Ranked Battle Series 6's Banlist - Discussion Thread

[shoz999]

Full List Here - Series 6 Banlist

According to Serebii.net themselves, most of the new Pokemon banned for Series 6 are supposedly the most used Pokemon of Season 5.

• Venusaur
• Gyarados
• Porygon2
• Tyranitar
• Torkoal
• Hippowdon
• Magnezone
• Togekiss
• Excadrill
• Whimsicott
• Incineroar
• Mimikyu
• Rillaboom
• Cinderace
• Indeedee
• Dragapult

Before expressing how the games never banned "broken" Pokemon like Galarian Darmanitan or Dracovish, keep in mind the official competitive format often caters to the Doubles Format over the Singles Format as seen in how the Doubles Format dominates VGC, many new items and abilities are clearly leaning towards Doubles, and that seemingly "broken" sweepers in Singles are far more vulnerable in Doubles suggesting that GameFreak did not think Single Battles in mind when designing Pokemon like Dracovish and Galarian Darmanitan. In fact, if you look at the banlist above, some of the Pokemon are known better for being far more effective in the Doubles Format than Singles. With that being said, this is an explanation, not an excuse to avoid the discussion of Single Battles. The games' favoring of Doubles over Singles will affect the Single Battles format greatly, so with all this knowledge in mind, please go ahead and discuss your thoughts on how this will impact Singles & Doubles.

 

[Marbi Z]

Initially I was ticked off that My new Favorite Pokémon Cinderace was on the Ban List for the next 2 months but then I remember how I was disenchanted by competitive battling due to only seeing a handful of Poke’s on the top teams and VGC series. While I still might play ranked a bit without my Cinderace just to get the Rewards for Pokeball Rank I’m just not a fan of having to build a whole new team from Scratch multiple times every generation just to stay competitive. I tend to get very attached to my Original Team I build during my play through and the 2nd team I build from the ground up to be more competitive. Of course if you listen to the talks in game and watch the anime that’s what it basically teaches you.

 

[shoz999]

Thought this was funny. A lot of people seem to agree the banlist caters to the Doubles Format over Singles which has some people scratching their heads, why isn't Eviolite Dusclops on this list lol? I don't know how high Dusclops' usage is but I know it's high because the higher you rank up in the Doubles Format, the more you will see a Dusclops-Trick Room team that it starts to become a common sight and I know Eviolite Dusclops is so incredibly annoying to deal with if you don't have Taunt or Knock-Off. He is one extremely bulky boi, a nightmare especially to physical sweepers. I'm seeing a lot of people claim that Dusclops barely got by, that if GameFreak had extended the list for one more Pokemon, Dusclops would've definitely be on the list. I don't know about you but considering that people absolutely love or hate Eviolite on both a competitive and lore level, GameFreak should just add the move Knock-Off as a TM/TR for good measure. If your going to bring in Eviolite back, Knock-Off should be brought back as a TM/TR.

As for myself, this won't affect me too much since I've gathered a lot of transfer Pokemon over the years. Right now, I'm on my third Pokemon team. I can see this very refreshing for old-time players but very annoying for new players who are just starting out or have focused on one team. Honestly, if they are going to do this, they need to balance out free battles like they did for Gen 6 and I think Gen 7 with the simple option of excluding Legendary Pokemon because there is going to be people who really want to use these banned non-legendaries.

 

[Ignition]

I've expressed before that I don't like when they just ban Pokémon regardless if it's because they're overpowered or if it's to make people try out new Pokemon. Both could've been an option if we were given proper game balancing.


I rarely play by their rulesets now as I find it got boring so it ultimately doesn't bother me. I just play by Smogon rulesets at this point as the environment is overall much more enjoyable. I only stick around for the occasional new tech or breath of fresh air that comes with more legal Pokémon

 

[neophenx]

I don't know why this "singles vs doubles" is even a discussion regarding Series 6 bans. The bans are based solely on actual usage statistics for the online Ranking ladder in Pokemon Sw/Sh, both Singles and Doubles. The top 10 Pokemon from EACH ladder from Series 5 is banned for series 6. To keep the ban list simple, they took the top 10 from each ladder (which consisted of 16 different Pokemon due to some overlap) and banned them from both. The reason "broken" Pokemon like Dracovish and Darmanitan weren't banned? Their usage stats didn't place them in the top 10 of either list.

In fact, if you look at the banlist above, some of the Pokemon are known better for being far more effective in the Doubles Format than Singles.

