Quotas and Affirmative Action Discussion Thread

[bobjr]

Isn't that why you would run ANOVA tests since the sample sizes are different? Like that's what they're designed for, so you don't have people go "Well the sample sizes aren't equal" in situations where you can't really force an equal sample size.

But I would also love to hear your solution for these problems outside of a vague "We need to encourage women", because that really does nothing but push things in a "Well this would be nice but if things don't turn out that way then oh well" way. You can hire more women and then have programs that help them catch up as the societal issues are dealt with. If you go strictly on merit then the group with the advantage will just keep that advantage since they already have the tools.

 

[Pikachu52]

From the author of the study:

The study did not address reasons underpinning the persistent gap. There could be several reasons, Dr. Muench said: Men may be better negotiators, for instance, or perhaps women more often leave the work force to raise children. Women may have a tougher time getting promoted, she said.

Peter McMenamin, a health economist and a spokesman for the American Nurses Association, commended the study. “The folks who did the study are well qualified and they have lots of data,” he said. “But my main hesitance in terms of statistics is they have fewer men.”

Only 7 to 10 percent of nurses are male, he acknowledged. But with a smaller sample, he said, “the reliability of the answers is less robust.”

“You can’t say this is all a statistical fluke,” he added. “It’s not. But there are different things that could explain some of this challenge.”

https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/well/2015/03/24/stubborn-pay-gap-is-found-in-nursing/?referer=

When you factor in every single thing, the difference will probably be very small.

Simply because the factors contributing to the pay gap may not reflect direct sexist discrimination (as in conscious unequal treatment) there is no reason to believe they are not in fact rooted in sexist or at least highly gendered social expectations and structures. In fact all three reasons Dr. Muench has suggested could contribute reflect a level of sexism.

• In the case of leaving work to raise children two issues are rasied - firstly, is it reasonble for society to ever force a person to choose between a career and a family. Second the fact that women overwhemling are the ones to have to take time off work to care for children is gendered attitudes towards parental and family roles that assign homemaking roles to women. If society were truly equal in this regard we would expect parental roles to be shared between men and women.
• In relation to negotiation of pay, there is research that suggets that employers tend to penalize women more than men when they negoitate pay, which may discourage women from doing so.
• It's difficult to see how having a tougher time of getting promoted can reflect anything than sexists attitudes

In which case it can be argued there is a need for policies that help to overcome these factors - paid family leave could help ensure people are not penalised for taking time off for family reasons. Affirmative Action programs could be useful here in ensuring women get promotions.

What seems to be getting lost in the discussion over the wage gap, and somebody please correct me if I perceive this incorrectly, is that the fundamental moral issue is that one half of the population control significantly less of the wealth than the other half . This is bad because not only because it means women are at greater risk of being impoverished, but also because, at least in the US thanks to citizens united, money buys political influence. Of course that's oblivious true of racial wealth gaps and the growth of wealth inequality generally too.

 

[snorlax512]

Because there is absolutely no need for the gap to be zero.

Part of it is societal pressure, and that is what we need to fix (women who want to be engineers but are discouraged from doing so), but part of it is also men and women make different choices.

If they want to study psychology, so be it. There is no reason to force them from doing what they want just to close some arbitrary statistic of median wage. Any women has exactly the same opportunity to become rich as a man.

There is no reason to give Jane the job over Jack simply because Mary chose to be a counselling psychologist and pulled down the median wage. That is unfair af.

I think you guys are thinking about money as the sole issue. Women enjoy spending time with their kids, and usually are willing to make less to live a more balanced life. That's probably why women in general are happier than men.

@Pikachu: the pay raise is (probably) due to men being more aggressive and demanding. Employers want to pay people the least.

People won't be penalized, but if they work less hours (and have a less flexible schedule) you are less likely to be promoted. You can't change that.

 

[chess-z]

snorlax im about to blow your goddamn mind, women and men make different choices because of societal pressure

EDIT: the people in the jontron subreddit have more a more nuanced and informed insight into race and sexism than snorlax does

 

[snorlax512]

Also because of innate differences. Women are more attached to their offspring, this is a fact, and unfortunately it doesn't care about your feelings.

If you want absolute equality, you will have to undo thousands of years of evolution.

 

[chess-z]

snorlax you have zero idea where the line between societal and biological factors are so youre assuming that its all biological, then backing up your claim with an appeal to ignorance

 

[snorlax512]

https://goo.gl/images/cv5gGM

 

[chess-z]

either provide sources that clearly show that women are biologically predisposed to parenthood or stop linking weak image macros

 

[lemoncatpower]

Also because of innate differences. Women are more attached to their offspring, this is a fact, and unfortunately it doesn't care about your feelings.

If you want absolute equality, you will have to undo thousands of years of evolution.

I've heard of plenty of shitty mothers and mothers who abandon children, so I don't think that's true..

