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Rain without Politoed? IMPOSSIBRU!!!

Discussion in 'Older Gen RMT' started by loco1234, Mar 10, 2013.

  1. loco1234


    Not at all my friends! In fact, Politoed-less OU Rain has a distinct advantage over Drizzle teams: Swift Swim. None of the other weathers have a reason to make a team without their inducers. Sun? Ninetales is meh, yeah, but Sun is allowed to use Chlorophyll with permanent sun and Harvest basically requires it, sorta like Hydration and permanent rain. Sand? Sand Rush is legal with Sand Stream (Excadrill isn't legal in OU but Sand Rush is). Sand Force, same thing. Sand Veil is banned regardless. And Sand's inducers are pretty solid anyway, no reason to worry there. Hail? Nah. Blizzard is legal with Snow Warning, Ice Body is legal with Snow Warning, Snow Cloak is banned either way. I don't even think Hail has its own prolonging item like the others do. Further, this team wrecks Sun with the right prediction. It doesn't even need the rain to take out Ninetales - Kingdra's done that every time I've come up against one. Rain? LOL, thanks for doing my work for me! Sand? If it's T-Tar I run into some issues but Hippowdon's pretty manageable. Hail? Haven't fought one yet, but I don't imagine it'd be all that tough between Kabutops and Scizor, far less so one my Rain becomes the only weather factor. Kingdra or Kabutops can outright sweep most Hail teams I've seen in the past, or at the very least severely dent them. Stallrein and Tentacruel can probably take a hit or two unboosted.

    Anyway, that was getting kinda rambly so on to the team! The sets were ripped from the importable file so Spd, SDef and SAtk are used over Spe, SpD and SpA, but y'all can read it fine, I know.

    At a glance:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    Tornadus (M) @ Damp Rock
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - Rain Dance
    - U-turn
    - Taunt
    - Hurricane

    I typically lead with the genie here. Tornadus makes a pretty good lead for a Damp Rock rain team for a couple of reasons. It has access to Prankster, meaning my Rain Dance gets the drop on most opposing leads, or my Taunt if need be. It also gets STAB Hurricane and a monster SpA stat to use it with, meaning it can abuse the rain it sets as well. Finally, I have U-Turn here to get Tornadus out, scout the switch and bring in the appropriate Pokemon, preferably Kingdra or Kabutops. Tornadus is something I really want to keep alive against weather teams because its Rain Dance is Prankster-backed, which means I can count on Tornadus to get it off against almost anything and Tornadus outspeeds the other Pranksters you often see in OU, Whimsicott and Sableye, which I'd Taunt anyway.


    Jirachi @ Damp Rock
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Rain Dance
    - Stealth Rock
    - Thunder
    - Iron Head

    Jirachi is my second Rain setter and hazard carrier. The idea is that it's got some reasonable bulk to it and can probably come in more than once in a game. So it also gets the important job of hazard setting. Thunder and Iron Head troll like nothing else can and even when I don't go paraflinch Thunder hits hard and the 60% paralysis helps a lot. It deals nicely with HydraRest Vaporeon, against which I ony had Thundurus before. Iron Head gets STAB and isn't really something they expect after seeing Thunder. The EVs used to be physically-inclined but after removing Espeon I've gone the standard SDef route here.


    Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Nasty Plot
    - Thunderbolt
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    At mcdanger and Atrocious's suggestion, I canned Espeon for this behemoth. The Electric immunity (and 25% recovery) is really nice (and the recovery can offset LO recoil, to a degree). Main reason for Thunderbolt is that after Nasty Plot, I've got 5 turns tops of rain to play with and I don't want to be missing out on my STAB move afterwards. Nor do I want to switch Thundy out and lose my Nasty Plots. Also, with Thunder my only real chance of beating Ninetales with this is to let Focus Miss rip and pray it hits, but with Thunderbolt it's a 2HKO, OHKO after a Plot boost. Otherwise, Ninetales can switch in and pretty much force me out. However, using Thunderbolt and Nasty Plot makes eliminating Ninetales much easier - I lead Tornadus, my opponent leads Tales. I use Rain Dance, then follow it with Taunt. Then I U-Turn out for a win-win situation. Thundurus comes in and scares him into changing the weather, fearing Thunder. Nasty Plot on the switch, positive-natured Base 101 outspeeds all non-Scarfed Tales, and +2 LO Thunderbolt OHKOs. This has happened way too many times. This isn't meant to abuse Rain. It's here to absorb Electric moves for my sweepers and punch its own holes in my opponent's team. Thunderbolt is STAB and my main attack. Backed by LO and positive-natured Base 145 SAtk I don't really even need Thunder's power. Focus Miss Blast is here for Steels like Ferrothorn and HP Ice hits opposing Dragons and Gliscor. It's also very nice for Grass-types.


