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Pride discourse.

Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
YOU were looking for a gotcha where there isn't one.

I was clarifying my position.

Visible arousal, be it male or female, scares people during pride, and sets off alarm bells.

What most people don't realize is that that is controllable.
I was referring to bondage gear as horniness.
 

PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
The association with gay/queer people and sex is something straight people will never understand, because they've never been stripped of, berated for, or denied their sexuality.

As a queer man myself, I spent so many years hiding my sexuality, that the moment I came out I went crazy. When you hold in part of who you are long enough, it eventually explodes, and all you can think about is the desperate desire to have what you've been denied for so long. I've learned not to judge other queer people for their promiscuity or grand sexual expression, because I understand why.

I am happy that most of Gen Z won't have to worry about this, as the western world is far more accepting for queer people now than they were 20 years ago. However, their good fortune prevents them from fully understanding the reason queer culture is so sexualized. As for the Pride Parade, the festivals are far more explicit than the parade itself, so the argument that the parade needs to be toned down is unfounded. The festivals, however, were never meant for children, so they shouldn't even be there to begin with.
 

The Admiral

solid state survivor
Wow, I thought Pyrrhonism went out of fashion about 2250 years ago...
but because it gives people a false perception of the LGBTQ+ community.
Don't gotta worry about that being the thing that causes problems, my guy. I'm pretty sure sure even people who aren't exposed to that who hate the queer community will BS whatever they need to to make them look like weird deviants.
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
The problem comes with treating things as a left/right straight line where it’s more self-label than anything else, since people more often than not tend to fit all over the place with their views, which often contradict each other.

If someone says they’re conservative but openly celebrates pride seeing nothing wrong with it, are they really conservative, and if someone says they’re a leftist but is worried about pedophiles getting kids at LGBT rallies, are they really leftist?

You kind of have to take what they say in a direct situation, and match it with their actions in that moment.

Granted with LGBT rights I never got what the moderate stance is with it, considering you’re either for them or not.
That is whole point of "change my mind" debate to have right wings learned that lgbt is not theirs foe ?
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I don't think there's any harm in being a little bit sexy at Pride, within reason. Kids are exposed to stuff like that in mainstream media all the time - in music videos, for example.

However, I do feel - and I'm sorry if this offends anybody - that there is no place for kink at Pride. Not because of the kids (although that's a valid point too), but because it gives people a false perception of the LGBTQ+ community. If I were taking part in a Pride march and some people behind me were all decked out in leather gear, it would make me really uncomfortable. I wouldn't want passers by to assume that I'm into that too, or that all LGBTQ+ people are.

There's nothing wrong with kink, as long as it's consensual and doesn't harm anyone. Anyone who finds that it enriches their life should embrace it and be proud of their sexual identity. I don't really understand what kink has to do with the LGBTQ+ community though, not when it's something that is, to my knowledge, equally popular with straight people.
I think you're kind of missing the point of pride then. It is about diversity and accepting that diversity. People have different tastes, different identities, different interests. That applies to a lot of things in life, food, music, clothing, shows, humour, and also sexual attraction. And the point is that people shouldn't be excluded, attacked, discriminated against, etc just for being different from the mainstream as long as those differences don't harm anybody. LGBTQ+ people have been attacked, discriminated against, excluded from communities, and executed over the course of history just for being who they are, because some other folks "feel uncomfortable" around them. And by wanting to exclude kink from pride just because of your own "feeling uncomfortable", you're doing essentially the same. If you feel uncomfortable around them, that's your issue to deal with. You don't have to date them, you don't have to be friends with them, you don't have to join them, you just don't get to discriminate against them, scold them, attack them, or ban them from public events just because of your feelings.
 

PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
However, I do feel - and I'm sorry if this offends anybody - that there is no place for kink at Pride. Not because of the kids (although that's a valid point too), but because it gives people a false perception of the LGBTQ+ community. If I were taking part in a Pride march and some people behind me were all decked out in leather gear, it would make me really uncomfortable. I wouldn't want passers by to assume that I'm into that too, or that all LGBTQ+ people are.