Do you live in the bush and collect berries and hunt deer or something? What evolution gave us is barely relevant now a days, people have the choice to do whatever they want, but still pressure from people like you saying "women do better as this and this" makes women think "oh I should do this and this since I'll be inherently good at this and this so I won't bother with this and this." I just don't think you realize at all what your actions do to others in this world, or you just don't give a **** about other people. Not sure what one it is, it's always hard to figure it out with people like you I am not really gonna argue anymore, but do you seriously think you're a good person after spouting all this stuff? How do you sleep at night thinking you're born better than everyone else? It's really unfathomable actually that some people are like that in this world.

 

[snorlax512]

Women develop a prenatal attachment with the developing foetus even before birth: http://www.mattes.de/buecher/praenatale_psychologie/PP_PDF/PP_20_1-2_Doan_Zimerman.pdf

During childbirth, women release a hormone called oxytocin, which contributes to forming a unique maternal bond with the baby. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/275795.php

This isn't to say men don't, but women tend to have a larger "maternal instinct" since they invested nine months in taking care of the foetus, giving it nutrients and going through excruciating pain to give birth. It makes sense that they probably feel a greater subconscious need to care for their wellbeing.

Research also shows that when women control a larger share of household income, their spending tends to benefit children more. (http://siteresources.worldbank.org/...583/7786210-1315936222006/Complete-Report.pdf - go to page 5)

This explains the evolutionary basis behind why this is the case. http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~schaller/308Readings/Bjorklund1999.pdf

 

[chess-z]

yeah sure thats sound science, but how does that play in? like in what way does that prove that women arent suited for stem (it doesnt)

 

[U.N. Owen]

yeah sure thats sound science, but how does that play in? like in what way does that prove that women arent suited for stem (it doesnt)

They aren't suited for STEM if they don't want to pursue that field. It's simple. I'm not suited for undersea welding because I don't want to do that job nor did I learn the skills for it. It's all a matter of wanting the job and pursing the skills rather than wanting the job and not pursing the skills.

 

[bobjr]

In a lot of these fields though part of the reason comes from a toxic environment where they're treated like they only got the job because they were a woman instead of on merit though.

 

[chess-z]

They aren't suited for STEM if they don't want to pursue that field. It's simple. I'm not suited for undersea welding because I don't want to do that job nor did I learn the skills for it. It's all a matter of wanting the job and pursing the skills rather than wanting the job and not pursing the skills.

Well yeah. But I was talking about snorlax's "evidence".

 

[snorlax512]

Well yeah. But I was talking about snorlax's "evidence".

That was a potential reason as to why women prefer to spend more time with their children and live a more balanced life.

The disparity in STEM fields could be partly due to men and women excelling in different areas of intelligence.

Men have been performing better in spatial awareness tasks than women for decades, but there are a couple of reasons why this is not purely social or cultural norms.

1) We see this happening amongst infants. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081209100948.htm

2) We can see this in rats. Male rats perform better at spatial tasks than female rats. Castrating the males makes them perform worse, while administering estradiol to females makes them better. http://www.safar.pitt.edu/archive/content/grant/jc/2006/0203 Fink.pdf

3) This is evident in humans as well. We can actually observe an increase in visuospatial ability in women after administering dosages of testosterone. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453003000891

as well as an increase in activity in the medial temporal lobe. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166432815302680

We could go on about every field, but the truth is men and women may simply enjoy different things.

I never hear about any complaints of why women are underrepresented in risky fields. 94% of workplace deaths are men. Let's put more women in those fields so that we die equally!
https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/cwc/fewer-women-than-men-die-of-work-related-injuries-data-show.pdf

Or drafts in war. Where is the equal representation in that? God I hate this system that oppresses women. All these cis white males.

In a lot of these fields though part of the reason comes from a toxic environment where they're treated like they only got the job because they were a woman instead of on merit though.

Another reason why affirmative action sucks.

 

[bobjr]

Why is that a slight against AA? If anything that's a thing for it, so we can help get rid of these negative stereotypes.

 

[U.N. Owen]

Why is that a slight against AA? If anything that's a thing for it, so we can help get rid of these negative stereotypes.

Maybe I've missed something, but it sounds like you want to use affirmative action, a system which factors race and gender in the hiring process, to combat negative stereotypes about people only getting jobs because race and gender are in the hiring process. Wouldn't that enforce the stereotypes rather than harm them?

 

[chess-z]

Maybe I've missed something, but it sounds like you want to use affirmative action, a system which factors race and gender in the hiring process, to combat negative stereotypes about people only getting jobs because race and gender are in the hiring process. Wouldn't that enforce the stereotypes rather than harm them?

How so? I think it's better than doing nothing at all because of the aforementioned systematic biases.

 

[snorlax512]

lol no one understands that these stereotypes are because of affirmative action.

 

[bobjr]

Men keeping women below them socially has been a thing for millennium.