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Pride discourse.

Bill the Typhlosion

Well-Known Member
Kink within the queer community is not the same as kink outside of it. In fact, my straight friends don't even refer to it as kink, but rather 'fetish' or an umbrella 'BDSM.'

There is a long-standing cultural tie to kink within the queer community, and it is incredibly important, at least to me, to ensure this part of queer history is acknowledged. Thus, it cannot be separated from LGBTQ+.

Would you say that a larger percentage of LGBTQ+ people are into kink, compared to straight people? Or is it just that the LGBTQ+ who are into kink have a different relationship with it than straight people do? Maybe there's an aspect to all of this that I'm not understanding - this community is, after all, a lot older than I am.

For me, I think what it really all boils down to is this: I don't like it when Pride perpetuates the misconception that LGBTQ+ people, especially gay men like myself, are all obsessed with sex. I said earlier that there's no harm in being "a little bit sexy" at Pride and I stand by that, but I worry that it could send a bad message to the public if it goes too far. This applies to all kinds of sex, but I find kink at Pride especially problematic because it's a lot more conspicuous, and thus far more likely to have a negative impact on the public's perception of our community.

If kink is intrinsic to the LGBTQ+ community, there are far more appropriate places to acknowledge the relationship between the two - for example on Grindr, in dedicated social groups, and in 18+ sex clubs. We can discuss and enjoy sex and kink amongst ourselves as much as we wish. But at Pride, a public event, do we really need to put our sex lives on display for the whole world to see?

I'm not for a moment suggesting that kinky LGBTQ+ people aren't welcome at Pride. I'm simply suggesting that, while at Pride, we all exercise a degree of public decency and keep our sex lives private.

I'm all for challenging the status quo, and if kinky people want to be publicly indecent at a kink-themed event, all the power to them. But at Pride, not everyone is willing to participate in such a radical endeavour.

I think this article makes a compelling case for why kink shouldn't be included at Pride events. There are a few flaws in the author's argument (he doesn't acknowledge the fact that kink is an identity for some people, nor the fact that people in the kink community can experience discrimination) but overall, the points he makes resonate with me. I think these two paragraphs are especially important:

Overtly sexualized displays — or in more extreme instances, public sex and nudity — breech the boundaries of good taste and decency even as Pride stretches what is and is not acceptable. It alienates members of our community who are modest, who have ethical or philosophical objections (as many feminists do), who have children, or who simply do not want to participate in your sex life as unwilling voyeurs. BDSM and kink displays deter many of us from attending, including LGBT friends of mine with small kids. Pride should be for everyone in the LGBT community. In order for that to be possible, boundaries must be set and respected.

Pride should keep its focus on LGBT folks and our rights, equality, and liberation — not on a fetish that can include straight people and ostracizes some members of our own community. Every member of our community and all of our allies, from children to pensioners, should be able to celebrate their sexual orientation or gender identity without being forced to participate in someone else’s sex life.
 
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Peter Quill

star-lord
There's something deeply funny about that second paragraph saying that pride should focus on "liberation" while also suggesting that LGBT people cannot express kink - how is that full/true liberation? I don't understand it.
 
I'm tired and working a 20 hour shift so I'm not doing a full response right now, but no one is having public sex for the billionth time.

Equating people in kink displays to being the same thing as having sex right in front of you is some really bigoted ****. Seeing kinky people merely exist isn't "involving you in their sex life" the hell?
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Would you say that a larger percentage of LGBTQ+ people are into kink, compared to straight people? Or is it just that the LGBTQ+ who are into kink have a different relationship with it than straight people do? Maybe there's an aspect to all of this that I'm not understanding - this community is, after all, a lot older than I am.
Doesn't matter. LGBTQ+ as a whole is a minority, the point is that they should still be allowed to be themselves regardless of that. How many percent of people in whatever group is also into kink is simply not relevant when establishing right to be present. Just like it's not relevant how many percent of trans people are also gay compared to how many cis people are gay, etc.
I'm not for a moment suggesting that kinky LGBTQ+ people aren't welcome at Pride. I'm simply suggesting that, while at Pride, we all exercise a degree of public decency and keep our sex lives private.
So you're essentially saying that kink itself is indecent. Do you realise that that very premise is what's being bigoted here?
I'm all for challenging the status quo, and if kinky people want to be publicly indecent at a kink-themed event, all the power to them. But at Pride, not everyone is willing to participate in such a radical endeavour.
Nobody forces those that don't want to participate in the "radical" endeavour to participate. If you don't want to do that you can show off your gayness in a way that's comfortable to you.
 

