Pokegirl Fan~
Liko>>>>>Ash
Ash not using his Pokémon from the past series already is a big con for Ash vs Cynthia and them being reduced to cheerleader Pokémon makes it alot worse.
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Ranking Ash's Full Battles.
- Thread starter ash17
- Start date
GarchompTheAssassin
Water starter fan
Well, I found that Ash's 'climb' to Champion status to be less than satisfactory, and as such I feel like he hasn't really earned the right to actually battle competitively with trainers like Cynthia, so that already knocks the battle down a peg to begin with. Then you have the issue with the lack of reserves; that particular horse has beaten to death, so I won't bother going into details, but their absence continues to make this battle less compelling.
Then in the actual battle, I'm just not really fan of the decisions they had Cynthia make - the late Stealth Rock, Garchomp's sh*t and boring moveset and then DMax Togekiss which I'm not sure what was the point of, other than subverting expectations.
Animation/presentation-wise, it was good enough by PM 2019 standards, but otherwise pretty underwhelming all things considered. Monferno vs Electabuzz at Lake Acuity had more intensity than any individual battle here by far (well, more than M8 battle for that matter).
Nothing. I'm referring to Ash's Torterra.
TheNewGuy
Well-Known Member
League-Paul > Cynthia > Kukui > Sawyer > Gary > Acuity-Paul > Drake > Tobias > Katie > Morrison > Harrison > Tyson > Alain > Cameron
Ash/Paul at the league is a fairly definitive number 1 and I really doubt that'll change. Depth of strategy, extremely and bitterly personal, such an interesting dichotomy, especially by the standards of this show. It makes the Ash/Gary rivalry look so petty and childish by comparison, and the battle was the perfect culmination. Torterra getting the shaft is its only real flaw, and even then I really don't care that much about Torterra.
Cynthia is an all-time classic: richly satisfying, great strategies, and never before has a trainer been written to be every inch as fiercely competent in the anime as she is in the games. Cynthia's domination of the first episode and really the second as well were excellent. It lacks the personal needle of Ash/Paul but the magnitude of the achievement and the slugfest climax both make it great.
Kukui/Sawyer is really close, but I'm a sucker for the 4 episodes of the Kukui fight. Both matches had excellent finales, but Kukui kind of had two, what with the excellent Incineroar/Torracat showdown before Koko/Pikachu. The Sawyer match obviously boasts superior, fantastic animation, and that allowed it to do a lot with the 2 episodes it had...but it also had two ties, which was a bit of an odd decision.
Gary is a legendary battle with a legendary performance by Charizard; still a good watch, but with so many OHKOs it's been strongly outclassed since.
The strategies in the first Paul match were great, and seeing Ash outclassed like that was good stuff. As a prelude to the league match a year later, it was good, but it was ultimately a 6-2 and there's a limit on how high that can go. The Drake match was good too but it suffers from being one of the early OS battles, so there's a lot of flaws with it they'd later rectify. Still fun and the configuration of the match (wearing down Dragonite) is still unique.
Tobias is kind of insulting but it's so hilarious I can't hate it. Sceptile beating the Darkrai and Pikachu tying Latios were great moments that allowed Ash to shine in defeat. It's a blatant asspull by the writers but it's a fun episode to watch and I never really thought Ash could win that league anyway, so he had to lose somehow.
Katie and sons were all, like, fine. I didn't like Morrison wasting two of his Pokemon by phoning it in, the rushed nature of Harrison, or losing to ****ing Meowth in boots. Katie is probably the show's blandest full battle but it's passable.
Alain and Cameron were both actively insulting, with the result of both ruining the battles. In Alain's case, the Sawyer battle was still a better watch irrespective of the final result, but at least it looked good. The Cameron fight is the show's nadir. It was Ash's 5th league campaign and he lost to an idiot who thought he only needed 5 Pokemon, and most importantly he did not make progress compared to the previous campaign.
