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Rank the leagues

Discussion in 'Animé Polls' started by LilligantLewis, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. Epicocity

    Epicocity Well-Known Member

    Why should it be longer, though? Is it really worth it to see meaningless battles that do nothing except make us question how Ash could win the finals, completely destroying any vestiges of tension left?
  2. Kuzehiko

    Kuzehiko Well-Known Member

    1.Sinnoh League
    2.Johto League
    3.Kalos League
    4.Hoenn League
    5.Unova League
    5.Indigo League

    Sinnoh league ranks first for the same reasons stated above. Kalos league would have ranked higher hadn't it been rushed and Johto league was epic imo. It was the 2nd league I got to enjoy the most.
  3. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    The league is the most important moment of a saga. We wait three years for it, and what do they give us? 7-8 episodes? Really? It should be at least 10 episodes. If they will make Ash lose, then they should at least make up for this by giving us a good league.

    This is the problem with this anime. Important arcs are much shorter than they really should be. They waste a bunch of episodes with useless fillers over improving the plot.
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  4. Epicocity

    Epicocity Well-Known Member

    Why, though? Why should it be 10 episodes? For more battles? What's the point if those battles are meaningless and mean nothing except a forward progression that's obviously going to happen whether we see it or not?

    Why should we see an episode of Ash struggling with a first round opponent? That would only lead us to question how he could win the finals. He's troubled by the scrubs yet he can take the title? Unconvincing.

    On the other side, why should we see an episode of Ash steamrolling the opponent? Over and over, that gets boring, and is pointless.

    I think Gigguk put it best in his video on My Hero Academia, that the battles in the Sports Festival work best because they're focused on the characters, and giving those characters meaning for them. That's what a tournament arc should really do. More episodes just for more battles dilutes both the overall quality and the overall story for something superficial at best.
    maartjeverhoef and Shadao like this.
  5. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    Seeing Ash and Paul destroy early round opponents or heck even Barry and Conway would have made the Sinnoh League even better.This never hurt the Hoenn League and plus the Sinnoh League's battles are better in quality.Seeing Ash use Bulbasaur/Kingler/Glalie and Paul use Hariyama/Torterra/Honchkrow would only make the Sinnoh League that much better.
    LilligantLewis and GarchompChain like this.
  6. Lord Starfish

    Lord Starfish Fond of owls

    Thing is, an entirely battle-focused arc that's longer than ten episodes... Even for this series, I'm pretty sure that would, at the very least, result in a massive drop in animation quality around it, considering just how much manpower, time and money it would take to pull that off. Kalos had their 7-episode League, with noticable lulls in the action within said League, and followed it up immediately with the Team Flare climax which didn't have anywhere near the same level of polished animation because, well, at the time those episodes were being made all the big animators were still busy with the League episodes. Like, we all remember the last two rounds of the Kalos League and the spectacular battles we saw there... And then we get the Mega Gyarados battle shortly after which, if I recall correctly, was basically just a long string of OHKOs before our heroes suddenly won? (Actually I can't even recall how that battle ended, all I remember is that Gyarados was basically just floating in one place and brushing off everything that went up against it like it was nothing.)

    Granted, I guess a few weeks of low-effort animated episodes before and after the League could be considered a fair tradeoff for getting a spectacularly animated, lengthy climax to the series' main quest? Not that I expect this to happen in this particular series.
  7. GarchompChain

    GarchompChain Well-Known Member

    League battles, by definition, are not meaningless. I don't have to see all battles, but Kalos just showed 2.

    You make it extreme by comparing steamrolling and struggling. There is something inbetween you know.

    I want to see more battles to see more of Ash's pokemon shine. Maybe not struggle with everyone, but it's ok to have difficulty with other trainers who earned 8 badges.

    You make it sound like Ash faces the weaker trainers in the first round automatically.. The draw is completely random you know.
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  8. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    1.Paul vs Ash (Sinnoh League)

    2.Ash vs Katie (Hoenn League)

    3.Ash vs Conway (Sinnoh League)

    4.Ash vs Tyson (Hoenn League)

    5.Ash vs Alain (Kalos League)

    6.Ash vs Harrison (Johto League)

    7.Ash vs Sawyer (Kalos League)

    8.Ash vs Gary (Johto League)

    9.Ash vs Stephan (Unova League)

    10.Paul vs Barry (Sinnoh League)

    11.Ash vs Jackson (Johto League)

    12.Ash vs Morrison (Hoenn League)

    13.Ash vs Nando (Sinnoh League)

    14.Ash vs Clark (Hoenn League)

    15.Ash vs Dominick (Hoenn League)

    16.Sawyer vs Tierno (Kalos League)

    17.Cameron vs Bianca (Unova League)

    18.Morrison vs Gavin (Hoenn League)

    19.Ash vs Macy (Johto League)

    20.Ash vs Tobias (Sinnoh League)

    21.Ash vs Cameron (Unova League)

    22.Ash vs Trip (Unova League)

    23.Alain vs Trevor (Kalos League)

    24.Ash vs Mandi (Kanto League)

    25.Ash vs Ritchie (Kanto League)

    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  9. Shadao

    Shadao Well-Known Member

    Battles are also quite taxing to animate. Especially with the standard of XY where battles are more than just still images clashing each other compared to the previous series.

