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Proving One's Self, and my First Impressions.

Weaver

Just a 90's Blue.
Let's begin. I know you don't know me, and I don't know you. So ignore who I am and just pay attention to the text within this message.

The title, "Proving One's Self" is a subject I've come here to look into, seeing how this is the appropriate board, apparently. We all know that, whether freely discussed or not, "new writers" are often ignored, whether on these forums or some other website completely. "New writers..." Does that always mean they're new to the art of writing? New to the forum, yes, but an entirely new writer overall? Nah.

Now, before you get all defensive and disagree with my theory completely, take a look around. I've been here only a day or two, and already have a somewhat decent idea of what goes on around here (the Fan Fiction board). And I must say, it's very interesting. Mm.

I mean no offense when I say this (or do I?), but it seems that [many] writers/readers here come here for 2 things only: To write their own fan fiction(s), and to completely annihilate "crappy" fan fiction, usually those that are new. Now, this interests me. "They" seem to flock to fan fictions featuring the worst material, just to scream at them about how horrible they are at writing, and how they'll fail at life if they don't follow the rules. I may be exaggerating, yes, but this is basically what happens.

Don't get mad at me for it: This is what I've been left with. This has been my first impression; the "violent" acts of "reviewing." That, or just pummeling an author into submission for not following the rules. Doesn't this place have a simple "Report Abuse" button? Instead of taking the time to read something else -- something worth reading -- they just criticize a one-star fan fiction for all it's worth. I don't know if anyone else found this amusing, but I did. I mean, I was seriously not expecting this when I decided to check out a Pokemon forum.

(Also, keep in mind that I'm not saying everyone here does just this -- I've seen some others that have seriously impressed me with their comments, whether good or bad -- this is just one thing I've seen throughout my short, short time here, and found it an interesting subject to discuss.)

But I digress, seriously.

I want to understand what one has to do to prove themself on this forum. And don't tell me it's "write your very best!" because I've studied fan fiction for some time (not as long as most of you, though, I'm sure) and know for a fact that that's not true. It's a cute way to dream, but it's never 100%.

I've seen some very good writers here, I must admit. Quite superior to my own work, at least. I'm not saying that any of them don't deserve what they have -- trust me. This thread isn't about that at all. It's just a subject I'm curious about.

If you've been successful here, on the Serebii forums, then I ask you: How did you "climb the mountain?" (Scale, ascend -- use whatever you wish.) I'm sincerely interested to hear how you've achieved such a level; I'm sure many writers here would like to know the same thing.

As for writers that are just starting out here, what are your plans for proving yourself? Me, well, my plans involve listening to people who have done so, as well as anyone else that wishes to contribute to the subject. Let's hope this topic goes somewhere. *Crosses fingers.*

Oh, and thanks for your time. Sorry if I offended you. Heh.
 

Negrek

Lost but Seeking
I want to understand what one has to do to prove themself on this forum.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this statement. You'll need to be a little more specific; when you say "prove yourself", do you mean become an excellent writer, or "recognized by the community as an excellent writer", or "have work become popular at these fora?" While all three may come hand-in-hand, they don't always, and the methods to achieve each of them are at least subtly different. Or, of course, you could substitute a definition more to your liking for any one of those three.

This has been my first impression; the "violent" acts of "reviewing."
Unsurprising. Happens anywhere you go on the internet to one degree or another, really, at least in my experience. Regrettable? Maybe. More prevalent here? Perhaps. Unusual? Nope.
 

Isfahan

Well-Known Member
I'm hardly a new writer, but just the same I have a grand total of one fic here on Serebii, because this is the place where it's most likely to be enjoyed. If I write more Pokémon-related stuff down the line, it'll go here as well. If there's a social ladder or some sort of hierarchy that needs climbing while I'm here, I wasn't aware of it. I'm a writer, and the topics above and below mine were done by writers as well. Peers, in other words. With that, peer reviews tend to be the most honest, and yeah, the most brutal. I like it that way, however, and the point that is giving you pause for concern is the same point that attracted me and made me decide to post my fic here as opposed to somewhere else.