    Kingdra @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Rain Dance
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Draco Meteor

    This was another suggestion from mcdanger. Originally, I had a physical DD Kingdra here and while it was an absolute monster, this has been better. It can set its own Rain for 4 turns of fun. It packs even more power than the physical set I had. It has better coverage. And there is no downside, nothing the old set did better. Having Kingdra set its own Rain (and being Special) meant that there was a lot less Ninetales could do to it (although before Ninetales checked at best, it needed Will-O-Wisp to do so. All other variants lost to DD Kingdra without even one boost. The thing is, not even Will-O-Wisp stops this set and it hits Ninetales back even harder). Hydro Pump is a tad unreliable, but the sheer power it brings to the table is unrivaled. The equivalent of 240 Base Power after STAB and the Rain, and that doesn't even account for Max. SAtk or Life Orb. Or type modifiers. That's obscene. Ice Beam destroys Dragons and Gliscor. Draco Meteor is mainly used when I just want the quick kill without dropping Rain, or when I face Gastrodon. The only problem is I pretty much have to switch after using Draco Meteor, which was the one thing DD Kingdra had over this - the ability to fire one off and stay in. Nonetheless, this has been fantastic, thanks mcdanger!


    Kabutops @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Stone Edge
    - Low Kick

    Another suggestion from mcdanger here, but I found Rapid Spin was getting next to no use, whereas Swords Dance was leading to sweeps. so I went back to Dance. Anyway, Waterfall gets double STAB with the rain up and pretty much murders anything that doesn't resist it, especially at +2. Stone Edge wrecks quite a bit as well and serves as a secondary (if unreliable) STAB. Low Kick is here for the Steels mostly, although with Rain up I generally use Waterfall. Without Rain, Low Kick. Unless there's a secondary resistance to one, in which case I use the other.


    Scizor @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - U-turn
    - Superpower
    - Pursuit

    Finally, CB TechniScizor is something we all know and love/hate. It's saved me in a fair few tight spots. Most of you probably already know exactly what this beast does, but I'm going to go over it briefly anyway. Bullet Punch gets STAB and a Technician boost, effectively raising its Base Power to 90. Stronger than Extremespeed. Now factor in the Band-boosted Atk stat and you have a very dangerous move. U-Turn gets good synergy with Choice items in general, grants Switch initiative and gets me around Magnezone if I catch it on said switch. Superpower provides another means of wrecking Steels, although again Ferrothorn is quite problematic. Pursuit is great for trapping and KOing things, like opposing Espeon and the Latis.

    I've been playing Rain since the very start of BW. To give you an idea of how long ago that was, there was a time when Hydration Swanna was used in OU. I used it. It messed things up because no one knew how exactly to handle Hydration/Rest, having never seen it in OU before. Only Manaphy and Phione had that combination back in DPPT, and let's face it, Phione sucks. That is the only reason it actually worked though, and now Swanna is stuck in the depths of NU. If it showed its face in OU today, it would be pretty handily destroyed. In all that time, I have never once tried a Rain team like this. Never once used one without a Politoed. But I was pretty impressed with its performance and now I wonder if I'll actually use the little toad again, given that this team counters rather well about a third of the OU ladder, the third that uses more or less the same Drizzle team, and does pretty well against the rest too.

    Some (er... One, only one I have for the new team atm) replays before I sign off on this:

    This is what we do to Sun
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  2. Rosez66

    Rosez66 Ace trainer

    Have you considered jolteon over espeon. Sure it can't reflect back entry hazards bu it does grant an electric immunity and have STAB thunder which lays down the hurt. However I see the electric being a problem with no pokemon being outright resistant to it and seonly takin neutral damage. Again this may rubbish but give it a go
  3. loco1234


    I'll give Jolteon a look, STAB Thunder can be pretty cool for sure. In terms of resistance it isn't as big a deal as I thought it would be but I do agree that Jolteon seems better here. Although Magic Bounce is my only means of keeping Hazards away they haven't been a big enough problem to warrant its use.

