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Pride discourse.

PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
So which is it? Is kink and sex apart of the gay community and a huge factor in homosexuality/queerness OR are we more than just sexual deviants and just like anybody else and being gay isn’t all about sex because you can’t have both. No I do not think kink is at the center of queerness. Straight people don’t center their sexuality around their kinks and sexual interests. And then on top of that where does that leave our asexual counterparts? This alienates people with no/low sex drives who probably have no particular interest. Another user claims that seeing kinky LGBT sex is somehow going to make people realize they’re gay? I’m not sure about the rest but it didn’t think watching grown adults having sex for me to realize anything and furthermore even if kink is sexually liberating to LGBTQ+ people why is can’t it be sexually liberating to them as a person? Why must it be the core focus because it liberates SOME people? Not all gay people are the same.

Well that's deeply offensive. lol

You're right, not all gay people are the same, so don't berate other gay people for not being like you. Let them be gay in their way, and you be gay in yours. No one is hurting anyone.

NOTE: Before you or anyone else tries the "it sends a bad message" bit, anti-gay/queer people hate us regardless of what we do. They hated all of us before they even heard about kink, and they will hate us long after. And even if they didn't, I refuse to live my life according to someone else's ideals, especially the ideals of those who'd rather I didn't exist.
 
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Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
It's kind of frustrating reading some of the replies to this thread and people conflating kinks at pride with full on sexual intercourse.
There are other replies that make it out like kinks will utterly ruin your kids mind.

To put it this way, I've seen some things as a kid that were beyond my league. For example, there was that scene in the Godfather where a couple are shot in their own bed that I saw as a kid. Heck, one time, when I was about 10-12, I watch this god awful movie with this one scene of this guy dressed as an indigenous tribesman filming himself having sex with someone and making people believe there was a native custom going on. Point is, we move pass it and eventually grow up.

Also imagine those kids playing Animal Crossing eventually coming across the Statue of David, lol!
 

Zora

perpetually tired
I think this article makes a compelling case for why kink shouldn't be included at Pride events. There are a few flaws in the author's argument (he doesn't acknowledge the fact that kink is an identity for some people, nor the fact that people in the kink community can experience discrimination) but overall, the points he makes resonate with me. I think these two paragraphs are especially important:
Skylar Jordan-Baker is a TERF.


Screenshot because he deleted OG tweet, but his entire TERF manifesto is still out there (I'd rather not link it). And the fact he's a TERF matters, because this is exactly how the "no kink at pride" discourse will evolve: "Kink doesn't belong at pride-->trans women aren't women they're men with a kink-->trans folks do not belong at pride." The article you're quoting is laying the bedrock for transphobia in LGBTQIA+ spaces.

----------------------------------
Another user claims that seeing kinky LGBT sex is somehow going to make people realize they’re gay? I’m not sure about the rest but it didn’t think watching grown adults having sex for me to realize anything and furthermore even if kink is sexually liberating to LGBTQ+ people why is can’t it be sexually liberating to them as a person? Why must it be the core focus because it liberates SOME people? Not all gay people are the same.

That someone is me, and that's honestly a poor paraphrasing of what I've said. The basic point I made is this: if someone immersed themselves into leather culture and only realized they were gay within that context, you can't expect them to express their inner gay and leave "leather" at the door.
 

Bill the Typhlosion

Well-Known Member
What of LGBT+ people who are kinky but do not wish to get married? Does your definition of LGBT liberation really apply to them if their goal in life is to live with kink openly rather than be married? It's more a question of "Are we really liberated if we have to start censoring ourselves because the larger audience is uncomfortable?"

I suppose I was over-generalising a bit there. Of course not everyone wants to get married. The point I was trying to make is that Pride is partly about making LGBTQ+ people visible in society, and same sex marriage is an example of a visible thing some LGBTQ+ people do. Other examples include holding hands with, and kissing, people of the same sex, or living proudly as a trans or non-binary person. These are the kinds of things we want to put on display at a Pride event. Things which LGBTQ+ people can be seen doing in society on a day-to-day basis.

