakemeup

Bee Prince
I think the term y'all are looking for is anti-semitism, so can you all stop arguing to put it under 'racism' when we... already have a specific term for it that works well?

Also, if you think that hatred against the jewish population has died, then you haven't been keeping any of your eyes open or actually listening to the jewish community (or hell, watching news lately!)

I mean I don't agree with a lot of the altright-leaning **** in this thread (snorlax your arguments make my brain hurt, bro, please get out of that echo chamber you clearly sequester yourself in) but damn, if you think anti-semitism doesn't exist in america you are a blind as a bat, or purposefully ignoring it because it's inconvenient to you.
 

Mordent99

Banned
To be fair, GhostAnime sort of denied antisemitism to an extent.
So he's a Holocaust Denier then, just like David Duke.
 

Scammel

Well-Known Member
So he's a Holocaust Denier then, just like David Duke.
No. GhostAnime has demonstrated a worrying, apparently genuine ignorance of anti-Semitism that I am happy to excoriate them for (and have done so), but there's not a trace of Holocaust denial. You're just so trigger-happy you're chomping at the bit to sling around comparisons to KKK members without checking a thing.
 

Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
No. GhostAnime has demonstrated a worrying, apparently genuine ignorance of anti-Semitism that I am happy to excoriate them for (and have done so), but there's not a trace of Holocaust denial. You're just so trigger-happy you're chomping at the bit to sling around comparisons to KKK members without checking a thing.
I'm glad someone can give a good lecture on antisemitism, because that's where this topic ended before. If GhostAnime ever returns, he'll probably say that Jewish people have it way easier than black people, so you should reply to that.
 

bobjr

EVERYONE WANTS THE BIG CHAIR MEG
Staff member
Moderator
I'd argue that as of right now Jewish people in America have it better than Black People, but there are worrying situations for both of them, and I'm not fond of going "Well X is bad but Y is worse so we should focus on this only", and instead just cover it in a general "This is bad no matter what" thing.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
I'm not even going to entertain a response to my thoughts on anti-semitism. I made my points pretty clear and folks who have questions can read if they like.
 

Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
I'm not even going to entertain a response to my thoughts on anti-semitism. I made my points pretty clear and folks who have questions can read if they like.
This post?
But it's not even clear if Jews are considered a race. Your original statement was that white privilege needs to be done away with because there are white people who are oppressed; but that doesn't remove the fact that they are also privileged for having white skin.

White women are oppressed by white men but still have white privilege. Same with white-passing Jews.

It's hard to truly classify Jews as a race because there really isn't a specific "Jew" look, and a lot of what they go through isn't systematic in the sense of poc who normally go through racism in multiple ways (schools, police, media...). Jews, at least in America, are actually associated with wealth.

It's just.. a very complex category. It never really "fits" with anything. It's simply its own classification and system of oppression. Of course, this is my view, and an actual Jewish person may feel different (do we have anyone here?), but it's not universally agreed that Jews are considered a race.
 

PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
There has been a lot of talk about how to define racism, one of which is the power argument. Is this a valid definition? Why? How does this affect views of racism/sexism across the board? Is this a mere excuse to be racist and sexist? How does this work at the individual level?
While racism exists all over the world, American racism is unique in that is had been (and in some cases, still is) a major driving force in the nation's economic, political, and social sustenance for centuries. Racism remains a strong systematically structured construct within American life, and in order for non-POC to truly understand the impact of racism, they must first understand that.

As a Black American man myself, living in the 21st century, I cannot count on my fingers the amount of times I've had to deal with racism and racist people, but the hardest part for me isn't the actual endeavors - I know they will always come. The hardest part is dealing with the people who insist I am lying. I am more ticked off at them than the actual perpetrators. However, I'd like to answer the questions above individually to offer my perspective on the matter.

Is this a valid definition??
Literally, no, but the power argument, also known as Prejudice via Institutional Power, is the source of American racism, and remains the biggest contributor. It is easiest for those in power to exhibit prejudice of all kinds, including racism.

Because racism in its most basic form is "mistreatment of others due to their racial background." However, as we all know, it goes much deeper than that, especially in the United States.