As mentioned, the ban list has nothing to do with a preference for doubles over singles. It's the top 10 most used Pokemon from EACH ranking ladder. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[shoz999]

I don't know why this "singles vs doubles" is even a discussion regarding Series 6 bans. The bans are based solely on actual usage statistics for the online Ranking ladder in Pokemon Sw/Sh, both Singles and Doubles. The top 10 Pokemon from EACH ladder from Series 5 is banned for series 6. To keep the ban list simple, they took the top 10 from each ladder (which consisted of 16 different Pokemon due to some overlap) and banned them from both. The reason "broken" Pokemon like Dracovish and Darmanitan weren't banned? Their usage stats didn't place them in the top 10 of either list.

As mentioned, the ban list has nothing to do with a preference for doubles over singles. It's the top 10 most used Pokemon from EACH ranking ladder. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well that explains Magnezone, the only Pokemon that stands out more of a Single Battles Pokemon.

 

[Ophie]

Before expressing how the games never banned "broken" Pokemon like Galarian Darmanitan or Dracovish, keep in mind the official competitive format often caters to the Doubles Format over the Singles Format as seen in how the Doubles Format dominates VGC, many new items and abilities are clearly leaning towards Doubles, and that seemingly "broken" sweepers in Singles are far more vulnerable in Doubles suggesting that GameFreak did not think Single Battles in mind when designing Pokemon like Dracovish and Galarian Darmanitan. In fact, if you look at the banlist above, some of the Pokemon are known better for being far more effective in the Doubles Format than Singles. With that being said, this is an explanation, not an excuse to avoid the discussion of Single Battles. The games' favoring of Doubles over Singles will affect the Single Battles format greatly, so with all this knowledge in mind, please go ahead and discuss your thoughts on how this will impact Singles & Doubles.

I also want to point out that there's a very good reason why Dracovish and Galarian Darmanitan did not make the top 10 in either single or double battling: These are not full-team battles. When you're battling with a full team, especially in single battling, there's going to be a lot more switching, particularly at the beginning, as you have a lot more options. In single battles, you begin with only 3 of your Pokémon, so you not only have fewer options, but switching is a lot riskier, because a badly-predicted switch at the beginning of a battle could potentially take out one-third of your Pokémon.

Both Dracovish and Galarian Darmanitan are centered around the Choice Items, which allow you to make another selection upon switching out and switching back. When you have your whole team to choose from, the inability to pick another move until you switch out and back isn't really that bad of a drawback. On the other hand, with only three Pokémon to begin with, that's absolutely crippling, more so when your Pokémon are knocked out. When one Pokémon is knocked out, you have one other Pokémon to switch to, which won't always be a good matchup against what's on the other side. When two are knocked out, you can't switch at all, and you have to fully commit to that move or, if you haven't used it already, use Dynamax to be able to select something else for the next three turns, then get locked back in.

In addition, Dynamax itself really hurts these two, since, as Pokémon who rely on Choice Items, they should not be Dynamaxing unless as a last resort. Whatever they're up against, odds are they can Dynamax with impunity, allowing that Pokémon to withstand a hit (as long as they're not weak to something) and strike back with something strong with a powerful secondary effect.

For a similar reason, you don't see Toxapex on that list despite being some Smogon players' worst nightmare because Toxapex relies on Regenerator via switching out and back in, which is less useful for 3-on-3 battling. On top of that, due to low attack power and having few attacking moves, Toxapex is ill-suited to use Dynamax, and Baneful Bunker won't stop Max Quakes, Max Mindstorms, Max Lightnings, and their G-Max counterparts from getting through and applying their effects, and won't apply Poison either because Max Moves and G-Max Moves are non-contact.

Initially I was ticked off that My new Favorite Pokémon Cinderace was on the Ban List for the next 2 months but then I remember how I was disenchanted by competitive battling due to only seeing a handful of Poke’s on the top teams and VGC series. While I still might play ranked a bit without my Cinderace just to get the Rewards for Pokeball Rank I’m just not a fan of having to build a whole new team from Scratch multiple times every generation just to stay competitive. I tend to get very attached to my Original Team I build during my play through and the 2nd team I build from the ground up to be more competitive. Of course if you listen to the talks in game and watch the anime that’s what it basically teaches you.

You might have to stop playing Ranked before long, because if this is like Generation VII, Series 6 will be followed by an even wilder ruleset for Series 7. What they're doing now is relatively tame.