Good works draw praise and bad works draw criticism. The style of criticism is just that, a style. It might rub some people the wrong way, but there's no accounting for taste on either end. I can't speak for everyone's motivations, but if someone is taking the time to address someone else's work, then there is probably at least some desire there to see that writer improve.

From what I've seen, improvement nets a writer more respect than just about anything else. Even the harshest critics will admit when there has been improvement. If you think your writing ability is at a plateau, then it's these same reviews that will help you improve even more. Thick skin is a must--don't get caught up in the tone and language of the review itself. Sift out the useful bits and move on; make those reviews work for you.
 

Psychic

Really and truly
Hmmm, you bring up an interesting topic there, Weaver. Of course, if I had the answer to your question, I would be closer to the top of the FanFiction food chain, and more than a constantly overlooked reviewer.

I'll admit that right now I am one of those reviewers who will bluntly tell a person they are doing something wrong. Of course I always tell people they can improve, and I try to show them how through example and advice, but after awhile your efforts just seem to go unrewarded and you because 'spiteful and wrathful' in the words of Hecate from Macbeth.
But that's a topic for another day.



Like Dilacs, I don't quite get what you mean by 'proving yourself'. In just what sense do you mean? How far have you gone when you have 'proven yourself' anyway?
And besides, who am I proving myself to? Other Pokémon lovers who live halfway across the world from me? Or am I trying to show myself that I can do something? Is it about me, or them?


But until I get an answer, I just want to ask you a question:
Why do you think we write FanFiction? What do you think hundreds of people post their work in a place where thousands can read it? Do you think they do it for recognition, or to prove themself? What do you think is the point? What do you think is their goal?

Like you, I'm just curious, because I get the impression that your answer and mine differ quite a bit.
Heck, my answer is probably different than that of most other forum members.



And going off topic a bit here, but I just want to comment on something:
Isfahan said:
Good works draw praise and bad works draw criticism. The style of criticism is just that, a style.
Not quite.

Even the good works receive criticism. Although everyone likes praise (there’s no denying it) people also want criticism to hear where they can improve. And in most cases, even the good fics receive criticism. Maybe it’s to a less harsh degree because they have the basics down pat, but even if I see an amazing fic, I’ll look for places where the author could work on and put it right there next to the praise.


Just my opinion, even if it doesn’t sound like an opinion. And now Weaver will probably know a bit of my own answer to the question I asked him.


~Psychic
 

Isfahan

Well-Known Member
Not quite.

Even the good works receive criticism. Although everyone likes praise (there’s no denying it) people also want criticism to hear where they can improve. And in most cases, even the good fics receive criticism. Maybe it’s to a less harsh degree because they have the basics down pat, but even if I see an amazing fic, I’ll look for places where the author could work on and put it right there next to the praise.

Reading my own post back now, yeah, I should have been clearer. I absolutely agree that no fic is "safe from" or "above" criticism, or that the authors wish their own works to be so. I was trying to point out what certain fics tend to attract certain styles of reviews, and by extension, reviewers who employ those styles.
 

Orange_Flaaffy

Jello Pokéballs
I've never felt the need to prove myself here, granted, I'm a pretty overlooked author here, and well known in my home forum, but that is beside the point.

I guess I started out in the fanfic world wanting to 'prove myself' when I was fourteen-sixteen or so.

But now at age twenty three I am much more about writing for myself and just posting to share my writing with the world than being a shining star of fanfic.

I feel that writing something I would love to read draws in readers of the same wavelink and although I may never be famous here I don’t think I would really want to be...
 