How does this affect views of racism/sexism across the board?
It doesn't. It simply explains the gravity of the situation. Both racism and sexism have been heavily systematic throughout American history, and the power of wealthy white men was and continues to be the greatest driving force, but there also comes the fellow citizens who also exhibit great prejudice. The power argument does not fly here.

Is this a mere excuse to be racist and sexist?
No. It's an excuse to ignore racism and sexism.

How does this work at the individual level?
For the one suffering, all they can do is tell their story and hope others listen. For the ones who aren't in those groups, their job is to listen. Take in the stories told by the suffering and learn from them. We cannot solve either issue if we refuse to actually hear and heed the voices of those crying out for justice.
 

Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
It's hard to believe that it was less than a year ago that I posted in this topic. I see we still didn't get a Jewish perspective on this matter. The "power component" is just a way to trivialize racism and sexism.
 

EnglishALT

Well-Known Member
It's hard to believe that it was less than a year ago that I posted in this topic. I see we still didn't get a Jewish perspective on this matter. The "power component" is just a way to trivialize racism and sexism.
This whole thing seems to reek of America-centric views. I live in Japan, I cannot vote, I cannot get a credit card, I have to pay several times higher than the average price for rent, I cannot rent a car or an apartment for that matter with out a Japanese company or citizen guaranteeing me. I have no power, does that mean that I can be as racist as I wish and not be considered racist? In the news recently South Africa passed a bill in which the government could take away the land of white farmers with out compensation, do whites in South Africa have the ability to be racist to blacks with out being called racist as well? The answer of course is no.

Trying to change the definition of racism, takes away from the power of the word and stigma attached to it.
 
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chess-z

campy vampire
This whole thing seems to reek of America-centric views. I live in Japan, I cannot vote, I cannot get a credit card, I have to pay several times higher than the average price for rent, I cannot rent a car or an apartment for that matter with out a Japanese company or citizen guaranteeing me. I have no power, does that mean that I can be as racist as I wish and not be considered racist? In the news recently South Africa passed a bill in which the government could take away the land of white farmers with out compensation, do whites in South Africa have the ability to be racist to blacks with out being called racist as well? The answer of course is no.

Trying to change the definition of racism, takes away from the power of the word and stigma attached to it.
AHA! I've got you, you're being american centric, it's not like you literally said it in your post that this was about american racism, by framing the discussion in this way, I can score easy ideological goals! I am a very intelligent debater.

do me a favor and google apartheid
 

EnglishALT

Well-Known Member
AHA! I've got you, you're being american centric, it's not like you literally said it in your post that this was about american racism, by framing the discussion in this way, I can score easy ideological goals! I am a very intelligent debater.

do me a favor and google apartheid
I am very well aware of apartheid, however do you honestly believe a form of "reverse apartheid" in the taking of land with out compensation or recourse, almost 30 years later is now okay? They lack power, but if we are going by the new definition of racism, they are free to act in such a racist manner to not be classified as racist.
 

bobjr

EVERYONE WANTS THE BIG CHAIR MEG
Staff member
Moderator
Yes, what about the white people I always say in discussions about racism.

Seriously though you can call out specific aspects of a culture but going "Well what about the white man?" is hilariously tone deaf.
 

Scammel

Well-Known Member
Yes, what about the white people I always say in discussions about racism.
Your very first contribution in the thread discusses white people?

Let's be honest with ourselves, the ultimate crux of this debate was always 'You can be racist to white people' vs 'You can't be racist to white people'. I'm pretty sure no one was arguing that racism isn't bad or that certain groups don't suffer from it disproportionately.
 

EnglishALT

Well-Known Member
Yes, what about the white people I always say in discussions about racism.

Seriously though you can call out specific aspects of a culture but going "Well what about the white man?" is hilariously tone deaf.
Considering this debate’s topic is structured in if minorities can actually be racist to white people, it is worth discussing different areas of the world where the power balance between whites and blacks or whites and Asians or whites and * insert race here * are flipped. To not examine that when discussing the power/privilege = racism argument, would mean the goal of this thread would just be to trash white people and not have an actual discussion on the definition of racism.
 
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