 

[neophenx]

You might have to stop playing Ranked before long, because if this is like Generation VII, Series 6 will be followed by an even wilder ruleset for Series 7. What they're doing now is relatively tame.

If I'm not mistaken, the Crowned Tundra is just on the horizon, so I'd expect Series 7 to basically open the floodgates to that nonsense. I understand the Crowned Tundra is supposed to bring Legendary Pokemon into raids, so if it's bringing back things like Landorus and Thundurus, we're in for a rough ride of what would basically be the "national dex" formats, a-la 2015/2018 VGC.

 

[shoz999]

If I'm not mistaken, the Crowned Tundra is just on the horizon, so I'd expect Series 7 to basically open the floodgates to that nonsense. I understand the Crowned Tundra is supposed to bring Legendary Pokemon into raids, so if it's bringing back things like Landorus and Thundurus, we're in for a rough ride of what would basically be the "national dex" formats, a-la 2015/2018 VGC.

It's really just Landorus lol. That's just how broken he is if people meme often how he's going to bring in a rough ride what "national dex" formats could look like. They really need to nerf Landorus, starting with it's ability.

Just occurred to me though. Landorus is annoying enough, but there's a lot of water-type special attackers that can break through Landorus right? Even with Assault Vest right? That is until... MWAHAHA... the Rillaboom ban is lifted.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Bit of an old conversation, I know, but really the problem with Landorus-Therian (at least in Gens 5-7) isn't really that it's overpowered in any particular role per se (although 145 base Attack is nothing to laugh at), it's more how ridiculously versatile it is. It's the kind of Pokemon you can slap on nearly any team and have it pull more than its weight. It can pivot, it can set rocks, it can wallbreak with Swords Dance, it can sweep with Rock Polish/double dance, it can lure things that usually check it into a Knock Off or a Toxic, it can revengekill with a Scarf, all the while blanket checking a huge number of physical attackers thanks to Intimidate. While it might not be the best at any one of these roles, the fact that it can do any of these roles and often multiple of these roles at once makes it somewhat of a hindrance to creative teambuilding. If I need a rocker who can also pivot with U-Turn and lure in Tangrowth to remove its Assault Vest so my Gengar has an easier time sweeping, why would I consider other options for those roles when I can just slap Landorus into that slot and fill all 3 with one team slot? It definitely stifles other Pokemon who might otherwise see more usage if the swiss army knife that is Landorus-Therian wasn't always the go-to option for filling these roles.

Now Dynamax brings Landorus a reliable Flying STAB (while Dynamaxed anyways) that boosts its Speed and allows it to break through the bulky Grasses that might have otherwise checked it. In addition, its Ground STAB bolsters its overwise fairly mediocre special bulk, allowing it to blanket check both halves of the attacking spectrum. These factors might be enough to push Landorus-Therian from really good and arguably unhealthy from a teambuilding perspective due to how splashable it is to flat out overpowered from any perspective, but Dynamax makes a lot of other Pokemon overpowered as well so that's hardly surprising. This is one gimmick I absolutely hope they dump in the next generation.

 

[shoz999]

Bit of an old conversation, I know, but really the problem with Landorus-Therian (at least in Gens 5-7) isn't really that it's overpowered in any particular role per se (although 145 base Attack is nothing to laugh at), it's more how ridiculously versatile it is. It's the kind of Pokemon you can slap on nearly any team and have it pull more than its weight. It can pivot, it can set rocks, it can wallbreak with Swords Dance, it can sweep with Rock Polish/double dance, it can lure things that usually check it into a Knock Off or a Toxic, it can revengekill with a Scarf, all the while blanket checking a huge number of physical attackers thanks to Intimidate. While it might not be the best at any one of these roles, the fact that it can do any of these roles and often multiple of these roles at once makes it somewhat of a hindrance to creative teambuilding. If I need a rocker who can also pivot with U-Turn and lure in Tangrowth to remove its Assault Vest so my Gengar has an easier time sweeping, why would I consider other options for those roles when I can just slap Landorus into that slot and fill all 3 with one team slot? It definitely stifles other Pokemon who might otherwise see more usage if the swiss army knife that is Landorus-Therian wasn't always the go-to option for filling these roles.

Now Dynamax brings Landorus a reliable Flying STAB (while Dynamaxed anyways) that boosts its Speed and allows it to break through the bulky Grasses that might have otherwise checked it. In addition, its Ground STAB bolsters its overwise fairly mediocre special bulk, allowing it to blanket check both halves of the attacking spectrum. These factors might be enough to push Landorus-Therian from really good and arguably unhealthy from a teambuilding perspective due to how splashable it is to flat out overpowered from any perspective, but Dynamax makes a lot of other Pokemon overpowered as well so that's hardly surprising. This is one gimmick I absolutely hope they dump in the next generation.

