Rank the leagues

[LilligantLewis]

Don't tell me what I did or didn't read.

I will tell you what you did or didn't read because you claimed to be summarizing his arguments from said post but mentioned a bunch of other stuff that had nothing to do with that post which was all about the Furfrou trainer. Second of all, I'm not claiming what can or cannot destroy his argments but simply that you're making no sense, taking things out of context, and just going off the rails in bashing him.

 

[GarchompChain]

I will tell you what you did or didn't read because you claimed to be summarizing his arguments from said post but mentioned a bunch of other stuff that had nothing to do with that post which was all about the Furfrou trainer. Second of all, I'm not claiming what can or cannot destroy his argments but simply that you're making no sense, taking things out of context, and just going off the rails in bashing him.

Haha what? I never claimed that. I was summarizing my own arguments against his arguments in this entire topic. Maybe you should read first. Never assume anything again .

 

[LilligantLewis]

Haha what? I never claimed that. I was summarizing my own arguments against his arguments in this entire topic. Maybe you should read first. Never assume anything again .

In post #55 you said he will defend Furfrou with no further explanation. In post #57 I told you that he actually did provide further explanation in post #47. In responding to my post, you then proceeded to talk about stuff that was not Furfrou.

 

[GarchompChain]

In post #55 you said he will defend Furfrou with no further explanation. In post #57 I told you that he actually did provide further explanation in post #47. In responding to my post, you then proceeded to talk about stuff that was not Furfrou.

There is no further explanation than "it's for the story", that's what his post comes down to. But it's Pokémon, so there is no story.

 

[LilligantLewis]

There is no further explanation than "it's for the story", that's what his post comes down to. But it's Pokémon, so there is no story.

I understand that, I was only just telling you that there was an explanation he provide since you said no explanation lol. that's all

 

[GarchompChain]

I understand that, I was only just telling you that there was an explanation he provide since you said no explanation lol. that's all

Well fair enough. I just don't consider it an explanation. But again, I'm biased.

I'm also finding the battle ranking interesting. I'll just make a top 10:

1. Ash vs Paul
2. Ash vs Gary
3. Ash vs Sawyer
4. Ash vs Katie
5. Ash vs Tyson
6. Ash vs Harrison
7. Ash vs Stephan
8. Paul vs Barry
9. Ash vs Tobias
10. Ash vs Conway

 

[ash&charizardfan]

Well fair enough. I just don't consider it an explanation. But again, I'm biased.

I'm also finding the battle ranking interesting. I'll just make a top 10:

1. Ash vs Paul
2. Ash vs Gary
3. Ash vs Sawyer
4. Ash vs Katie
5. Ash vs Tyson
6. Ash vs Harrison
7. Ash vs Stephan
8. Paul vs Barry
9. Ash vs Tobias
10. Ash vs Conway

Ash vs gary is overrated, the only good matcchup in that was charizard vs blastoise, the rest were all oneshots or twoshots i think ash vs drake is often underrated everyone
contributed in that match, and ash vs alain should be easily in at least top 5 list regarless of the result, the rest is good.

 

[GarchompChain]

Ash vs gary is overrated, the only good matcchup in that was charizard vs blastoise, the rest were all oneshots or twoshots i think ash vs drake is often underrated everyone
contributed in that match, and ash vs alain should be easily in at least top 5 list regarless of the result, the rest is good.

Oh you're right, I actually forgot about Drake. I like vs Gary because it was the culmination of the long rivalry. I never watched the second part of vs Alain, so I can't judge that.

 

[LilligantLewis]

Oh you're right, I actually forgot about Drake. I like vs Gary because it was the culmination of the long rivalry. I never watched the second part of vs Alain, so I can't judge that.

Why didn't you watch it?

 

[GarchompChain]

Why didn't you watch it?

Frankly, it was pettiness. I was pissed about the lackluster league they gave us and I felt only a win for Ash could make up for it.

It's on Netflix now, so maybe I'll watch it soon.

 

[LilligantLewis]

Frankly, it was pettiness. I was pissed about the lackluster league they gave us and I felt only a win for Ash could make up for it.

It's on Netflix now, so maybe I'll watch it soon.

I definitely think you should and then rerank lol.. it's not a Unova-level league.

 

[Shadao]

I agree with you and I read and enjoy the manga as well, but the manga and anime are two different media. Seeing moving images in the anime makes for more exciting battles, and the inability to do that in the manga makes the storytelling/strategy perspective of the plot so much more important than it is in the anime. So it makes total sense that they did that in the manga, but in the anime where the medium allows amazing visualizations that can make battles look so much better than in the manga, it makes little sense to skip so many of them. They don't all have to have an important plot element the way they would to capture the audience/reader's attention in the manga.

Do you know why anime adaptations pad out the story with filler episodes and multi-part battle episodes? Because it would overtake the manga and they would have no story left to tell. Thus you must delay until the manga is complete. The XY series is not based on a manga, but it has a deadline. Thus it must think like a manga series, distilling to only have the most important battles in the series. If it doesn't contribute to the plot and animation-grueling for the animators, it must be cut.