Skylar Jordan-Baker is a TERF.

I didn't realise that. How disappointing. :( He has no business writing about LGBTQ+ issues if he doesn't accept trans people.

There are non-transphobic people who hold similar views to those expressed in his article, however. And the idea that these views could somehow lead to transphobia is absurd. Trans people will always be welcome at Pride because 1) being trans isn't a kink, 2) the presence of trans people in public spaces causes no harm whatsoever to anyone and 3) they're literally part of the LGBTQ+ acronym. If you don't accept trans people, you don't accept the LGBTQ+ community.
 
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PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
I really detest when people argue the incontrovertible, especially when it concerns the well being of others, so I'm just going to be frank:

Kink is part of the LGBTQ+ community, regardless of anyone's view on kink culture. It has been part of the community for several decades and will continue to be. Nothing will ever change that. To insist it doesn't belong at or in Pride contradicts the whole point of Pride to begin with.
 
"How disappointing"

It's more embarrassing than anything. If you're insisting that your foibles don't come from a place of prejudice, citing a known bigot to back you is pretty bad.

So which is it? Is kink and sex apart of the gay community and a huge factor in homosexuality/queerness OR are we more than just sexual deviants

This is a good example where I don't think you two are quite hearing yourselves. We won't even get into how much of an egregious false dichotomy or whatever this. Kink is a big aspect of the queer community, but just because something is part that community, doesn't mean that's all or the most important part of it. That is just a very bizarre framing. When you phrase the last question rhetorically like that it just comes off as bigoted and ugly, suggesting these base, animalistic, horny queers aren't part of OUR group.
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
"How disappointing"

It's more embarrassing than anything. If you're insisting that your foibles don't come from a place of prejudice, citing a known bigot to back you is pretty bad.

So which is it? Is kink and sex apart of the gay community and a huge factor in homosexuality/queerness OR are we more than just sexual deviants

This is a good example where I don't think you two are quite hearing yourselves. We won't even get into how much of an egregious false dichotomy or whatever this. Kink is a big aspect of the queer community, but just because something is part that community, doesn't mean that's all or the most important part of it. That is just a very bizarre framing. When you phrase the last question rhetorically like that it just comes off as bigoted and ugly, suggesting these base, animalistic, horny queers aren't part of OUR group.
This attitude of "PrIdE sHoUlD aSpIrE tO sOmEtHiNg GrEaTeR tHaN kInK" Is exactly what I warned about early in this thread.

Baba Yaga is right.

This is cheap high school clique behavior.

And it needs to stop.

Pride has been corporatized already(Corporations are bigoted by default due to their hoarding money and power structure, and this is their piss-poor way of saying they aren't). It doesn't need to become a memorial service and quasi-political rally, sanitized for photo shoots with political figures looking for a grifting opportunity.

If queerness celebrations in revolt should transcend anything, it's alignment/sides in general, apart from **** that isn't allowed or wanted anyway, despite what exists and happens on the internet.
 

The Admiral

the star of the masquerade
It's kind of frustrating reading some of the replies to this thread and people conflating kinks at pride with full on sexual intercourse.
There are other replies that make it out like kinks will utterly ruin your kids mind.
The trouble surrounding this subject -- or really anything involving LGBT/queer matters -- is that there are some people who legitimately do not want to learn and just want to inflict their opinions on people.
 

Bill the Typhlosion

Well-Known Member
It's more embarrassing than anything. If you're insisting that your foibles don't come from a place of prejudice, citing a known bigot to back you is pretty bad.

I'm not embarassed by someone else's bigotry. It's him that should be embarassed! Or perhaps the Independent, for leaving the article online so that well-meaning people can share and quote it, unaware of the problematic views held by its author.