I hope Dynamax returns. It's one of the better mechanics that synergizes well with battles and you can see it in how people's problem with Dynamax isn't Dynamax itself. The mechanics allow fun and creative play, more so in Doubles, since it acts more like switching into a different loadout of moves rather than an upgrade. I would even argue that it allows fairer play than Mega Evolution since previous metas isolated themselves in building teams around a few select of Pokemon that can abuse Mega Evolution whereas in Dynamax, most Pokemon can use it and turn the tides. Because of this, most of the OP/broken Pokemon we've been seeing in the Dynamax meta are simply Pokemon that will always be broken and OP with or without gimmicks, unless there is some kind of balance such as checks or nerfs.

With that being said, people's problems with Dynamax isn't Dynamax itself and this is something even Smogon admitted as seen in how they are handling the Gen 8 meta. The problem with Dynamax is that certain Pokemon that have already proven troublesome in past metas and will prove troublesome in current and future metas with or without gimmicks like Mega Evolution or Dynamax, such as Landorus, is why people aren't entirely onboard with Dynamax. Most of the criticisms of Dynamax are pointing to abusing the mechanics through Pokemon that are already deemed broken by the fans. With that being said, if the mechanics of Dynamax are only as broken as the roster of Pokemon are available, perhaps the problem isn't Dynamax itself but that Pokemon like Landorus needs nerfs and checks. If anything, the current conversation of how Dynamax's biggest problem solely lies with the roster of Pokemon that are already broken without such gimmicks is further proof that the Pokemon roster needs some examination for buffs, nerfs, and checks of course.

 

[Divine Retribution]

The problem with Dynamax is that certain Pokemon that have already proven troublesome in past metas and will prove troublesome in current and future metas with or without gimmicks like Mega Evolution or Dynamax, such as Landorus

This isn't true at all though, Landorus-Therian being potentially the primary exception. Other Pokemon Dynamax breaks include Gyarados, Excadrill, Hawlucha, and Togekiss. None of these were deemed overpowered before Gen 8, and a lot of Pokemon who were deemed borderline overpowered (such as Toxapex and Chansey) hardly benefit from Dynamax at all. Most of the overpowered Dynamax threats are Pokemon who get access to STAB Flying moves in conjunction with another factor that lets them use those boosts to sweep. In Gyarados's case, it's Moxie letting it boost both its Attack and Speed without ever even touching Dragon Dance by spamming a base 130 power STAB move and getting KOs. Hawlucha can boost its Attack with its other STAB, and also happens to be one of the very few Dynamax users Ditto can't revengekill thanks to Unburden. Togekiss abuses Serene Grace after Dynamax ends to be able to flinch its way past otherwise solid answers, and Excadrill is kind of the odd one out as it doesn't have access to STAB Max Airstream, but its STABs do allow it to boost both its Defense and Special Defense, and the newly buffed Rapid Spin offers it some opportunities to boost its Speed if necessary. In all cases, it's a particular combination of factors that Dynamax brought about that lead to these Pokemon being broken, and few if any of them are factors that existed pre-Dynamax.

I think Dynamax could probably be balanced by scrapping the stat boosts from Max Airstream/Knuckle/Ooze/Quake/Steelspike and replacing them with other benefits, as the stat boosts from spamming high base power attacks are largely where the problems stem from, but even then I don't think it's a mechanic that really adds much depth of strategy to the game. I've gone over in other posts why I think Mega Evolution was a superior mechanic all around and I'm still somewhat chafed that it got axed and I hope they bring it back, although I'm somewhat skeptical they will. They don't usually bring gimmicks back when they drop them.