Peter Quill

star-lord
Nobody forces those that don't want to participate in the "radical" endeavour to participate. If you don't want to do that you can show off your gayness in a way that's comfortable to you.

That's what's so funny to me about our internal community fighting. I straight up hate pup masks and personally don't want to be around them so I just... don't engage with them at pride lmfao. I don't go around saying that they're indecent and have no place there even if I'm not personally comfortable with them.
 

PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
Would you say that a larger percentage of LGBTQ+ people are into kink, compared to straight people? Or is it just that the LGBTQ+ who are into kink have a different relationship with it than straight people do? Maybe there's an aspect to all of this that I'm not understanding - this community is, after all, a lot older than I am.

Percentage is irrelevant; it's the meaning behind kink culture that is important.

In the 1960s, many closeted queer men convened via leather bars, for these venues allowed them to express their masculinity the way they truly desired. These men formed a strong brotherhood-like bond that still exists today, and they would ultimately become one of the first major groups to lead gay rights protests in the 1970s.

The contribution of the kink and leather members is a powerful one, their attire holds a paradoxical symbol of freedom: "They are bound because they choose to be." To remove this from the LGBTQ+ community would be removing a large chunk of our history. It would be like removing Ballroom culture, another powerful community within LGBTQ+.
 

Bill the Typhlosion

Well-Known Member
I'm tired and working a 20 hour shift so I'm not doing a full response right now, but no one is having public sex for the billionth time.

Equating people in kink displays to being the same thing as having sex right in front of you is some really bigoted ****. Seeing kinky people merely exist isn't "involving you in their sex life" the hell?

It's not sex, but it is sexual behaviour. There are many kinds of sexual behaviours that most people would find uncomfortable to witness in a public place, despite not being actual sex. I don't think that being made uncomfortable by kink outfits at Pride is much different than muttering "Get a room!" if you see two people passionately making out on a park bench.

There's something deeply funny about that second paragraph saying that pride should focus on "liberation" while also suggesting that LGBT people cannot express kink - how is that full/true liberation? I don't understand it.

LGBTQ+ liberation is about being able to marry whoever you want, and live as your true gender. The idea that people can't be liberated unless they can bring their sex lives into a public space seems nonsensical to me.

It could be argued that all of us are sexually supressed by society, and that we should be more open about sex, but that's a whole other debate. Within our current societal structure, sexual behaviour in public is deemed inappropriate, and it makes most people uncomfortable.

So you're essentially saying that kink itself is indecent. Do you realise that that very premise is what's being bigoted here?

I was referring to sex in general, not just kink. No form of consensual and safe sexual behaviour is indecent in the bedroom, but it is considered indecent in a public space.

Nobody forces those that don't want to participate in the "radical" endeavour to participate. If you don't want to do that you can show off your gayness in a way that's comfortable to you.

The thing is, though, I wouldn't feel comfortable showing off my gayness at all if I could only do so alongside people who are wearing kink outfits in public (the key word here being "public". Wearing kink outfits in the bedroom is fine by me). Taking part in Pride implies that I endorse everything it represents, not just the way I'm individually expressing myself.

Percentage is irrelevant; it's the meaning behind kink culture that is important.

In the 1960s, many closeted queer men convened via leather bars, for these venues allowed them to express their masculinity the way they truly desired. These men formed a strong brotherhood-like bond that still exists today, and they would ultimately become one of the first major groups to lead gay rights protests in the 1970s.