Ash/Paul at the league is a fairly definitive number 1 and I really doubt that'll change. Depth of strategy, extremely and bitterly personal, such an interesting dichotomy, especially by the standards of this show. It makes the Ash/Gary rivalry look so petty and childish by comparison, and the battle was the perfect culmination. Torterra getting the shaft is its only real flaw, and even then I really don't care that much about Torterra.
Cynthia is an all-time classic: richly satisfying, great strategies, and never before has a trainer been written to be every inch as fiercely competent in the anime as she is in the games. Cynthia's domination of the first episode and really the second as well were excellent. It lacks the personal needle of Ash/Paul but the magnitude of the achievement and the slugfest climax both make it great.
Kukui/Sawyer is really close, but I'm a sucker for the 4 episodes of the Kukui fight. Both matches had excellent finales, but Kukui kind of had two, what with the excellent Incineroar/Torracat showdown before Koko/Pikachu. The Sawyer match obviously boasts superior, fantastic animation, and that allowed it to do a lot with the 2 episodes it had...but it also had two ties, which was a bit of an odd decision.
Gary is a legendary battle with a legendary performance by Charizard; still a good watch, but with so many OHKOs it's been strongly outclassed since.
The strategies in the first Paul match were great, and seeing Ash outclassed like that was good stuff. As a prelude to the league match a year later, it was good, but it was ultimately a 6-2 and there's a limit on how high that can go. The Drake match was good too but it suffers from being one of the early OS battles, so there's a lot of flaws with it they'd later rectify. Still fun and the configuration of the match (wearing down Dragonite) is still unique.
Tobias is kind of insulting but it's so hilarious I can't hate it. Sceptile beating the Darkrai and Pikachu tying Latios were great moments that allowed Ash to shine in defeat. It's a blatant asspull by the writers but it's a fun episode to watch and I never really thought Ash could win that league anyway, so he had to lose somehow.
Katie and sons were all, like, fine. I didn't like Morrison wasting two of his Pokemon by phoning it in, the rushed nature of Harrison, or losing to ****ing Meowth in boots. Katie is probably the show's blandest full battle but it's passable.
Alain and Cameron were both actively insulting, with the result of both ruining the battles. In Alain's case, the Sawyer battle was still a better watch irrespective of the final result, but at least it looked good. The Cameron fight is the show's nadir. It was Ash's 5th league campaign and he lost to an idiot who thought he only needed 5 Pokemon, and most importantly he did not make progress compared to the previous campaign.
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TheNewGuy
Well-Known Member
Yeah some parts of those two battles seem like the (hated) Alain/Leon battle in how rushed they are. I've got time for the Gary fight because it's Ash/Gary, Charizard/Blastoise, but there's a lot of bad there.
You're right, also, about the way the newer battles are held to a different, and much higher, standard. My all-time favourite post on this forum is one that contained this steaming pile of garbage re: Ash/Paul, posted not long after that episode aired:
Like, attacks colliding is such a feature of this anime it's practically a cliché, but when you're desperately searching for a reason to hate on the new thing and to make the mythical Ash/Gary seem like the better fight, you'll settle for any criticism I suppose - even if it makes no sense.
The nitpicking of Ash/Cynthia mirrors that. Criticism is fine in isolation, sure. But in a thread like this that invites direct comparison, it's important to take a hollistic approach and to judge the battles evenly. That didn't happen when I asked if Ash/Paul was the best battle around the time it aired (as seen in the above quoted post) and perhaps it's not happening now with Ash/Cynthia.