Kink is a valid part of the LGBTQ+ community, and it seems the only reason you feel otherwise is because of your own personal views toward it, which is ultimately the antithesis of Pride, and the very essence of discrimination: "I don't like it, so you can't do it."

If people are simply standing behind you at an event and the way they are dressed is bothering you, the problem isn't theirs, mate. It's your. You have to be the one to leave. A person's choice of attire is no one's concern but their own, especially at an event meant to be inclusive of all peoples. The only exception would be attire with imagery explicitly expressing hate or violence towards others, which kink attire does not do.

Your worry that passersby would assume you're also into kink affirms this is a personal issue. That's fine; by all means take of it, but don't make it someone else's issue. Queer people get enough that as it is.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
I do wonder how much of that could be the more “color blind” anti-racism and discrimination campaigns in the 90’s. They would push to not treat people bad based on things they were born with and cannot change, but didn’t get much into more cultural or interest differences, and in a few ways wanted to be more quiet about it than anything else and not have to talk about differences that might make people in the majority feel out of place simply because it is different.

Especially since the 90’s does feel to age more and more with LGBT depictions.
 

Teravolt

Justice for Avi!
Putting my two cents here:


Note: I prefer the term “sexually explorative” over “kink” or “kinky”. I don’t know why.

So, overall, I don’t care what people are into sexually. I understand the overlap between LGBTQ+ pride and sexually explorative pride, and why the latter is seen at LGBTQ+ events. Both have to do with sex.

I do think that the “for the children” argument has at least a tiny amount of validity. When I was a kid, I was (unintentionally) exposed to stuff on the internet. It was traumatizing. So I understand the concern that certain sexual things at pride events would have a negative impact on kids. However, I don’t think the people into sexually explorative stuff would be having sex with each other or discussing it with the kids. I suppose that a parent taking a kid to a pride event with some sexually explorative content would go to another area of the event, where the explorative content wouldn’t be visible.

Even so, I agree with the statement that trying to put tons of regulations on pride events comes down to people not liking the LGBTQ+ community.
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
Putting my two cents here:


Note: I prefer the term “sexually explorative” over “kink” or “kinky”. I don’t know why.

So, overall, I don’t care what people are into sexually. I understand the overlap between LGBTQ+ pride and sexually explorative pride, and why the latter is seen at LGBTQ+ events. Both have to do with sex.

I do think that the “for the children” argument has at least a tiny amount of validity. When I was a kid, I was (unintentionally) exposed to stuff on the internet. It was traumatizing. So I understand the concern that certain sexual things at pride events would have a negative impact on kids. However, I don’t think the people into sexually explorative stuff would be having sex with each other or discussing it with the kids. I suppose that a parent taking a kid to a pride event with some sexually explorative content would go to another area of the event, where the explorative content wouldn’t be visible.

Even so, I agree with the statement that trying to put tons of regulations on pride events comes down to people not liking the LGBTQ+ community.
The whole thing is an excuse for lazy parents to not parent or share, mixed with right-tainted politics, wannabe exercising of wrath upon Sodom and Gomorrah in the name of a person they fail to acknowlege as a brown antifa Jew (and whose lore may based off of Bacchus, depending on your drift) and his Jupiter-Yahweh Angry Sky Daddy, and/or unwanted proselytizing/soul-saving shite.

Most adults would fail Pre-K.
 

Bill the Typhlosion

Well-Known Member
Don't gotta worry about that being the thing that causes problems, my guy. I'm pretty sure sure even people who aren't exposed to that who hate the queer community will BS whatever they need to to make them look like weird deviants.

Intolerant people will, indeed, find excuses to attack the LGBTQ+ community whatever you do. But I'm thinking more about the people who are on the fence, who have the potential to become tolerant. The presence of kink and sexually deviant behaviour at Pride isn't going to help to win those people over. It'll just make them confused about what being LGBTQ+ means.