The contribution of the kink and leather members is a powerful one, their attire holds a paradoxical symbol of freedom: "They are bound because they choose to be." To remove this from the LGBTQ+ community would be removing a large chunk of our history. It would be like removing Ballroom culture, another powerful community within LGBTQ+.

That's interesting, I didn't know about the history behind it. I do appreciate the way that the leather community can put gay men in touch with their masculine side, something which isn't often seen in mainstream media.

I wouldn't have a problem with seeing this or even this at Pride, because it's not inherently sexual. They just look like bikers. It's really only garments that are specifically designed for sex, such as collars and harnesses, that I would take issue with - I don't think those are appropriate for an all-ages event.
 
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AshxSatoshi

Ice Aurelia
So which is it? Is kink and sex apart of the gay community and a huge factor in homosexuality/queerness OR are we more than just sexual deviants and just like anybody else and being gay isn’t all about sex because you can’t have both. No I do not think kink is at the center of queerness. Straight people don’t center their sexuality around their kinks and sexual interests. And then on top of that where does that leave our asexual counterparts? This alienates people with no/low sex drives who probably have no particular interest. Another user claims that seeing kinky LGBT sex is somehow going to make people realize they’re gay? I’m not sure about the rest but it didn’t think watching grown adults having sex for me to realize anything and furthermore even if kink is sexually liberating to LGBTQ+ people why is can’t it be sexually liberating to them as a person? Why must it be the core focus because it liberates SOME people? Not all gay people are the same.
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
So which is it? Is kink and sex apart of the gay community and a huge factor in homosexuality/queerness OR are we more than just sexual deviants and just like anybody else and being gay isn’t all about sex because you can’t have both. No I do not think kink is at the center of queerness. Straight people don’t center their sexuality around their kinks and sexual interests. And then on top of that where does that leave our asexual counterparts? This alienates people with no/low sex drives who probably have no particular interest. Another user claims that seeing kinky LGBT sex is somehow going to make people realize they’re gay? I’m not sure about the rest but it didn’t think watching grown adults having sex for me to realize anything and furthermore even if kink is sexually liberating to LGBTQ+ people why is can’t it be sexually liberating to them as a person? Why must it be the core focus because it liberates SOME people? Not all gay people are the same.
The asexual "trump card" is played.

Asexual =/= sex-repulsed. Know what you're talking about before you assume you can speak on behalf of somebody.

And the classic "#NotAll logic.

Why take it away? How can you be sure they do it all the time, and aren't just doing kink as a performance? #NotAllQueerPeopleIndulgeTheirKinkOutsideOfPride, after all...

The whole event is corporatized anyway. We don't need it becoming a political rally and photo op, if we're allowing #NotAll. Because #NotAllQueerPeopleArePolitical.

Any more #NotAlls you want to deploy?
 

AshxSatoshi

Ice Aurelia
The asexual "trump card" is played.

Asexual =/= sex-repulsed. Know what you're talking about before you assume you can speak on behalf of somebody.

And the classic "#NotAll logic.

Why take it away? How can you be sure they do it all the time, and aren't just doing kink as a performance? #NotAllQueerPeopleIndulgeTheirKinkOutsideOfPride, after all...

The whole event is corporatized anyway. We don't need it becoming a political rally and photo op, if we're allowing #NotAll. Because #NotAllQueerPeopleArePolitical.

Any more #NotAlls you want to deploy?
I’m ace so yes I can speak on it. I never said asexual people are sex repulsed because that would be stupid and even more stupid to assume. How about you stop adding in your own words to make a nonexistent argument okay?
 

Peter Quill

star-lord
LGBTQ+ liberation is about being able to marry whoever you want, and live as your true gender. The idea that people can't be liberated unless they can bring their sex lives into a public space seems nonsensical to me.

What of LGBT+ people who are kinky but do not wish to get married? Does your definition of LGBT liberation really apply to them if their goal in life is to live with kink openly rather than be married? It's more a question of "Are we really liberated if we have to start censoring ourselves because the larger audience is uncomfortable?"