Ragnarok4
2024
Parody Tier LMFAO
DayQuil95
Well-Known Member
Rewatched my favorite battles recently, and honestly, I now feel like my bias for some battles clouded my judgment a little when ranking them, most namely Vs Kukui, Vs Cynthia, and Vs Alain. An updated list of mine would be:
1. Ash vs Paul (SL).
2. Ash vs Sawyer.
3. Ash vs Cynthia.
4. Ash vs Kukui.
5. Ash vs Gary.
6. Ash vs Alain.
7. Ash vs Paul (LA).
8. Ash vs Drake.
9. Ash vs Katie.
10. Ash vs Tobias.
11. Ash vs Harrison.
12. Ash vs Tyson.
13. Ash vs Morrison.
14. Ash vs Cameron.
I was too keen on favoring animation over legitimate strategy usage and emotional weight when making it, which led me to put the likes of Vs Alain and Vs Kukui over Vs Cynthia, which is one of the most strategy-heavy 6v6s so far in the anime.
SerGoldenhandtheJust
Deluded Dreamer
It honestly makes me sad how the ending of Ash vs Alain only makes it lower down in so many of people's lists, ignoring the fantastic battle that happened before that is way better written than Sawyer's
DayQuil95
Well-Known Member
I really respect why you'd think that but ngl, I prefer Sawyer in every aspect over Ash vs Alain, because for once Ash wasn't fighting someone that he caught up to, he was fighting someone who managed to catch up to him after a whole series, it felt like a breath of fresh air from seeing Ash as this eternal underdog that couldn't be allowed to have more experience than opposing trainers, in a way Sawyer felt like what Trip should, and could have been having he been properly written.
Seeing Sawyer prepare an entire strategy to take down Ash, meticulously study every step Ash did, and build up his entire team with the sole purpose of beating his friend and mentor felt so fun to watch, and then to see Ash have to push himself to his 100% without holding back in order to counter Sawyer's strategies through the battle with some of the craziest strategies he's done in the anime, which then concluded in a blaze of glory for both sides, Sawyer was one step away from beating Ash, and Ash managed to prove his and Greninja's worth when they are at their natural state and under no stress.
I love Vs Alain as much as the next dude, but it simply held not much more weight to me when compared to Vs Sawyer, simply because Vs Sawyer had so much energy behind it, we got to see a godly animated battle, hear to Iku Z, see some of the best strategies in the anime from both sides, and feel like both trainers were really doing their best and struggling with something that has been set up since much earlier, as we could see that Sawyer struggled to get there, and his growth was very deserved with how much effort he put in. While Alain lacked the same music as Vs Sawyer, had arguably more lacking strategies that felt like they wanted to get down to Greninja vs Charizard faster (the strategies were still amazing, I'm just saying they were comparatively inferior), and didn't feel as deserving thanks to both Ash losing again, going against Greninja's entire arc, and Alain having just steamrolled everything up to that point only to win again.
From my point of view, the reason why VS Alain is in sixth is not solely because of Ash losing, but also because it just felt like more of a constant struggle that didn't have as much meaning or weight to it as much as VS Kukui, VS Gary, VS Sawyer, etc. Might sound like a weird review on the battles, and I get why a lot of people would disagree, but at least for me, VS Sawyer was simply the superior battle in terms of writing, choreography, and arguably animation at some points.
Ignition
We are so back Zygardebros
Ash vs Sawyer was just generally a better battle. The highlight of Ash vs Alain for me was Unfezant vs Talonflame. I didn't care much about Greninja vs Charizard tbh. It also helps that there's more emotional investment in the former. That's not to say Ash vs Alain was bad but Ash vs Sawyer was better even without Ash losing in the end.
sutellakiara
Shirona, my beloved...
Now think about how many people who're hailing Ash vs Cynthia to high heaven would be shitting on it like if their life depended on it had Ash lost.
Emotion trumps logic at the end of the day.
The journey mattering more than the destination has never been true and will never be. The destination matters just as much if not even more than it. A crappy conclusion retroactively sours everything before it since it meant there was zero payoff for everything beforehand.
If Ash had won against Alan it would have been considered the GOAT surpassing even Ash vs Paul in the eyes of most. No questions about it, but alas.