    You may recall that DP also had backlash from the fans when it started skipping certain League battles featuring Ash's Pokémon. The complaints were that we don't get see much of reserves in action that we were promised at the beginning. It's no coincidence that the battles were skipped/abridged in a League that has the longest battle between Ash and his rival.

    XY also had the burden of doing a Team Flare finale arc immediately after the Kalos League. Since the stakes are much higher and there's no time for the animators to breathe, something had to be cut. And those were the preliminary battles. Because let's face it, there's only two legit rivals to Ash: Sawyer and Alain. And this time, Ash is making it all the way to the top. From a director's standpoint, it is far more efficient to cut out the League filler and instead focus all on character and story.

    Remember, time is limited and animators are not robots. The Kalos League, in my opinion, made the right choice by skipping the perlimary tension and just focus on Ash's biggest opponents. We're not competing for 8th place, we're going for the final League match.
  10. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    1.Paul vs Ash (Sinnoh League)
    2.Ash vs Katie (Hoenn League)

    These 2 spots are irreplaceable,the strategies in those battles were absolutely amazing.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  11. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humanity's greatest soldier

    Ash vs sawyer and ash vs alain anyday are far better than ash vs katie match. Ash greninja vs Mega sceptile ending even surpasses infernape vs electivire match .
    As h vs sawyer had different strtegies as well. Then again you are pissed off that both alain and sawyer had megas and asurpasses your favourite paul.
  12. GarchompChain

    GarchompChain Well-Known Member

    Come one dude. Calling a top 8 battle a preliminary is really stretching it.

    You do make a valid point about the animation. I would have preferred a less prominent Flare arc then, because I like leagues. The writers and/or animators chose otherwise. That's their right. (Though they could have at least make Ash win this one.)
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  13. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    Because it's the climax of the entire series. It's completely ridiculous wait years for a league to watch 7-8 episodes and Ash lose.

    Just because someone is defeated in the first round does not mean that he is weak, it just means that the opponent was stronger. The matches are totally random. Do you forgot that everyone in the league got 8 badges?
    Well, I don't really care about animation so much. Not all battles need to be a masterpiece, they should save the great animation for the important ones.
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  14. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    I agree with @Jeal and @GarchompChain

    @Epicocity @Shadao @Lord Starfish I'm not talking about logistics. I understand that the animation quality would drop if they had that many battles (although for me personally, I probably wouldn't mind that much) and I do understand that that's why they likely won't ever do that. That doesn't make it any less disappointing for me or make me like those leagues any more.

    Here are my multiple reasons/examples for wanting leagues to be longer if Ash makes it further into the league.

    1) What round they say Ash is in just feels totally random when they skip so many battles. At the beginning of the second episode of the Kalos League they tell the audience Ash is already in the semifinals. What??? The semifinals are the furthest Ash has made it before, and only once before, and he had to get through an excruciating 3-episode battle against his biggest rival just to get to the semifinals. It seemed really HARD to obtain back in Sinnoh. Here, it's handed to him on a silver platter at the beginning of just the second episode of the league. When I say it feels random, I mean that they could just as easily have told the audience, "Ash is in the top 16" or "Ash is in the quarterfinals" and it would have made no difference. If it was the Top 16, then the Sawyer battle would have been Top 16 and the Alain battle would have been a quarterfinal, and if it was a quarterfinal, then the Sawyer battle would have been a quarterfinal and the Alain battle would have been a semifinal. What difference does it make in the end? They just arbitrarily chose the semifinals as the round Ash was in. Without showing all the rounds before, it doesn't feel to the audience that Ash is really in such a late round of the tournament. If it feels that way to you, fine; it certainly doesn't feel that way to me.

    2) Epicocity your point that if Ash is making it deep in a league it means he's steamrolling opponents is just straight up invalid. As Jeal said the draw is random, meaning that 1v2 could happen in the first round for all we know, and even if there was a seeding format, such that the best are pitted against the worst in the early rounds, that doesn't necessarily always mean they will steamroll. There are numerous real life sports examples where teams struggle in an early round, but it doesn't mean they suck or end up doing poorly in the overall tournament. Just this past spring, the Cleveland Cavaliers struggled and had to go all the way to Game 7 against the Indiana Pacers, a much less worthy opponent, in the first round, but they went on to make it all the way to the NBA Finals. It's actually a perfect example for this because Ash lost in the finals just like them. Struggling in an early round, in fact, if done right, could be a great character arc moment, for those of you who seem to care less about the battles than I do. If Ash shows up to a league hot and overconfident, as he kind of did when he told the camera he'd win in XY&Z32 imo, a well-written episode could easily have him struggle in the first round because of that overconfidence, barely win, and then have to come to terms with his idiocy and regroup for the next round, or something like that. In essence, what I'm trying to say in this paragraph is that for multiple reasons, there's no good reason to assume that everybody is being steamrolled just because they're an early round opponent.