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Bay

YEAHHHHHHH
When I started fanfiction, I admit I did it because I was inspired by a few of the member's works and want to "prove myself" that I can be one of the well known writers. Also, I want to prove to the memebers here that I can write well like any other writer. You can say I want to be one of the big boys. ^^;;

From my experience here in the fanfiction forums, it takes patience and improvement to be known at least a little bit. If you are willing to heed your reviewer's advice and take the time to improve your work little by little, then they will notice that you can indeed have potential with the story. There, you prove them that you can write a good fanfiction story.

If you are here to be well known, then you will have to present a work that is like out of this world. I will say that some want to be well known so that person will know they are taken seriously as a writer and some want to be well known for fame.

I also agree with Psychic that even the best works need a little criticism to get it even better. Take Saber's "Pokemon Revelation" story for example. It is a very popular and great fanfiction. Despite that, I gave a few criticisms on some scenes that needed a little descrption. Saber actually was fond of my criticism as it made her want to make the story even better. ;)

Ugh, I felt there are many things wrong I said here. Aw well, I just want to have a say on this. ^^;

;134;~Good night, and good luck~
 

Weaver

Just a 90's Blue.
Wow, it seems I have a lot to reply to.

When I speak of "proving yourself HERE," I suppose I'm speaking about a bit of everything: becoming a decent/excellent writer, "being recognized by the community as an excellent writer (or more so just a "known" writer, but that's fine, too)", and "have work become known on these forums."

You see, becoming known as a writer and being renowned as an excellent, popular writer (in this case, on a certain forum) are two different things completely. I would like to hear about both of them, but the original subject was leaning more towards just being...identified. It sometimes takes a while for writers that are new to a forum to become recognized, no matter how good they are -- I actually see more of the bad being recognized, which I'll talk about more later on -- and I've seen this happen quite a few times, so I decided to ask any of you about this subject; your thoughts on it. I suppose I choose this place because of the maturity here -- I've seen more of it on Serebii than anywhere else. (Though I haven't really been to many of "these places," I admit.)

And now, on to the topic of "violent reviewing."

Hmm... I see what some of you mean, but I think I was being somewhat misunderstood. I understand that constructive criticism helps an author grow, whether extremely harsh or not, but I was referring more to the "violent" comments/complaints/reviews that are given to fan fictions that are obviously not worth anyone's time.

(I admit that I should have clarified a bit of my comments; I apologize.)

Maybe those people do read worthwhile fan fiction and just do that as a side thing, but still -- why must there be so much of it? I believe that, somewhere on the rules or something relevant to them, it says to just "Report Abuse" the waste and be on your way. Maybe I'm missing something here, but does posting on certain users' fan fictions that are constantly repeated out of pure obnoxiousness and stating that they should, "READ THE RULES AND ADVICE FOR ASPIRING AUTHORS, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!" and then squashing the life out of them count as OK, and making the Fan Fiction board a better place? It might "better" the author (if he or she doesn't have a fit of surprise/rage, first,) but isn't that what the MOD will say when he/she locks the thread? I'm sure, like you said, Psychic, that people get fed up with the constant "ignorance" of the certain writers, but does that mean they should keep pounding them into the ground until something hopefully happens?

Reviewing something worth reviewing is perfectly fine, in my opinion. I've looked around and have seen one (or two) of your reviews, Psychic, and think they're fine. (Or do I? Maybe I should go back and check... *Chuckles*) Reviewing something harshly and leaving angry comments are two different subjects. While I think it's good to note the good AND the bad of a fan fiction [chapter], what really is going to help the author is constructively criticizing it, and not babying the author with compliments that'll het them nowhere.

BUT, noting the good is important; more so than some people tend to think, based on what I've seen...here. It tells the author that they did a [good] job (if a student just keeps getting beaten by a bully, he isn't going to want to go to school -- my awesome analogy), and that they should keep the successful elements in their writing.

The bad, of course, tells them what they should/need to improve on. It's true: All of us can be bettered in one form or another, whether it has to do with watching a movie in an AMC or writing.