Animating episodes isn't as easy as the best animators make it out to be. Add to the fact that the Team Flare, not the League, is a major aspect of the XY climax, lengthening the League via filler would only put unnecessary load on the animators and storyboarders. XY is also one of the few, if not only, series to make great use of the story. Therefore, it doesn't need filler League battles to draw audience attention, it has a narrative to do that already.

 

[GarchompChain]

I definitely think you should and then rerank lol.. it's not a Unova-level league.

I don't consider it a "league" at all. It's just two battles. So I would still rank it just above Unova. Just because of the laziness.

Do you know why anime adaptations pad out the story with filler episodes and multi-part battle episodes? Because it would overtake the manga and they would have no story left to tell. Thus you must delay until the manga is complete. The XY series is not based on a manga, but it has a deadline. Thus it must think like a manga series, distilling to only have the most important battles in the series. If it doesn't contribute to the plot and animation-grueling for the animators, it must be cut.

Animating episodes isn't as easy as the best animators make it out to be. Add to the fact that the Team Flare, not the League, is a major aspect of the XY climax, lengthening the League via filler would only put unnecessary load on the animators and storyboarders. XY is also one of the few, if not only, series to make great use of the story. Therefore, it doesn't need filler League battles to draw audience attention, it has a narrative to do that already.

A league battle with the main character can, by definition, not be a filler.

 

[Shadao]

I don't consider it a "league" at all. It's just two battles. So I would still rank it just above Unova. Just because of the laziness.


A league battle with the main character can, by definition, not be a filler.

Two Battles? You have Alain vs Trevor, Ash vs the Altria Trainer, Ash vs Astrid, Sawyer vs Tireno, Remo vs Alain, Ash vs Sawyer, and Ash vs Alain. Not every battle has to be Ash vs someone.

And League Battles can be considered filler if it doesn't advance the plot or can be easily cut. It's simply padding out the series.

Doing some trivia counting, all the Leagues up to this date have an average of 7 episodes (counting non-battle episodes as well).

Indigo Plateau Conference: 7 Episodes
Silver Conference: 7 Episodes
Ever Grande Conference: 7 Episodes
Lily of the Valley Conference: 8 Episodes
Vertress Conference: 6 Episodes
Lumiose Conference: 7 Episodes

As we can see, no League Conference has ever exceeded 10-Episode mark limit. The Sinnoh League is the closest, but only because one battle (Ash vs Paul) took 3 episodes to be told. The next battle, by contrast, took about one to wrap things up.

Ash's Full Battles:

Indigo: 0
Silver: 2
Ever Grande: 3
Lily of the Valley: 2 (note: 6 vs 2 for Tobias)
Vertress: 1 (note: 6 vs 5 for Cameron)
Lumiose: 2

As we can see, Full Battles are very rare. And if we discount Tobias since his Battle was more of a 6 vs 2, there are a total of 9 Full Battles out 6 Leagues. 8 if you discount Cameron. An average of 1.333 Full Battle or 1-2 Full Battles in a given League; the rest of the League battles being 3 vs 3.

This tells us that Full Battles are not animator friendly and are reserved for big events. Also note that Full Battles during the Johto and Hoenn era were back to back. So 3 episodes were dedicated to Full Battles in Johto; 4 episodes were dedicated to Full Battles in Hoenn; 3 episodes dedicated to Full Battles in Sinnoh (4 if you count Tobias); 2 episodes dedicated to Full Battles in Unova; and finally, 4 episodes dedicated to Full Battles in Kalos.

As we can see, Kalos League isn't really shorter compared to the rest of the Leagues. It's about the same length. It only feels short because the preliminaries and semifinals were focused on Ash's future opponents, Sawyer and Alain respectively instead of Ash; while one non-battle episode is used to set up the Team Flare climax (which itself is 5 episodes long). There's also the fact the other Leagues never got Ash as far as he did in Kalos, usually landing in the Top 8. As such, many fans imagined how long the League would be if Ash wasn't knocked out, which extends it around 10 episodes.

 

[Jeal]

Do you know why anime adaptations pad out the story with filler episodes and multi-part battle episodes? Because it would overtake the manga and they would have no story left to tell. Thus you must delay until the manga is complete. The XY series is not based on a manga, but it has a deadline. Thus it must think like a manga series, distilling to only have the most important battles in the series. If it doesn't contribute to the plot and animation-grueling for the animators, it must be cut.

They can simply cut out filler episodes for more league episodes.

XY is also one of the few, if not only, series to make great use of the story. Therefore, it doesn't need filler League battles to draw audience attention, it has a narrative to do that already.

XY's story is not that great(I'm a XY fan myself), it's just ok.

 

[Epicocity]

They can simply cut out filler episodes for more league episodes.
XY's story is not that great(I'm a XY fan myself), it's just ok.

You do know how production works, right? It's a numbers game.

Say a single League episode costs $10,000 to make, while your average filler is about $2,000. Plus the time involved of a League episode taking (not anywhere close to right) 100 hours and a filler taking 30 hours.