    3) Good battles that I would like to see are straight-up skipped. A perfect example is Ash vs. Astrid as Hawlucha beats Mega Absol which isn't even treated like a big deal when it should be. Not only would I have liked to see the whole battle, but in this specific example, it also serves as an example of something else we don't get enough of in leagues which is Ash battling girls. I hope that you can agree, Epicocity, that even though you think it seems unrealistic for Ash to make it to the final and almost win if he's struggling in earlier rounds, that there would be nothing wrong with an exciting battle in the quarterfinals that comes down the final Pokémon, and it could still be realistic for Ash to make the final after coming close to losing against a good trainer in the quarterfinals.

    4) There's only one example of this, so unlike a lot of my other complaints that have multiple leagues as evidence, this point only has the Kalos League as evidence, but it still bothers me enough to mention it. It appears as if the further Ash makes it, they also make full battles start later. At the Kalos League, full battles only started at the semifinals, after all previous leagues have started them at least at the quarterfinals (even earlier in Johto and Hoenn). Not only does this make Ash's path through the league subjectively easier as I mentioned in my point #1 above that it doesn't seem like Ash had to do much to make it far, because they don't show it to us, but also, it makes Ash's path through the league objectively easier as well considering that he had to face no full battles to reach the semifinals. Who knows whether Astrid could have beaten Ash in a full 6on6 battle, because perhaps Jobdra and Jobvern weren't used in the 3on3 but they would be forced to in the 6on6, and oh btw I had to say "perhaps" because i don't even KNOW whether or not they were used in the 3on3 because IT WASN'T SHOWN!!!

    5) Showing more battles gives reserves more opportunities to be shown battling. This applies to both the Sinnoh League, where we saw a bunch of reserves in the first episode of the league, many of whom we never saw battling, and also to even leagues without reserves, because who knows, if there were more battles to be shown, maybe the writers would have changed their minds and actually shown reserves, we can't say for sure that just because no reserves were shown that that was the plan all along, it may only be the case specifically because there are barely any battles being shown and therefore they only want to show the current gen mons.
  15. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    A noteworthy thing is that in the movie 17 M-Absol destroyed Ash's team and they showed Hawlucha defeating it as if it were a random pokémon.
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  16. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humanity's greatest soldier

    Well M absol only defeated hawlucha in movie 17, to it was hawlucha's getting revenge on it, but yeah my biggest issue with kalos league was it totally offscreened ash's match until semis and gave it to unnecessary matches, we should have gotten ash vs astrid full 3 on 3 match.
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  17. Epicocity

    Epicocity Well-Known Member

    While I've never argued that at least Hawlucha vs. Absol shouldn't have been shown, I feel the opinion strikes from a matter of opinion over a storytelling perspective, however.

    Sure, things are random in real-life, but a story is not real-life. There's a reason that Sorting Algorithm of Villains exists as a trope. I would have had a hard time swallowing that Ash could stand a chance against Alain if he had struggled in the first rounds when Alain steamrolled people. We all knew Ash wouldn't beat Tobias because he had steamrolled while Ash had barely won most of his previous battles. That's just storytelling basics.

    And to have an overconfidence story just after a literal overconfidence/struggle with power arc that the anime had just been would have been repetitively bad.

    Likewise it's the "quality over quantity" argument; I personally find Hoenn to be a rather poor League that boiled down to rushed battles, even though there were more of them. They crammed full battles into an episode at times, even. And while I can see the appeal for those who like to tier Pokemon, from a story perspective, seeing all these Pokemon fight ad nauseum is...pointless.

    I don't need 10 episodes to be shown Ash making it to the finals when the first episode establishes both his character and his battle strength relative to the top competitor. At that point, seeing every fight would just be seeing battles to see battles, which any storyteller worth their salt would tell you is a bad idea. That degrades the overall story.

    I like action as much as the next guy, but I'll accept less action if it means the fat is trimmed for a cohesive story vision, which is what the Kalos League had (and the Sinnoh League).
  18. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    You really think the Mandi battle was better than Jeanette Fisher!!
  19. GarchompChain

    GarchompChain Well-Known Member

    Well you're probably one of the few people alive who watches Pokémon for the story (really?). A lot of us like to see battles and I think we put up some valid arguments in this topic. Just like the animation problem is a valid counterargument.

    Unlike your "argument": "a cohesive story vision"(LOL). I know you consider yourself a writer but showing Ash winning one battle and starting the second episode of a league with announcing he's in the semi-finals is not a complete story.

    So tell us, what's your real reason for always defending this rushed league? (You even dedend the random Furfrou battle replacing a proper league battle) Are you one of the writers?
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  20. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 Neutral force of Meh

    to be fair, ash did perform better against tobias than the other finalist, so he pretty much only got top 4 instead of runner-up due to a bad matchup
    LilligantLewis likes this.

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