Having an opinion isn't a foible. I would never describe wanting kink at Pride as a foible, because I respect other people's opinions. As you'll see in just a moment, I'm very open minded and always make an effort to try and understand alternative viewpoints.

I don't feel that I have much more to contribute to this topic - I've made all the points I wanted to make - but I wanted to leave you with these two YouTube videos by people who are for kink at Pride that I thought were interesting.

This first YouTuber talks about how drag queens used to be considered "too sexual" but have been accepted over time, suggesting that the same thing could be happening now for kink outfits. It's a very convincing argument and one that could actually change my mind on the whole thing, honestly. I'm not sure whether I agree with them about police officers not being welcome at Pride but that's a whole other debate!


And then there's this YouTuber, who is a kinkster herself albeit one who doesn't attend Pride. Her stance is that kink outfits at Pride are OK, but not what she calls "BDSM scenes". So it's OK to wear a pup mask and collar to a Pride march, but not to crawl around on the ground while your partner holds the leash, because there's a humiliation element to that which involves the public, and thus breaks their consent. (Warning: there's some swearing in this one.)


Now, what's interesting is that both of these people make similar suggestions about how to make Pride inclusive for everyone. Kat Blaque suggests having designated 18+ and all-ages spaces at Pride, and Luxander takes this a step further by suggesting that completely separate 18+ and all-ages events are organised.

Baba Yaga, you mentioned in your first post that most Pride events have family-friendly spaces already, and I think that's a great start. I'm with Luxander on this one, though - separate events would be better. An 18+ Pride on the Saturday, followed by an all-ages Pride on the Sunday or the following Saturday. That way, everyone can enjoy Pride to the fullest. I wouldn't even mind if the all-ages event was a bit smaller (funding is of course an issue) as long as it had its own parade.
 
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Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
The trouble surrounding this subject -- or really anything involving LGBT/queer matters -- is that there are some people who legitimately do not want to learn and just want to inflict their opinions on people.
If some Hispanic gay people wore Mexican luchador gear as a kink, people in this thread would probably still consider it sexual deviant and say it damages kids.
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
I'm not embarassed by someone else's bigotry. It's him that should be embarassed! Or perhaps the Independent, for leaving the article online so that well-meaning people can share and quote it, unaware of the problematic views held by its author.

Having an opinion isn't a foible. I would never describe wanting kink at Pride as a foible, because I respect other people's opinions. As you'll see in just a moment, I'm very open minded and always make an effort to try and understand alternative viewpoints.

I don't feel that I have much more to contribute to this topic - I've made all the points I wanted to make - but I wanted to leave you with these two YouTube videos by people who are for kink at Pride that I thought were interesting.

This first YouTuber talks about how drag queens used to be considered "too sexual" but have been accepted over time, suggesting that the same thing could be happening now for kink outfits. It's a very convincing argument and one that could actually change my mind on the whole thing, honestly. I'm not sure whether I agree with them about police officers not being welcome at Pride but that's a whole other debate!


And then there's this YouTuber, who is a kinkster herself albeit one who doesn't attend Pride. Her stance is that kink outfits at Pride are OK, but not what she calls "BDSM scenes". So it's OK to wear a pup mask and collar to a Pride march, but not to crawl around on the ground while your partner holds the leash, because there's a humiliation element to that which involves the public, and thus breaks their consent. (Warning: there's some swearing in this one.)


Now, what's interesting is that both of these people make similar suggestions about how to make Pride inclusive for everyone. Kat Blaque suggests having designated 18+ and all-ages spaces at Pride, and Luxander takes this a step further by suggesting that completely separate 18+ and all-ages events are organised.

Baba Yaga, you mentioned in your first post that most Pride events have family-friendly spaces already, and I think that's a great start. I'm with Luxander on this one, though - separate events would be better. An 18+ Pride on the Saturday, followed by an all-ages Pride on the Sunday or the following Saturday. That way, everyone can enjoy Pride to the fullest. I wouldn't even mind if the all-ages event was a bit smaller (funding is of course an issue) as long as it had its own parade.
They're still segregating people based on their willingness to submit to cishet privilege and power to avoid making them uncomfortable, which runs counter to ALL aspects of pride.

