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Ranking Ash's Full Battles.

sutellakiara

Shirona, my beloved...
Ash made it to top 16 in his first league while being a cocky dumb brat. Why does Shota hitting Top 4 bothers people so much is beyond me when Shota was always shown to be a smart, resourceful and willing to learn dude.
And who was learning of from an experienced trainer instead of going solo.
And he tryharded like crazy to specifically counterteam Ash too. Him being able to match him during their battle doesn't seem that far-fetched either.
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
Sorry I dont think my post was clear, I didnt mean Barry is more competent than Sawyer as a whole, just that in the beginning he gave more of a vibe of being competent and not a rookie while Sawyer didnt. Yeah he had one badge I think? Dont remember it being Valerie's badge and heck didnt his episodes in Laverre city have him being destroyed by Spritzee? It doesnt really help me ease into Sawyer's transition more. I just looked up the episode to make sure I was right about this and Im pretty sure they never explicitly stated he journeyed throughout Hoenn, just that he battled a tailow, met Steven and eventually came to Kalos. Nothing Indicates he ever fully journeyed in Hoenn like Ash did. So to just see this kid who we first saw being easily beaten by Clemont and then by Ash with a treecko, Slurpuff and a bagon I think, also being beaten by Valerie but shown to have some smarts to then have earned 4 more badges by next appearance, and then more and more just feels a bit too much. I think it would have helped if he appeared way before in the series tbh, because from when he appeared, he just seemed to be on a fasttrack of quick evolutions, strong mons and even earning all the badges before Ash did when he had one badge compared to Ash's 5. So yeah, he still feels rushed to me

For the Aegislash thingie I was referring to Ash's strats as I dont remember him using any other strats perse, was not talking about Sawyer. And ig a difference of opinion, but Slurpuff vs Goodra still felt painful to watch and boring, something which no other matchup felt in that battle and it really dragged it down. When I call it lazy, I mean in terms of the structure of 2 consecutive KOs to just bring the battle to the main event, without taking in switch ins or anything. I just dont find this battle as well written as most and its moreso the structure that really brings it down for me. Still an amazing battle dont get me wrong, I just feel Ash vs Alain was better in all accounts except a satisfying climax
Even without doing a full-on badge quest in Hoenn, traveling different regions is a huge experience in itself and the flashbacks we did get were more than enough to show that he didn't immediately leave to Kalos as soon as he got his first pokémon. Correct me if i am wrong as it has been quite some time but later on we get to see the box containing his badges which the order displayed hints that he had more than one prior to meeting Ash/challenging Valerie, including Viola's badge (which Ash needed a rematch to get) and what appears to be either anime exclusive badges or new versions of the heat and rain badges from Hoenn. As for Barry, he certainly didn't do much by that point to suggest he was far more competent, especially when he was pretty much treated as comic relief in his introduction. Either way, keep in mind, you can be competent while being fairly inexperienced. Just look at Ash now, he has one of the lowest experience points at the PWC yet he managed to reach the finals.
He was also often regarded as competent in the xy/xyz series but that didn't stop him from having a hard time facing many Kalos gym leaders, so i don't see how Sawyer losing to Valerie proves he is incompetent, as much as it proves how tough her anime counterpart actually was, especially since even in Sawyer's introduction he was shown to be consistently training, learning from his mistakes and keeping tabs on how to improve.

Overall, i am not saying he was some sort of pro when he was first introduced, but he certainly wasn't as much of a complete, incompetent rookie as you'd like to suggest he was.
 