I think you're kind of missing the point of pride then. It is about diversity and accepting that diversity. People have different tastes, different identities, different interests. That applies to a lot of things in life, food, music, clothing, shows, humour, and also sexual attraction. And the point is that people shouldn't be excluded, attacked, discriminated against, etc just for being different from the mainstream as long as those differences don't harm anybody. LGBTQ+ people have been attacked, discriminated against, excluded from communities, and executed over the course of history just for being who they are, because some other folks "feel uncomfortable" around them. And by wanting to exclude kink from pride just because of your own "feeling uncomfortable", you're doing essentially the same. If you feel uncomfortable around them, that's your issue to deal with. You don't have to date them, you don't have to be friends with them, you don't have to join them, you just don't get to discriminate against them, scold them, attack them, or ban them from public events just because of your feelings.
Kink is a valid part of the LGBTQ+ community, and it seems the only reason you feel otherwise is because of your own personal views toward it, which is ultimately the antithesis of Pride, and the very essence of discrimination: "I don't like it, so you can't do it."

If people are simply standing behind you at an event and the way they are dressed is bothering you, the problem isn't theirs, mate. It's your. You have to be the one to leave. A person's choice of attire is no one's concern but their own, especially at an event meant to be inclusive of all peoples. The only exception would be attire with imagery explicitly expressing hate or violence towards others, which kink attire does not do.

Your worry that passersby would assume you're also into kink affirms this is a personal issue. That's fine; by all means take of it, but don't make it someone else's issue. Queer people get enough that as it is.

I accept all forms of diversity, including kink, but Pride is specifically about celebrating LGBTQ+ people. It's really important that every minority group is allowed to have its own dedicated space, so that its voice can be heard. You don't have to focus on everybody all of the time in order to accept them.

Take the Black Lives Matter movement, for example. Its message isn't that non-black lives don't matter, just that it's important to give black people a voice. If non-black people started turning up to Black Lives Matter events demanding that they be given a voice too, black people would then be denied their voice.

It's the same with the LGBTQ+ and kink communities. They're two separate communities, each equally deserving of having their voices heard. LGBTQ+ lives matter, and that's what Pride is about, but that doesn't mean kink lives don't matter. By all means organise a Kink Pride event and give a voice to those people, but please don't piggyback on LGBTQ+ Pride and take away my voice.
 
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bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
Most experts consider it the rise of internet porn and now easy it is to access, along with a large amount of those in power pushing for a ban that isn’t really feasible without properly educating kids about sex that’s the root issue.
 
Intolerant people will, indeed, find excuses to attack the LGBTQ+ community whatever you do. But I'm thinking more about the people who are on the fence, who have the potential to become tolerant. The presence of kink and sexually deviant behaviour at Pride isn't going to help to win those people over. It'll just make them confused about what being LGBTQ+ means.




I accept all forms of diversity, including kink, but Pride is specifically about celebrating LGBTQ+ people. It's really important that every minority group is allowed to have its own dedicated space, so that its voice can be heard. You don't have to focus everybody all of the time in order to accept them.

Take the Black Lives Matter movement, for example. Its message isn't that non-black lives don't matter, just that it's important to give black people a voice. If non-black people started turning up to Black Lives Matter events demanding that they be given a voice too, black people would then be denied their voice.

It's the same with the LGBTQ+ and kink communities. They're two separate communities, each equally deserving of having their voices heard. LGBTQ+ lives matter, and that's what Pride is about, but that doesn't mean kink lives don't matter. By all means organise a Kink Pride event and give a voice to those people, but please don't piggyback on LGBTQ+ Pride and take away my voice.

That still doesn't make a lot of sense. Pride isn't about getting people to join our side. Obviously, that's a perk, but that isn't the design. Pride is about celebrating who you are without the concern, foibles or hang ups of bigots. Winning people over, changing their mind, that's activism, that's work. We're not on the job at pride. We're celebrating.

The issue with excluding kink from LGBTQ spaces is that its ignorant. We owe solidarity to them because we receive hate and discrimination for the same reasons. Our community has had a track record of wanting to exclude people and succumb to infighting, from discrimination against bisexual people, asexual people, denying the validity of non binary and trans people, etc. Being queer, being part of this community, is about loving and protecting all sexuality and sexual identity that does no harm to others, and that includes our kinky brothers and sisters. They're part of the family and I won't hear otherwise.
 