    I'll give Jolteon a shot, thanks!
  4. McDanger

    McDanger This is my design

    jolteons outclassed by thunderus.

    Sun teams shut your team down because as soon as rain dance goes up, ninetales comes in and forces out your rain sweeper, especially as all your rain inducers cant really do anything to ninetales as hurricane has 50%, leaving espeon as the only inducer that can beat tales. I would give kingdra rain dance > dragon dance to beat tales and prevent the wasted turns in setting up rain, and then switching. I would change his moves to ice beam, surf/hydro pump, draco meteor as it lets him hit very hard, very quick, this also puts pressure on ninetales as it would be KOed if it comes in. This would let pressure off jirachi to set up rain, as i feel hes trying to do to much at one time. This way you can run calm mind jirachi which would give a solid late game threat if the swift swimmers are to weak to come in again, or do a lot of damage. Kabutops would work nice on this team over ludicolo as it will spin away hazards so tornadus can keep coming in if you mispredicted with espeon, while firing of stone edge, waterfall, and low kicks, allowing it to check sun teams as long as rain stays up, as well as threat ttar, and most sand mons
  5. loco1234


    Max. SpA, Specs Ninetales does 56.4% - 66.3% to Kingdra with Solarbeam in the Sun. My Kingdra does 93.4% - 110.2% to the standard Lure set with Outrage. The same Specs Ninetales set that can do 66.3% Max with Solarbeam (Fire Blast is a 3HKO even in Sun for Specs) takes 133.1 - 157.49% from 252 Atk positive-natured Kingdra's Outrage, and 252-SpA non-Specs or Orb Ninetales does... 38.14 - 45.01%.

    I think I missed where Ninetales forces me out. Bar WoW there isn't a whole lot it can do, but I don't really want to switch to a Special set because at that point my only physical presence is Scizor. I did look at Rain Dance over Dragon Dance, I'll certainly try it out. Kabutops is something else I wanted to try, and if it works out over Ludicolo I'll switch Kingdra to Special. I like the possibility of being able to use CM Rachi, because as you mentioned Rachi is kinda trying to do too much here.

    I'll give these changes a try, thanks!
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  6. Atrocious

    Atrocious Well-Known Member

    I don't really see Espeon's use here that much. Sure it can reflect back hazards but that's really about it. Rain especially abusing SS is generally an up-tempo offensive style and 3 weather inducers sound a bit much. Your battles will tend to not last 24+ turns and if they do, you're probably doing it wrong. Jirachi is more than capable of setting rain more then once a match. Here, I'd suggest something like Agility Thundurus-T which can serve as your Electric Resist and poses a great offensive threat for your opponent to surely worry about. I'd also try Shell Smash Gorebyss as I've used it to success before. At +2/ and basically +4 Speed under rain, nothing will outspeed you and you hit extremely hard with Surf/Hydro Pump to basically everything that isn't immune which is where coverage options come in HP Grass, etc.
  7. loco1234


    Right, Kabutops has proven its worth for sure... My first 3 matches after making my changes it swept 6-0, 4-0 and 5-0.

    Updated! Lotta changes there. Thanks everyone!
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  8. Rosez66

    Rosez66 Ace trainer

    I really like the look of this team now. Tomorrow I will give it a go on PO, if that's alright an droit back however I feel you may need rapid spin support now with two flying types, that is why I suggested jolteon, perhaps with air balloon. So maybe perhaps rapid spin on kabutops, although that would potentially ruin him. Just something to consider. But I will try it out with jolteon instead of thundurus
  9. loco1234


    Yeah, definitely, use it all you want. Note that I'm using it on Showdown though, which follows Smogon-standard OU. PO, I think, still allows Genesect. Their OU is slightly different, in other words.

    Rocks haven't been a huge problem (although I've played a whopping 6 matches with this team, haven't lost yet but it is mostly the bad part of the Showdown ladder). I'd like Rapid Spin, but I'm not sure if SD is better for Kabutops.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
  10. SkyDriver

    SkyDriver Hiding in the grass

    You can easily use RS > SD on Tops. LO + Rain + STAB is crazy strong already, did 80% to a Mewtwo! OU is less bulky than that, so only walls could be a problem, but you can break tgem with Scizor and Thundy.
  11. loco1234


    Alright, so Rapid Spin over SD on Kabutops.