And you're trotting out Kat Blaque like she speaks for all black people.

She doesn't even speak for the kink communities she claims to.

And she's not the friendliest towards queer people, or even her fellow black people, historically.

Same types of issues apply to Luxander.

it almost appears like you looked for YouTubers of color and kink who happened to have high subscriber counts(Like that means anything) and agreed with you, with no further research.

Doesn't look good on your end.
 

Bill the Typhlosion

Well-Known Member
They're still segregating people based on their willingness to submit to cishet privilege and power to avoid making them uncomfortable, which runs counter to ALL aspects of pride.

And you're trotting out Kat Blaque like she speaks for all black people.

She doesn't even speak for the kink communities she claims to.

And she's not the friendliest towards queer people, or even her fellow black people, historically.

Same types of issues apply to Luxander.

it almost appears like you looked for YouTubers of color and kink who happened to have high subscriber counts(Like that means anything) and agreed with you, with no further research.

Doesn't look good on your end.

I don't know anything about these people, I just found their videos via YouTube search (subscriber count always plays a part, because more popular videos appear first) and thought they had some interesting things to say. I didn't perform a detailed background check on either of them and neither should I have to. Of course I'm interested in hearing the views of kinksters because I might be able to learn something from them, but it makes no difference whether they're black or not.

I actually don't agree with them for the most part. The only thing I agree with wholeheartedly is the splitting of Pride into 18+ and all-ages spaces. I shared these videos to show my willingness to be open-minded and actually listen to people who disagree with me, to broaden my understanding of the subject.

I won't be posting in this thread again because I'm clearly not welcome here. I don't think any of you actually want a debate, you just want everyone to agree with you, because anyone who doesn't is automatically a bigot. By all means quote this post and have the last word if you want, but I refuse to engage in such petty behaviour.
 
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Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Nobody says you can't debate here and nobody forbids you from doing so, you're being a bit petty and overdramatic over this. Just don't expect other people to agree with you when you essentially want Pride segregation because some folks have this weird conspiracy theory that displays of kink are traumatising for children (a viewpoint that has literally no foundation, nor have you provided one in your arguments, and is mostly similar to arguments that also want to keep gay or transgender representation away from children).
 

PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
I won't be posting in this thread again because I'm clearly not welcome here. I don't think any of you actually want a debate, you just want everyone to agree with you, because anyone who doesn't is automatically a bigot. By all means quote this post and have the last word if you want, but I refuse to engage in such petty behaviour.

There was nothing to debate, mate. That's the point.

You were simply incorrect in your thesis, and that's okay.
 

Bill the Typhlosion

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry about my outburst. I went back and edited out the last paragraph which I felt was needlessly scathing.

I'm not usually one to get into heated debates, and I'm not sure why I got so passionate about this particular topic. I think perhaps it struck a personal chord with me because I've been feeling quite isolated, like a lot of us have during the pandemic, and I'm struggling to find "my tribe". As a gay man I don't feel like I fit into cis hetero society, but sometimes I feel like I don't fit into the LGBTQ+ community either because there are some aspects that I can't really relate to.

I suppose you don't need to vibe with absolutely everything in a community in order to enjoy being a part of it. No two people in any community are exactly the same, we all have different tastes and different opinions. Those differences shouldn't be a reason for anyone not to take part.

It's for this reason that I decided to post here again, despite previously saying that I wouldn't. I felt that it would be petty of me to keep coming back to have "the last word", but actually, I think what would really be petty is if I stormed off in a huff and never came back, just because not everyone agreed with me. I would hate to leave things on a sour note.