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Zora

perpetually tired
I'm like a whole two days late to this conversation and my Arceus there's a lot I need to get through. Before I go onto specific quotes y'all really need to understand this argument:
  • Sexuality is harmful to youth
  • We must curb exposure of sexuality to youth
  • Ergo, jettison kink at pride (and all queer expression outside of specifically 18+ spaces), because think of the children
is a.) completely BS and b.) weaponized against LGBTQIA+ folks. And I pre-emptively apologize for beating several dead horses because it feels like I'm talking to a wall, but anyway...

"Sexuality" is just so broad and entangled with society, even for youth, that you cannot describe it as harmful or anything really. Even your Disney film uses themes of sexuality; all those Princes and Princessess are some artists' idea of sexy. So you need to ask what aspects of sexuality are harmful, and do so critically. As in, why is THIS considered harmful, but THIS is not? Why is THIS considered harmful, but THIS is not? Why is THIS considered harmful, but THIS is not? You can look through this thread for more examples, but let me state the obvious: people use "harmful" as a euphemism for "transgressive (i.e. queer) sexual expression that makes cishets uncomfortable." Pride ain't about your comfort; being transgressive is the point because queer folks can only compartmentalize themselves or be transgressive. And yes, compartmentalization is very much the point of "think of the children," look no further than Anita Bryant, professional anti-LGBTQIA+ PoS and founder of "Save the Children," who was literally using children as a prop to ask us to compartmentalize as far back as the 70s:

I repeat my belief: Homosexuals do not suffer discrimination when they keep their perversions in the privacy of their homes. They can hold any job, transact any business, join any organization- so long as they do not flaunt their homosexuality and try to establish role models for the impressionable young people- our children. I will continue to fight the attempts of Metro, and the attempts of a few Congressmen who on February 2 presented a similar type of bill in the Congress of the United States to legitimize homosexuality. Homosexuals cannot reproduce- so they must recruit. And to freshen their ranks, they must recruit the youth of America. I shall continue to fight against that recruitment. Those who do not share my conviction may continue to blacklist my talent- but with God's help, they can never blacken my name.
How this really all that different from what y'all are saying now? At best, i see a goalpost moved from "[recruiting] the youth of America" to "harming the youth of America" (by means of not keeping their "perversions"/kinks/etc. in the privacy of their home), but it feels the same.

also, it's not about the children, let's drop that take. Many of the same people who say "think of the children" when it's about kink in pride have for some totally not hypocritical reason stopped thinking about the children when it comes to, say, Florida's ability to let teachers have unfettered access to the students' genitals. Again, this discussion isn't about harm; it's about transgression.

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on second thought, what I said in the spoiler below wasn't too relevant to the discussion at hand.

One more thing, and maybe this is a hot take: A reason why I'm so adamant that queer sexual expression/imagery must be available to young folks is because healthy sexual expression/imagery is just downright formative to growing up. Queer folks need something to figure out who we are, and unless you want that something to be pornography (which it often is), said sexual content needs to be created with a <18yo audience in mind. I'm not going to say pornography is healthy, lmao no, my 15yo ass watched way too much twink porn because that was all I effing had. We don't get outwardly gay CW series, gay romantic MCU B plots, or gay Disney "happily ever after" endings. And if "kink at Pride" is too much for you, pray tell, what is is queer, sexual, but isn't too much?

anyway, onto to responding to specific claims made in the past two days.

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Whew so many things to take in here. First I believe pride should be used for whatever the LGBTQ+ community is prideful for which includes expression of sexuality. However I'm not going to let you say that adult's expressing their sexuality doesn't do anything to children mentally not when there are 400x articles describing the effects of porn on youth minds that can be found quickly with a Google search.
Please stop with "just google it." Yes, there's a lot of academic studies as "effects of porn on youth" is an active area of research, but the lot of them (e.g. this one) basically say "we need more research on casual links;" google isn't providing much (here's a less academic article on the same topic). "Pornography is correlated with sexual violence, kink at pride looks like pornography, ergo kink at pride might cause sexual violence" is not a good take. And when we say adult sexuality, we're not talking about pornography; infer context please! We're talking about the entire spectrum of ways adults show sexuality.