So which is it? Is kink and sex apart of the gay community and a huge factor in homosexuality/queerness OR are we more than just sexual deviants and just like anybody else and being gay isn’t all about sex because you can’t have both.
Yes you can have both lol. What are you going on about?

The biggest difference between myself and a straight person is that I am exclusively sexually attracted to the same sex while they are not. Like this is Gay 101 (So yes, sex is a large factor of homosexuality). At the same time I am someone who is a collection of my various different experiences. I have hobbies, dreams, goals, friends, family, laughter, sadness... and sometimes I also have sex!

Straight people don’t center their sexuality around their kinks and sexual interests.

Straight people also weren't persecuted on the sole basis of their sexual orientation. It's almost like straight and gay people are categorically different in regards to their sexual identity... wait I might be onto something here!

And then on top of that where does that leave our asexual counterparts?

The absence of sexual attraction is different than being same sex attracted. I personally think that the asexual community is its own distinct community with its own distinct challenges.

This alienates people with no/low sex drives who probably have no particular interest.

There are many parts about pride that is welcome to them and geared more towards them. Like I said earlier I think pup hoods are ****ing weird so like during the one part they show up in the parade I usually just look at my phone or talk to my friend.

Another user claims that seeing kinky LGBT sex is somehow going to make people realize they’re gay? I’m not sure about the rest but it didn’t think watching grown adults having sex for me to realize anything and furthermore even if kink is sexually liberating to LGBTQ+ people why is can’t it be sexually liberating to them as a person? Why must it be the core focus because it liberates SOME people?

People aren't having kinky sex in the middle of the street lol this isn't Folsom.
Not all gay people are the same.

You're like so close to understanding the point lol.
 

AshxSatoshi

Ice Aurelia
I don't have any actual commentary, I just want these statements to sit here, together. The rest -- whatever you said or didn't say -- doesn't actually matter here.
I’m confused what did you think you were doing there? I said I can speak from an ace perspective since they accused me or not knowing anything not that my views represent the entire LGBTQ so again what did think you did there?
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
I’m confused what did you think you were doing there? I said I can speak from an ace perspective since they accused me or not knowing anything not that my views represent the entire LGBTQ so again what did think you did there?
I was referring to the seeming conflation of the asexuality and sex repulsion, which is a common misconception. I couldn't have known your sexuality.
 

PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
So which is it? Is kink and sex apart of the gay community and a huge factor in homosexuality/queerness OR are we more than just sexual deviants and just like anybody else and being gay isn’t all about sex because you can’t have both. No I do not think kink is at the center of queerness. Straight people don’t center their sexuality around their kinks and sexual interests. And then on top of that where does that leave our asexual counterparts? This alienates people with no/low sex drives who probably have no particular interest. Another user claims that seeing kinky LGBT sex is somehow going to make people realize they’re gay? I’m not sure about the rest but it didn’t think watching grown adults having sex for me to realize anything and furthermore even if kink is sexually liberating to LGBTQ+ people why is can’t it be sexually liberating to them as a person? Why must it be the core focus because it liberates SOME people? Not all gay people are the same.

Well that's deeply offensive. lol

You're right, not all gay people are the same, so don't berate other gay people for not being like you. Let them be gay in their way, and you be gay in yours. No one is hurting anyone.

NOTE: Before you or anyone else tries the "it sends a bad message" bit, anti-gay/queer people hate us regardless of what we do. They hated all of us before they even heard about kink, and they will hate us long after. And even if they didn't, I refuse to live my life according to someone else's ideals, especially the ideals of those who'd rather I didn't exist.
 
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Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
It's kind of frustrating reading some of the replies to this thread and people conflating kinks at pride with full on sexual intercourse.
There are other replies that make it out like kinks will utterly ruin your kids mind.

To put it this way, I've seen some things as a kid that were beyond my league. For example, there was that scene in the Godfather where a couple are shot in their own bed that I saw as a kid. Heck, one time, when I was about 10-12, I watch this god awful movie with this one scene of this guy dressed as an indigenous tribesman filming himself having sex with someone and making people believe there was a native custom going on. Point is, we move pass it and eventually grow up.