Commenting about both tells the writer what they're doing well, and what they need to do better. They can then keep the good and work on the bad so that the bad turns good. It's a win-win situation, rather than a "non-existent-win" or lose-win situation. *Head spins slightly.*

Now to answer a few questions.

But until I get an answer, I just want to ask you a question:
Why do you think we write FanFiction? What do you think hundreds of people post their work in a place where thousands can read it? Do you think they do it for recognition, or to prove themself? What do you think is the point? What do you think is their goal?

Well, there is no "we" involved, at least not with everyone. Unless you, if you are a writer, are saying that you consider yourself the same kind of writer as, say, the writers that people shout angrily at. Therefore, I can't give one answer to that. I can, however, give several answers.

Some write just for the sake of writing (boredom, perhaps), some write in hopes of getting many readers (popularity, fame, etc.) even if they're not "good" at writing, some write for "practice," if they want to become an author in the future, whether near of far, some do it for the sake of participating in an activity with others, friends, etc. -- the list goes on.

If one wants an answer to that, one would just ask other writers. But, they would never get one same answer. I'm pretty sure that no answer is going to be the same as the last. It could be similar, yes, but no one author is going to have the same consideration as everyone else.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I left out some material, and if I did, I apologize. I don't have time to route through every comment, so, if you can, please find it in your hearts to forgive me. *Insert appropriate smiley here.*

Thanks for all of your comments thus far!
 

Freawaru

Well-Known Member
I've studied fan fiction for some time

Fanfic - serious business. :D

I haven't posted any of my own work here, mainly 'cause I don't currently have any Pokemon work, but I hope to eventually. I do often review one-star fics, but hopefully in a constructive way.

When I do come to post something of my own here, I'm not going to be worrying about proving myself or becoming renowned as an excellent writer. I write for fun and love, and if someone likes what I write, I'm happy. If they don't like it... I'll consider their argument :p
 

Ledian_X

Don Ledianni
Interesting topic, Weaver.

I don't think I needed to prove myself despite being one of the few non pokemon authors who hasn't written anything pokemon. I just write because I like it and SPP does have a Non Pokemon board. So, I use it. Sure, I could have posted it on a comics board. But, they're kind of close minded and only want stories with established superheroes like Spidey.

So, I posted it here instead. The non pokemon forum needed something orignal aside from the LOZ stories. Some people even created superheroes to go with the fanfic universe. They'll get to writing the stories about them. Some day. I think.

But, I digress. You don't have to post only pokemon work. I'm living proof of that. Story's been going on for a year now and after that's done, I have a series of oneshots. Non pokemon fics, if done right can prosper here on the board. There's no rule saying you HAVE to post pokemon stories.

Anyway, I don't feel the need to prove myself to anyone. I just do what I do because I like writing. I post here because I want to. Nothing else matters. My story's original and I like bringing variety here to SPPf.

As for violent reviewers, I say let them rant. If there's a grammar error and they point it ot, you can fix it. I've had plenty. Trust me. Some people point them out and I say "okay". There's no law saying you can't go back and edit, too.

People just gotta relax and go with the flow.

LX
 

Tale

Well-Known Member
One big factor about this fanfic board is that its a community. A very tight-knit one, I might add, eveyone knows who everyone is, and its not hard to let people know who you are. But what predominently gets you 'up there' like any community, is friends. If you have friends and contacts within a community like this, you really can go far. Most people on this board are very, very friendly people, and you only need to post a number of times/release a really decent fanfic or something to get noticed by people, and begin making friends. If you were more outgoing than most, then I'm sure you'd get popular quite quickly.

To get noticed, however, theres many ways. Its not that hard really, its not like people choose to notice and remember someone. If you have a unique character, and intrigue a few people with your personality, then will get you recognised. If you become a wide reviewer with decent points, or a certain style, that will get you recognised. Even writing in a different font or colour can get you recognised.

When I first came here, like probably EVERYBODY else, I was crap. But what made me improve, and become more well known, was that I got myself a few friends. Then these friends helped me, and I improved and so on and so forth.