I've actually found this thread quite educational, and my own opinions have shifted quite a bit as a result of reading what other people have to say here. I still feel strongly that engaging in public kink play (for example, by involving unwitting bystanders in an exhibitionism/humiliation scene) is a breach of consent, but I now understand that simply wearing kink outfits in public is not harmful in and of itself.

Kink outfits can be quite provocative and a little scary-looking. It's natural to be unnerved by that, if it's something you're not familiar with and don't understand. So I think education is key: people need to be taught that these outfits are harmless, and not something to be afraid of.

As for splitting Pride into separate events, maybe that is a bit drastic. Perhaps, as individuals, we all just need to find a Pride event that we vibe with. My nearest Pride is actually a very family-orientated event. I don't really know why I was getting so het up about what people are doing at other Prides which I might never even attend.

There was nothing to debate, mate. That's the point.

You were simply incorrect in your thesis, and that's okay.

With all due respect, I don't really understand what you mean here. There must be something to debate, otherwise there wouldn't be any Pride discourse and there wouldn't be a thread about it in the debate forum.

I think it's really important to have debates. Without them, us LGBTQ+ folk wouldn't have all of the rights and freedoms that we have today.
 
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Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
Pride got shut down by the cops near where I live due to a vehicle ramming attack threat on Pride events being sent to the local pigs.

This fight isn't over. Not by a longshot.
 

PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
With all due respect, I don't really understand what you mean here. There must be something to debate, otherwise there wouldn't be any Pride discourse and there wouldn't be a thread about it in the debate forum.

I think it's really important to have debates. Without them, us LGBTQ+ folk wouldn't have all of the rights and freedoms that we have today.

As I already stated, Kink is part of the LGBTQ+ community whether you like it or not, and nothing you say or do will ever change that.

There are no opinions about a fact, only incorrect statements. Thus, there was no debate. You were simply incorrect, and we were telling you that you were incorrect.
 

Teravolt

cilan lives forever in my heart
I’m reviving an old thread, but I wanted to see y’all’s thoughts on this.

As you may know, I’m bi. I‘ve been attracted to both guys and girls since I was 10, but I only came out to my family this year. As I’ve been learning about how to support myself and my fellow LGBTQ+ community members, I’ve been thinking about what it means to be bi in the community. I haven’t seen any content in the media about bisexuality, but I’ve seen plenty on gay people, trans people, and non-binary people. I have nothing against the other content, and I support it. I just feel like bi people don’t get much representation in the community. Am I being overly sensitive? Is there some truth to what I’m saying? Both? Tell me your thoughts.
 

Morax

King of heroes
As you may know, I’m bi. I‘ve been attracted to both guys and girls since I was 10, but I only came out to my family this year. As I’ve been learning about how to support myself and my fellow LGBTQ+ community members, I’ve been thinking about what it means to be bi in the community. I haven’t seen any content in the media about bisexuality, but I’ve seen plenty on gay people, trans people, and non-binary people. I have nothing against the other content, and I support it. I just feel like bi people don’t get much representation in the community. Am I being overly sensitive? Is there some truth to what I’m saying? Both? Tell me your thoughts
If it's any consolation, my pfp, Mr. 2 Bon Clay is a queer and he's one of the most popular characters in One Piece. It's not like they don't get any representation but that many writers just don't know how to use them and decide not to take the risk. Hisoka from Hunter x Hunter is another successful LGBTQ+ character.
 

Teravolt

cilan lives forever in my heart
If it's any consolation, my pfp, Mr. 2 Bon Clay is a queer and he's one of the most popular characters in One Piece. It's not like they don't get any representation but that many writers just don't know how to use them and decide not to take the risk. Hisoka from Hunter x Hunter is another successful LGBTQ+ character.
I see that. I’m mainly talking in terms of real-life media, like news article and podcast sits of things, though. Sadly, when the community is represented in fictional media, it’s for tokenism (WOWEE LOOK AT HOW I N C L U S I V E WE ARE) and characters don’t have much development apart from their sexuality and gender identity. Which sucks.
 
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