SerGoldenhandtheJust
Deluded Dreamer
This is a good analysis, but also I don't really feel it tbh. Like Sawyer's journey from a rookie to a top class trainer was too rushed imo, and i mean, what were the crazy strats shown by Ash aside from the Aegislash battle? I'm struggling to remember any, and the consecutive 2 KOs it had really was eye rolling and obvious they wanted to get to the climax already. Goodra vs Slurpuff in general was painful to watch
My main flaw with Ash vs Sawyer is that it feels less of a 6v6 and more of an overglorified flashy 3v3, while Ash vs Alain still felt like a proper 6v6. I honestly found it more flashy than making sense, esp with the frenzy plant spam, and while Sawyer came up with counters, Ash didn't really have those crazy strats imo, the writing of it in general felt weak which is more troubling than Ash vs Alain coz Sawyer was supposed to be this Conway esque high IQ trainer
Can't speak for others but even if Ash won against Alain, it won't beat vs Paul for me, and I'm honestly happy he lost instead seeing what happened afterwards, alola win feels so much more rewarding to me
And yeah I agree with you that many would have hated Ash vs Cynthia if Ash lost, but that doesn't discredit the amount of people enjoying it even before we knew the result, and I'm pretty sure less people would have been angry than Ash vs Alain tbh
Ryker101
Well-Known Member
I think Ash vs Sawyer is better as well. Tbh even before Greninja vs Charizard I didn’t like the writing with Alain’s battle. Pikachu taking down 2 psuedos is fun but it came at the expense of other mons imo. I think Goodra vs Tyranitar would’ve been a cooler matchup, they’re both bulky and weather changing psuedos. It’d make its defeat against Bisharp better too. Ofc Noivern’s loss was so annoying to me. Not just jobbing but how Ash just threw it out without scouting for Alain’s next pokemon. It feels like he just gave him a free ko, cause Alain just had the switch advantage and could swap a good counter against it. Talonflame vs Unfezant looked sick tho
Then there’s Bisharp. It had a good strategy but really made me wonder why Alain never used it in the league before. He clearly wasn’t interested in being a good sport and it surely would’ve gotten some quick KOs. It feels weird to me how they hyped up him using only Charizard and Metagross but revealed he had this super strong mon last minute. I doubt Alain would care about keeping it hidden anyway
Xuxuba
Well-Known Member
Taking into account each reappearence showed a small progress and that there was a gap of over 60 episodes between his debut and their full battle, i don't think his arc was rushed especially for a series that is supposed to be action packed and fast paced. He also wasn't introduced as a complete newbie without any previous experience like Trip was, he did obtain some hard-to-get badges prior to meeting Ash and he had traveled two regions before, he was just more inexperienced than Ash at that point and lacked more practical skills.
Honestly, i think some people are just used to characters taking way too long to evolve their pokémon. But it really shouldn't take them that long if they focus and train consistently, unless if it's to stretch out an arc due to the weekly nature of the show. Granted it can be annoying when some evolutions happen off-screen, but Sawyer is a recurring rival and not a MC, some of the evolutions are bound to happen off-screen and at least it happened gradually. Keep in mind, this is a show that does that even to the protagonist, like with Ash and Naganadel.
I also don't understand some people's problem with ties. I mean, if they were able to bring down a pokémon that could be a threat to the entire team, then their contribution was still useful.
That's actually something quite common in Pokémon's competitive scenario and it doesn't mean that the pokémon didn't fill it's role.
Honestly, i think some people are just used to characters taking way too long to evolve their pokémon. But it really shouldn't take them that long if they focus and train consistently, unless if it's to stretch out an arc due to the weekly nature of the show. Granted it can be annoying when some evolutions happen off-screen, but Sawyer is a recurring rival and not a MC, some of the evolutions are bound to happen off-screen and at least it happened gradually. Keep in mind, this is a show that does that even to the protagonist, like with Ash and Naganadel.
I also don't understand some people's problem with ties. I mean, if they were able to bring down a pokémon that could be a threat to the entire team, then their contribution was still useful.
That's actually something quite common in Pokémon's competitive scenario and it doesn't mean that the pokémon didn't fill it's role.