I do not believe that adults should be expressing their sexuality in front of children however if children decide to experiment with OTHER children it is what it is.

Children and youth will see adults (e.g. celebrities) expressing their sexuality because it's effing everywhere. The question is what sexual content they see, not if. See top of post. "I do not believe," means nought when it's an everyday occurrence.

You also need to show clarification of what exact “kinks” are you talking about. Yes obviously someone in a custome (depending on what it is) isn’t comparable to some porn scenes but you didn’t clarify what type of kinks are you discussing so don’t get upset when your readers looks at this and assumes things you never touched on.

We're talking about kinky outfits you find at Pride. Again, see top of post for examples.
---------------------------------------
See I knew someone was going to equate this with saying “all gay men are predators”. As someone who is apart of the community I can say that this a reach and projection. Arguing that children shouldn’t exposed to sexual things involving adults is in no way implying that all gay mean are pe**’s. Especially with the social climate we are in with all of the trafficking and grooming allegations going on with children these days I’m not even sure why this is a discussion hetero or homosexual.
no, peter quill is right. This rhetoric is just "all gays are pedos" version 2.0. Compare with Bryant's quote at the top. And to continue beating an eternally dead horse: children are exposed to sexuality daily but people for some reason only get concerned when it's queer. Minors can go to Hooters, I don't see people making a fuss about that.

Also, if you want to actually examine the harm of traffickng and grooming, you need to start with real people and work backwards from there; behaviors you see at Pride are not consistnet with warning signs of grooming or trafficking at all.

You seem to have no problem with children being exposed to adults having sex
PEOPLE. AREN'T. HAVING. SEX. AT. PRIDE.

If the issue was people having public sex that'll be a completely different discussion, but that's not what's happening.

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However, I do feel - and I'm sorry if this offends anybody - that there is no place for kink at Pride. Not because of the kids (although that's a valid point too), but because it gives people a false perception of the LGBTQ+ community. If I were taking part in a Pride march and some people behind me were all decked out in leather gear, it would make me really uncomfortable. I wouldn't want passers by to assume that I'm into that too, or that all LGBTQ+ people are.

There's nothing wrong with kink, as long as it's consensual and doesn't harm anyone. Anyone who finds that it enriches their life should embrace it and be proud of their sexual identity. I don't really understand what kink has to do with the LGBTQ+ community though, not when it's something that is, to my knowledge, equally popular with straight people.

This is just respectability politics, and respectability politics never worts. It only eschews the most vulernable members of a community. If cishet folks are only cool with us when we're compartmentalized, that ain't liberation.

It's the same with the LGBTQ+ and kink communities. They're two separate communities, each equally deserving of having their voices heard. LGBTQ+ lives matter, and that's what Pride is about, but that doesn't mean kink lives don't matter. By all means organise a Kink Pride event and give a voice to those people, but please don't piggyback on LGBTQ+ Pride and take away my voice.

asdf

Kink communities and LGBTQIA+ communities have huge overlap! WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR Y'ALL TO EFFING UNDERSTAND? I'm just linking to this twitter thread because I'm getting tired of beating this dead horse:


And two more reasons not mentioned in the thread: 1.) most kink communities center the purpose of sex as pleasure and not reproduction, which can be liberating to queer folks and 2.) a lot of queer folks need to see very kinky sex to realize they're LGBTQIA+ bceause mainstream images, to whatever extent they can apply to a queer experience, don't do anything. Y'all keep talking as if these kinksters who show up aren't LGBTQIA+ themselves when they effing are.

I'm not even going to flirt with the analogy to BLM; my advice is always always avoid comparing marginalized groups to each other because nuance makes these comparisons damn near impossible.