But really, if you just post a lot on the forum, it doesn't take long for people to notice you here, because what we have is a community, and if you have something to offer, that will get you noticed.

As for the violent reviewers, it will be ongoing, because newbies are constantly posting their own fics that dont abide by rules and there will never be a time when no newbie doesn't post without reading the rules, its a constant circle, so you know. People are different, and they review in different ways.
 

Dragonfree

Just me
Well, if you just mean the kind of... acceptance needed for people to take you seriously and not yell at how much your fic sucks and you should read that Advice for Aspiring Authors thread, what you must do is more or less have good grammar and be capable of writing something a couple of pages in length. And probably have a bunch of description. Nobody criticizes people who can write many paragraphs of description about each particular blade of grass in the field your character happens to be walking through.

Me, I've just been here for a long time, since before things really got this way. And when they did get this way, I was already a mod so nobody dared say anything to me anyway. Of course, I have been writing stuff that's a couple of pages long with decent grammar since before I came here. If I weren't a mod, people would probably jump all over my description. Oh, wait, they do. Just not as much.

Wow, I'm being more of a cynic than usual, aren't I?
 

Kiyohime

Well-Known Member
I didn't have a problem being integrated into this community when I first joined 2 years ago (crap, has it been that long? o.o;;) because I gave out honest reviews and posted a lot of stories until people started to notice...it's really all about working hard, I think. Hard work reaps benefits.
 

Freawaru

Well-Known Member
Dragonfree said:
Nobody criticizes people who can write many paragraphs of description about each particular blade of grass in the field your character happens to be walking through.

I would. BORING! URPLE! NOT NECESSARY! CUT IT! :D Yeah yeah, I know what you mean...

This question feels a bit like "how do you become cool?" Of course the answer is "by not caring too much whether you're cool or not"... I mean, it's not a case of

1) Write a fanfic
2) ???
3) Profit!!!

I'm reminded of this time, MANY years ago, when I posted on FFN and could expect to get maybe 20-30 reviews per fic, which was pretty damn good in the early days. This girl I was friends with asked "How do you get popular on FFN?" But she didn't mean my 20-30 reviews, she meant the people who get 200+ and all variations of "good story i liked it".

I said, if you want to write well, write. If you want to be popular on the internets, write Harry Potter porn and get a livejournal.

My advice still stands.
 

Elemental Charizam

Sudden Genre Shift
Some people post in worse fics because they genuinely want to help, and helping a bad fic is much easier than helping a good fic. Though I agree, some other people do post in worse fics because they like flaming people.

Recognition here is just like recognition in most other places; some people get it very fast (Kiyohime a good example of this), and some build it up more slowly, like Dilasc. There seems to be an element of luck involved, but if you write something very popular or very good then there's much more chance of getting there. Alternatively you can just go over to the shippers fanfic section, get mod permission and write an NC - 17 fic shipping any of the main anime characters.
 

Astinus

Well-Known Member
And that's really one of the reasons that I stay out of the Shipping section. That, and also the fact that I can't handle romance, as the story lines all come out to be the same, or near to it.

I'm somewhat well-known here. But, check my profile. No threads started, which means that I never posted a story. (Or a welcome thread. I was too chicken.) But, I've become part of this 'group" because I gave decent reviews. And as Saffire Persian and I were talking one night, we found out that neither one of us has every really strayed out of this forum. It's because we just fit in here.

It's really difficult to just "report" the bad fics, because - if the report even goes through - then only those three moderators that we have for this section will check it out. It's easy to determine what spam or a bad thread is out there, but...

Anyhow, as Dragonfree said(posted), to be taken "seriously", you should follow these steps: good grammar, good story, perseverance. Good grammar makes it appear that you yourself take your story seriously. A good story will make you stand out. And perseverance will make people see that you are a diligent worker and want to improve.

Or you could just send PMs out to people. That always works.
 
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