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SerGoldenhandtheJust
Deluded Dreamer
Then they shouldnt have made him too much of a rookie in his initial appearance with Ash. It should have shown he had actually travelled Hoenn before and had experience, rather it felt as if he was born in Hoenn but Kalos was his first time journeying. Compare that to Barry, who similarly debuted later in the series and had few badges, but felt more competent.
I dont have problem with ties as a concept, but they felt too lazily used in the Sawyer battle as a way to cheaply end the battles and get rid of the mons for the main playing field. Esp with Slurpuff and Goodra, that really stretched the battle
SerGoldenhandtheJust
Deluded Dreamer
??????
Are you pretending to have lived under a rock the last few months in Serebii or?
Ignition
We are so back Zygardebros
I disagree with the notion of Sawyer's growth being too fast but people have been saying that since he defeated Iris & Drasna with his 2 most recent Pokémon (which I agree with).
Xuxuba
Well-Known Member
His badge progression was more than enough of a hint if you ask me. You wouldn't go from just obtaining your first Pokémon to challenging Valerie by that point.
Barry achieved pretty much nothing, from start to finish, and at least Sawyer managed to beat Ash once and got rid of one of his main rivals by the end of it, so i fail to see how Saywer was less competent than Barry. I myself am a fan of Barry and he is one of my favorite rivals personality wise but even at their first introduction, Sawyer showed more willingness to learn and train than Barry ever did.
Goodra vs Slurpuff had Sawyer essentially doing the countershield strategy with Fairy Wind and Ash allowing Goodra to take a considerable amount of damage so it'd be able to use Bide since his dragon moves wouldn't affect a fairy and Sawyer would counter Ice Beam with Flamethrower as he had done before.
If Ash didn't take Slurpuff down he could cause damage to his ace Greninja which is half Dark and make it easier for Mega Sceptile to revenge kill AG, so Goodra did amazingly well by controlling that threat especially since it had the type disadvantage.
So you have some of the best animation of this show, proper strategy (which unlike you suggest weren't just limited to the Aegislash battle) and actual development coming from both trainers. Hence why i have a hard time seeing how it was "lazy".
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SerGoldenhandtheJust
Deluded Dreamer
Sorry I dont think my post was clear, I didnt mean Barry is more competent than Sawyer as a whole, just that in the beginning he gave more of a vibe of being competent and not a rookie while Sawyer didnt. Yeah he had one badge I think? Dont remember it being Valerie's badge and heck didnt his episodes in Laverre city have him being destroyed by Spritzee? It doesnt really help me ease into Sawyer's transition more. I just looked up the episode to make sure I was right about this and Im pretty sure they never explicitly stated he journeyed throughout Hoenn, just that he battled a tailow, met Steven and eventually came to Kalos. Nothing Indicates he ever fully journeyed in Hoenn like Ash did. So to just see this kid who we first saw being easily beaten by Clemont and then by Ash with a treecko, Slurpuff and a bagon I think, also being beaten by Valerie but shown to have some smarts to then have earned 4 more badges by next appearance, and then more and more just feels a bit too much. I think it would have helped if he appeared way before in the series tbh, because from when he appeared, he just seemed to be on a fasttrack of quick evolutions, strong mons and even earning all the badges before Ash did when he had one badge compared to Ash's 5. So yeah, he still feels rushed to me
For the Aegislash thingie I was referring to Ash's strats as I dont remember him using any other strats perse, was not talking about Sawyer. And ig a difference of opinion, but Slurpuff vs Goodra still felt painful to watch and boring, something which no other matchup felt in that battle and it really dragged it down. When I call it lazy, I mean in terms of the structure of 2 consecutive KOs to just bring the battle to the main event, without taking in switch ins or anything. I just dont find this battle as well written as most and its moreso the structure that really brings it down for me. Still an amazing battle dont get me wrong, I just feel Ash vs Alain was better in all accounts except a satisfying climax