Now, you have a budget of, say, 20 episodes under a constraint of $60,000. So, sure, you could make 6 League episodes, but then you have nothing left to make anything else. Instead, you're likely going to make, perhaps, 2 League episodes, and then pour the rest into fillers. Plus it takes less time.

A filler episode wouldn't compare nearly as much to a League episode in terms of costs and man-hours, so you can't just cut one and replace it. You'd have to do a different ratio, like a 3:1 ratio, at best, which doesn't meet the episode count you'd need to satisfy.

 

[GarchompChain]

Two Battles? You have Alain vs Trevor, Ash vs the Altria Trainer, Ash vs Astrid, Sawyer vs Tireno, Remo vs Alain, Ash vs Sawyer, and Ash vs Alain. Not every battle has to be Ash vs someone.

And League Battles can be considered filler if it doesn't advance the plot or can be easily cut. It's simply padding out the series.

Doing some trivia counting, all the Leagues up to this date have an average of 7 episodes (counting non-battle episodes as well).

Indigo Plateau Conference: 7 Episodes
Silver Conference: 7 Episodes
Ever Grande Conference: 7 Episodes
Lily of the Valley Conference: 8 Episodes
Vertress Conference: 6 Episodes
Lumiose Conference: 7 Episodes

As we can see, no League Conference has ever exceeded 10-Episode mark limit. The Sinnoh League is the closest, but only because one battle (Ash vs Paul) took 3 episodes to be told. The next battle, by contrast, took about one to wrap things up.

Ash's Full Battles:

Indigo: 0
Silver: 2
Ever Grande: 3
Lily of the Valley: 2 (note: 6 vs 2 for Tobias)
Vertress: 1 (note: 6 vs 5 for Cameron)
Lumiose: 2

As we can see, Full Battles are very rare. And if we discount Tobias since his Battle was more of a 6 vs 2, there are a total of 9 Full Battles out 6 Leagues. 8 if you discount Cameron. An average of 1.333 Full Battle or 1-2 Full Battles in a given League; the rest of the League battles being 3 vs 3.

This tells us that Full Battles are not animator friendly and are reserved for big events. Also note that Full Battles during the Johto and Hoenn era were back to back. So 3 episodes were dedicated to Full Battles in Johto; 4 episodes were dedicated to Full Battles in Hoenn; 3 episodes dedicated to Full Battles in Sinnoh (4 if you count Tobias); 2 episodes dedicated to Full Battles in Unova; and finally, 4 episodes dedicated to Full Battles in Kalos.

As we can see, Kalos League isn't really shorter compared to the rest of the Leagues. It's about the same length. It only feels short because the preliminaries and semifinals were focused on Ash's future opponents, Sawyer and Alain respectively instead of Ash; while one non-battle episode is used to set up the Team Flare climax (which itself is 5 episodes long). There's also the fact the other Leagues never got Ash as far as he did in Kalos, usually landing in the Top 8. As such, many fans imagined how long the League would be if Ash wasn't knocked out, which extends it around 10 episodes.

Two battles from the main character. Come on man, vs Altaria and Astrid are not battles. How can you say that?

 

[Jeal]

You do know how production works, right? It's a numbers game.

Say a single League episode costs $10,000 to make, while your average filler is about $2,000. Plus the time involved of a League episode taking (not anywhere close to right) 100 hours and a filler taking 30 hours.

Now, you have a budget of, say, 20 episodes under a constraint of $60,000. So, sure, you could make 6 League episodes, but then you have nothing left to make anything else. Instead, you're likely going to make, perhaps, 2 League episodes, and then pour the rest into fillers. Plus it takes less time.

A filler episode wouldn't compare nearly as much to a League episode in terms of costs and man-hours, so you can't just cut one and replace it. You'd have to do a different ratio, like a 3:1 ratio, at best, which doesn't meet the episode count you'd need to satisfy.

I already said, not all cares about great animation. The first episodes don't need to be masterpieces.

 

[Epicocity]

Two battles from the main character. Come on man, vs Altaria and Astrid are not battles. How can you say that?

Not that I wish to engage but, if you claim that Pokemon has no story...why does it matter if we see the main character battle? Why does it matter if they win or lose? That only matters if there's a story. If there's stakes and meaning behind seeing that particular person battle.

If there's no story, then, by your own admission, we should just be watching a random series of battles where it doesn't matter who wins or loses except for your own personal preference, and it doesn't matter who we see on screen doing what. Since the story doesn't matter, we should have just followed some random guy who made it to the quarterfinals and Ash was just another random dude. Characters can only exist if there's a story. So, your complaint is a bit confusing to me at that point.

 

[Power Up]

I can only really rank XYZ's league because every single other league has such horrid animation and visuals. I'll give Sinnoh the no2 spot for having lots of battles and an epic rivalry, but I won't lie and say I don't care about flash. After watching XY battles, it is much harder to watch any other battles in any other gens

Ash vs Sawyer and Ash v Alain are the two best battles ever made in Pokemon history outside of Ash v Olympia. It was like I was watching an actual anime battle. It was epic. I go to Sinnoh or Hoenn, or Johto or whatever and the animation and visuals make it very hard to watch