    The biggest problem I've run into lately is HydraRest Vaporeon since once Thundurus-T falls it destroys me. Kabutops is the only thing I have that can deal with it and it needs a boost AND for Stone Edge to hit to do so. Vaporeon's Scald is a comfortable 2HKO though, and literally nothing else I have bar Thundurus can do squat to it. And removing SD for Rapid Spin means my only answer to Vaporeon is Thundurus-T, which isn't the sturdiest thing in the world.

    Also, Agility hasn't actually been used that much... I outspeed most of what I need Thundurus to beat anyway. I'm thinking of running a Timid Nasty Plot set instead, thoughts? (Mainly because I find Thunderbolt just misses out on the Ninetales OHKO, which I'd really like to be able to get without relying on 50% accuracy Thunder, and I outspeed all variants (Trolly Base 101 Spe FTW!), and predicting the switch to Tales is obscenely easy)
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
  12. Gamefreak

    Gamefreak Well-Known Member

    Use Thunder on Jirachi. You have Rain which can boost it to 100% accuracy. Thunder also hits water pokemon and skarmory.
  13. loco1234


    That would give me a pretty good way of dealing with Vaporeon too. I'll definitely give it a try.
  14. Atrocious

    Atrocious Well-Known Member

    Yeah, when I realize half your team has a way to deal with speedy threats, NP sounds better than Agility for late-game or just punching holes for Kabutops.

    I do like SD over Rapid Spin and don't really know why RS > SD as the offensive pressure basically forces them to try to deal with the threats immediately. You have a priority taunt user so it's not like thy can setup rocks that easily either and if they did for some reason throw up rocks instead of reacting to the situation, you could probably end the game at +2 instead of trying to spin them away. Just my two cents, and if I'm right, still don't think you can power past things like Vappy, Jellicent, Celebi and others without that +2 boost.
  15. loco1234


    Losing out on that power was a big blow, yeah. I've been testing RS and... haven't used it at all, really... XD I'm probably going to be going back to Swords Dance as a way to break through more things and just destroy everything. But I don't think I'll be able to actually make the change on Showdown 'till Thursday short of remaking the team entirely on this PC (not that that's a problem or anything though, takes like 5 minutes)

    Nasty Plot keeps looking better and better with each Ninetales that switches in thinking it can screw my Thunder though. Keeping Agility can outspeed the occasional ScarfMence if Kingdra's down but Nasty Plot seems overall better. I'll be testing that as well.

    EDIT: Would y'all put Thunder over Iron Head or Thunder Wave? With a 60% Para chance, I feel like using it over T-Wave would be risky but doable and still leaves me with Paraflinch, but it does also remove completely reliable paralysis.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  16. Atrocious

    Atrocious Well-Known Member

    Thunder gives you a weapon against HydraRest Vappy which you've said gives you problems.
  17. loco1234


    Yeah, but over T-wave or Iron head? Both have advantages really, retaining paraflinch at the cost of completely-reliable paralysis or forgoing my Flinch chance (and STAB) for Thunder's better coverage and keeping T-Wave for when I really need to paralyze something? I'm leaning towards replacing T-Wave, but I'd like other input there too.
  18. Manectrifier

    Manectrifier AKA Treecko

    Use Thunder over Twave. In two hits you'll almost always have a paralysis, and even if you don't, it doesn't really matter because with a prankster user, a priority user and two swift swimmers I can't imagine you having trouble outspeeding pokes. Thunder is a reliable method to get rid of Vaporeon and other bulky waters such as subtoxic Tentacruel.

    And btw I really like this team! More people should run toedless rain. It seems like your team can sweep through unprepared teams easily with Kingdra, Thundurus-T and Kabutops.

    Oh, and I agree with SD>RS on Kabutops. In rain, Kabutops is meant to be an attacker, and as you said you won't use RS often as an attacking move is almost always a better option. And, when your opponents see Kabutops in Team Preview, they'll already hesitate to put up 3 layers of spikes, just because of the possibility for Kabutops to carry RS.

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