Also imagine those kids playing Animal Crossing eventually coming across the Statue of David, lol!
 

Zora

perpetually tired
I think this article makes a compelling case for why kink shouldn't be included at Pride events. There are a few flaws in the author's argument (he doesn't acknowledge the fact that kink is an identity for some people, nor the fact that people in the kink community can experience discrimination) but overall, the points he makes resonate with me. I think these two paragraphs are especially important:
Skylar Jordan-Baker is a TERF.


Screenshot because he deleted OG tweet, but his entire TERF manifesto is still out there (I'd rather not link it). And the fact he's a TERF matters, because this is exactly how the "no kink at pride" discourse will evolve: "Kink doesn't belong at pride-->trans women aren't women they're men with a kink-->trans folks do not belong at pride." The article you're quoting is laying the bedrock for transphobia in LGBTQIA+ spaces.

----------------------------------
Another user claims that seeing kinky LGBT sex is somehow going to make people realize they’re gay? I’m not sure about the rest but it didn’t think watching grown adults having sex for me to realize anything and furthermore even if kink is sexually liberating to LGBTQ+ people why is can’t it be sexually liberating to them as a person? Why must it be the core focus because it liberates SOME people? Not all gay people are the same.

That someone is me, and that's honestly a poor paraphrasing of what I've said. The basic point I made is this: if someone immersed themselves into leather culture and only realized they were gay within that context, you can't expect them to express their inner gay and leave "leather" at the door.
 

Bill the Typhlosion

Well-Known Member
What of LGBT+ people who are kinky but do not wish to get married? Does your definition of LGBT liberation really apply to them if their goal in life is to live with kink openly rather than be married? It's more a question of "Are we really liberated if we have to start censoring ourselves because the larger audience is uncomfortable?"

I suppose I was over-generalising a bit there. Of course not everyone wants to get married. The point I was trying to make is that Pride is partly about making LGBTQ+ people visible in society, and same sex marriage is an example of a visible thing some LGBTQ+ people do. Other examples include holding hands with, and kissing, people of the same sex, or living proudly as a trans or non-binary person. These are the kinds of things we want to put on display at a Pride event. Things which LGBTQ+ people can be seen doing in society on a day-to-day basis.

Skylar Jordan-Baker is a TERF.

I didn't realise that. How disappointing. :( He has no business writing about LGBTQ+ issues if he doesn't accept trans people.

There are non-transphobic people who hold similar views to those expressed in his article, however. And the idea that these views could somehow lead to transphobia is absurd. Trans people will always be welcome at Pride because 1) being trans isn't a kink, 2) the presence of trans people in public spaces causes no harm whatsoever to anyone and 3) they're literally part of the LGBTQ+ acronym. If you don't accept trans people, you don't accept the LGBTQ+ community.
 
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PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
I really detest when people argue the incontrovertible, especially when it concerns the well being of others, so I'm just going to be frank:

Kink is part of the LGBTQ+ community, regardless of anyone's view on kink culture. It has been part of the community for several decades and will continue to be. Nothing will ever change that. To insist it doesn't belong at or in Pride contradicts the whole point of Pride to begin with.
 
"How disappointing"

It's more embarrassing than anything. If you're insisting that your foibles don't come from a place of prejudice, citing a known bigot to back you is pretty bad.

So which is it? Is kink and sex apart of the gay community and a huge factor in homosexuality/queerness OR are we more than just sexual deviants

This is a good example where I don't think you two are quite hearing yourselves. We won't even get into how much of an egregious false dichotomy or whatever this. Kink is a big aspect of the queer community, but just because something is part that community, doesn't mean that's all or the most important part of it. That is just a very bizarre framing. When you phrase the last question rhetorically like that it just comes off as bigoted and ugly, suggesting these base, animalistic, horny queers aren't part of OUR group.
 
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