 

[shoz999]

This isn't true at all though, Landorus-Therian being potentially the primary exception. Other Pokemon Dynamax breaks include Gyarados, Excadrill, Hawlucha, and Togekiss. None of these were deemed overpowered before Gen 8, and a lot of Pokemon who were deemed borderline overpowered (such as Toxapex and Chansey) hardly benefit from Dynamax at all. Most of the overpowered Dynamax threats are Pokemon who get access to STAB Flying moves in conjunction with another factor that lets them use those boosts to sweep. In Gyarados's case, it's Moxie letting it boost both its Attack and Speed without ever even touching Dragon Dance by spamming a base 130 power STAB move and getting KOs. Hawlucha can boost its Attack with its other STAB, and also happens to be one of the very few Dynamax users Ditto can't revengekill thanks to Unburden. Togekiss abuses Serene Grace after Dynamax ends to be able to flinch its way past otherwise solid answers, and Excadrill is kind of the odd one out as it doesn't have access to STAB Max Airstream, but its STABs do allow it to boost both its Defense and Special Defense, and the newly buffed Rapid Spin offers it some opportunities to boost its Speed if necessary. In all cases, it's a particular combination of factors that Dynamax brought about that lead to these Pokemon being broken, and few if any of them are factors that existed pre-Dynamax.

I think Dynamax could probably be balanced by scrapping the stat boosts from Max Airstream/Knuckle/Ooze/Quake/Steelspike and replacing them with other benefits, as the stat boosts from spamming high base power attacks are largely where the problems stem from, but even then I don't think it's a mechanic that really adds much depth of strategy to the game. I've gone over in other posts why I think Mega Evolution was a superior mechanic all around and I'm still somewhat chafed that it got axed and I hope they bring it back, although I'm somewhat skeptical they will. They don't usually bring gimmicks back when they drop them.

In my opinion Excadrill, Togekiss, and Hawlucha aren't really broken in the Dynamax meta. If anything, they've become predictable overtime, there are plenty of ways to counter and wall them, and some powerful Pokemon who rely on Choice Items actually gain risky disadvantages in Dynamax. Togekiss is the most predictable out of the Pokemon you've listed as it's frail against physical Steel Types, even in Dynamax with full HP investment. Excadrill who heavily relies on Choice Items to be "broken" loses that "broken" status when it Dynamaxes and becomes vulnerable unless a Sandstorm is at play and even then, it still is very frail on the special defense side of things that it's easy to one-shot even a Dynamax Excadrill with the right Pokemon. Hawlucha, not sure because during my time with Pokemon Sword, I've only fought Hawlucha once and it did not fair well against my Sylveon if memory serves me right but if the lack of Hawlucha tells me anything, it probably has a lot of exploitative weaknesses.

The only example I think is really good for your argument is Gyarados, Sword & Shield's very own Garchomp where once it gets setup, it has very few counters.

Outside of that, I will agree you on one thing. I think they should take away speed boosts from Air Stream. I don't mind attack boosts, in fact I welcome the challenge. What I do think is the problem is speed as you must acknowledge that many top-tier sweepers rely on speed. Even Pokemon with extremely high attack power can be considered laughable if it's speed ain't that good and we can see this in Gyarados. Gyarados's biggest problem with Dynamax isn't that Moxie boost. For example, a Boltund can easily defeat a Gyarados with a simple Thunder Fang and Life Orb and has a 50% chance of one-shotting Gyarados without Life Orb. Gyarados's biggest weakness is of course electric-types and so all that attack power isn't going to matter if it doesn't strike and I'm sure you're aware but most electric-types are known for having high speed stats. That is the problem, Airstream helps covers Gyarados' biggest weakness, it's speed, and turns Gyarados in a freakishly overpowered sweepers that most, if not all, electric Pokemon have no chance of countering.

With that being said, I think Airstream should instead change from a Speed Boost to an hazard removal move.

 

[Ophie]

With that being said, I think Airstream should instead change from a Speed Boost to an hazard removal move.

Heh, now I'm thinking about what would happen if Max Airstream and G-Max Wind Rage had their effects swapped. Definitely, a Speed boost ought to go to a G-Max Move instead.

I'd like to add in another Pokémon that really goes over the edge thanks to this move: Cinderace. This fellow's pretty imposing on his own, but nothing I can't handle. Getting a Speed boost from Max Airstream, however, allows Cinderace to outrun almost anything whose Speed isn't boosted to smithereens, and only a small amount of Pokémon can get away with that. Cinderace users already know who those Pokémon are and are ready to fight them.

I'm not afraid of Hawlucha, Excadrill, Togekiss, or even Gyarados--I'm so used to fighting them that I know what the opponents will do and I can pretty much dance around them. Cinderace, on the other hand, is a lot harder to counter and puts more pressure on me than any other Pokémon in Sword/Shield Ranked (both single and double battles).

 

[nel3]

it might give a chance for an NU pokemon to get some sort of use. alot of the mostly used mons are just plain boring and the same members as your opponent. i cant bother competitive tourneys as you always see the same 15 pokemon common in all the players. its not very interesting as they all have very similar sets.