Intolerant people will, indeed, find excuses to attack the LGBTQ+ community whatever you do. But I'm thinking more about the people who are on the fence, who have the potential to become tolerant. The presence of kink and sexually deviant behaviour at Pride isn't going to help to win those people over. It'll just make them confused about what being LGBTQ+ means.

Also, the LGBTQIA+ movement became stronger because by making noise and showing ourselves shamelessly, more people realized they were queer and came out. It was that power in numbers that made us stronger; not respectability politics. Kinksters are part of that process.

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I do think that the “for the children” argument has at least a tiny amount of validity. When I was a kid, I was (unintentionally) exposed to stuff on the internet. It was traumatizing. So I understand the concern that certain sexual things at pride events would have a negative impact on kids. However, I don’t think the people into sexually explorative stuff would be having sex with each other or discussing it with the kids. I suppose that a parent taking a kid to a pride event with some sexually explorative content would go to another area of the event, where the explorative content wouldn’t be visible.

I'm sorry that happened to you. However, and sorry if this sounds dismissive, but if what you saw on the internet was worse than what you see passively in advertisements (e.g., cw: sexual themes), Superbowl halftime shows (e.g. sexual themes), or a music video (e.g. sexual themes), then it's probably more explicit than whatever is being discussed. Again, see top of post that compares pride outfits with oufits found in other contexts (i.e. teenage halloween party, mardi gras event, and a swimsuit advert).

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dear arceus that was a long post.
 
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I think the subject of pornagraphic material was a purposeful attempt to take me down a worm hole. As I mentioned and you did as well, it's far out of context and an extreme example compared to kink outfits. While I do still hold the opinion that pornographic material may not be inherently or uniquely damaging to youth (unrealistic body standards, power fantasies, etc are harmful to adults as well) and it would depend on how its portrayed, that's a discussion that deserves it's own topic and is too complex/far removed from the conversation at hand to be having both at the same time.
 

PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
It's the same with the LGBTQ+ and kink communities. They're two separate communities, each equally deserving of having their voices heard. LGBTQ+ lives matter, and that's what Pride is about, but that doesn't mean kink lives don't matter. By all means organise a Kink Pride event and give a voice to those people, but please don't piggyback on LGBTQ+ Pride and take away my voice.

Kink within the queer community is not the same as kink outside of it. In fact, my straight friends don't even refer to it as kink, but rather 'fetish' or an umbrella 'BDSM.'

There is a long-standing cultural tie to kink within the queer community, and it is incredibly important, at least to me, to ensure this part of queer history is acknowledged. Thus, it cannot be separated from LGBTQ+.
 

Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
I think the subject of pornagraphic material was a purposeful attempt to take me down a worm hole. As I mentioned and you did as well, it's far out of context and an extreme example compared to kink outfits. While I do still hold the opinion that pornographic material may not be inherently or uniquely damaging to youth (unrealistic body standards, power fantasies, etc are harmful to adults as well) and it would depend on how its portrayed, that's a discussion that deserves it's own topic and is too complex/far removed from the conversation at hand to be having both at the same time.
Let's not talk about pornography then, since it's not related.
 

Teravolt

Justice for Avi!
I'm sorry that happened to you. However, and sorry if this sounds dismissive, but if what you saw on the internet was worse than what you see passively in advertisements (e.g., cw: sexual themes), Superbowl halftime shows (e.g. sexual themes), or a music video (e.g. sexual themes), then it's probably more explicit than whatever is being discussed. Again, see top of post that compares pride outfits with oufits found in other contexts (i.e. teenage halloween party, mardi gras event, and a swimsuit advert).

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dear arceus that was a long post.
thanks for pointing that out! i’ve never been to a pride event, so i don’t have firsthand knowledge of what kinky things are displayed there. when i hear people talking about kinks, my mind automatically goes to graphic stuff. if the kinky content at pride is just people in leather suits, i don’t have a problem with that. the stuff i saw on the internet was pretty awful stuff, far more so than generic sex on TV (which really creeps me out).

by the way, i appreciate that long post of yours. it was informative and well-thought out. thanks for sharing!
 
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