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SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Ash made it to top 16 in his first league while being a cocky dumb brat. Why does Shota hitting Top 4 bothers people so much is beyond me when Shota was always shown to be a smart, resourceful and willing to learn dude.
And who was learning of from an experienced trainer instead of going solo.
Again, the concept isnt a problem for me, the execution is. Have Sawyer appear earlier and make it less jarring and I wouldnt have minded that much. But as it is, it feels rushed to me
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Even without doing a full-on badge quest in Hoenn, traveling different regions is a huge experience in itself and the flashbacks we did get were more than enough to show that he didn't immediately leave to Kalos as soon as he got his first pokémon. Later on, we also get to see the box containing his badges which hints that he had more than one prior to meeting Ash/challenging Valerie, including Viola's badge (which Ash needed a rematch to get) and what appears to be either either anime exclusive badges or new versions of the heat and rain badges from Hoenn.
Idk, the flashbacks dont really sell me on him having had a whole journey in Hoenn necessairly, especially when he was pretty much shown as a rookie with base evolved mons when he first appeared. Kinda hard to buy hes been on a journey before his first meeting with Ash. Also, the badges youre talking about are when he appears later, im talking about him having one badge only when he first appeared. Im pretty sure that episode explicitly stated he had one gym badge and then when he returns he has 4 more to make a total of 5, correct me if im wrong though
As for Barry, he certainly didn't do much by that point to suggest he was far more competent, especially when he was pretty much treated as comic relief in his introduction. Either way, keep in mind, you can be competent while being fairly inexperienced. Just look at Ash now, he has one of the lowest experience points at the PWC yet he managed to reach the finals.
He wasnt treated as a rookie either, which is my point. I could buy Barry still getting through the league and getting badges before Ash did despite debuting late, unlike Sawyer who was portrayed as a rookie with a potential for High IQ. Again, if they wanted to play the rookie angle with him, I wouldnt mind if he appeared way before and was more of a rival from the beginning and appeared around the time Sanpei appeared or something. Or if they wanted to keep him when he appeared, dont show him as a rookie, which is what it felt to me
He was also often regarded as competent in the xy/xyz series but that didn't stop him from having a hard time facing many Kalos gym leaders, so i don't see how Sawyer losing to Valerie proves he is incompetent, as much as it proves how tough her anime counterpart actually were, especially since even in Sawyer's introduction he was shown to be consistently training, learning from his mistakes and keeping tabs on how to improve.
The thing is, Sawyer lost quite easily, like we have seen rookies being beaten, unlike when Ash struggled or lost.
Overall, i am not saying he was some sort of pro when he was first introduced, but he certainly wasn't as much of a complete, incompetent rookie as you'd like to suggest he was.
Im not saying he was incompetent, but the vibe I got was he was still pretty much a beginner trainer aka rookie who had potential and had the smarts, but had to grow first. I dont believe enough was shown to convince ME otherwise, and so I personally found him to be rushed, even if others did not. I just would have liked him to debut earlier around when Sanpei came, or be portrayed more experienced while maintaining the mentor role Ash had. Just my take
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
Idk, the flashbacks dont really sell me on him having had a whole journey in Hoenn necessairly, especially when he was pretty much shown as a rookie with base evolved mons when he first appeared. Kinda hard to buy hes been on a journey before his first meeting with Ash. Also, the badges youre talking about are when he appears later, im talking about him having one badge only when he first appeared. Im pretty sure that episode explicitly stated he had one gym badge and then when he returns he has 4 more to make a total of 5, correct me if im wrong though

He wasnt treated as a rookie either, which is my point. I could buy Barry still getting through the league and getting badges before Ash did despite debuting late, unlike Sawyer who was portrayed as a rookie with a potential for High IQ. Again, if they wanted to play the rookie angle with him, I wouldnt mind if he appeared way before and was more of a rival from the beginning and appeared around the time Sanpei appeared or something. Or if they wanted to keep him when he appeared, dont show him as a rookie, which is what it felt to me

The thing is, Sawyer lost quite easily, like we have seen rookies being beaten, unlike when Ash struggled or lost.

Im not saying he was incompetent, but the vibe I got was he was still pretty much a beginner trainer aka rookie who had potential and had the smarts, but had to grow first. I dont believe enough was shown to convince ME otherwise, and so I personally found him to be rushed, even if others did not. I just would have liked him to debut earlier around when Sanpei came, or be portrayed more experienced while maintaining the mentor role Ash had. Just my take
Evolution itself is not enough to attest whether anyone has just started their journey. Ash himself had many unevolved pokémon for long periods of time even after facing so many leagues (some of which never evolved).

As for the amount of badges i will be sure to rewatch when i do have the time.
Regardless, at least *some* time had past between Sawyer getting Treecko and meeting Ash. You don't just get your starter, catch Hoenn pokémon, go from one region to another, obtain a hard-to-get badge and travel by foot through multiple cities/routes without getting at least some experience.

Hence why i couldn't call him a *complete* rookie let alone an incompetent one, which you did call him when comparing to Barry. I would have agreed with you if you said Barry was perhaps more experienced, but far more competent is not the adjective i would use for a character that was mostly used for jokes and rarely seen as an actual threat, even when introduced. At the end of the day he lost to Fantina just like Sawyer did to Valerie and he got just as easily beaten by Ash aswell with his Chimchar taking about 10~20 seconds to take down Barry's Staraptor...
 
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SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Evolution itself is not enough to attest whether anyone has just started their journey. Ash himself had many unevolved pokémon for long periods of time even after facing so many leagues (some of which never evolved).

As for the amount of badges i will be sure to rewatch when i do have the time.
Regardless, at least *some* time had past between Sawyer getting Treecko and meeting Ash. You don't just get your starter, catch Hoenn pokémon, go from one region to another, obtain a hard-to-get badge and travel by foot through multiple cities/routes without getting at least some experience.

Hence why i couldn't him a *complete* rookie let alone an incompetent one, which you did call him of when comparing to Barry. I would have agreed with you if you said Barry was perhaps more experienced, but far more competent is a bit of a stretch.
What I meant with the Barry comparison was more how in his debut he felt more experienced, even tho overall Sawyer > Barry that I agree with you. Ig at this point its agree to disagree, I understand why this stuff may not bother others but it does kinda with me, again I wouldnt have minded it much if Sawyer was introduced earlier lol. Also, this doesnt mean I dont like Ash vs Saywer rivalry on its own! I still love it, love XY made it fresh with the mentor approach, and that battle was still amazing, I just feel like Alain battle is too underrated in face of it and it had glaring flaws for me with its structure and me finding Sawyer a bit rushed, but I still like him and Ash's rivalry/battle a lot!
I just really miss when Rivals and evil teams were from the start of the series, been so long since thats happened.
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
What I meant with the Barry comparison was more how in his debut he felt more experienced, even tho overall Sawyer > Barry that I agree with you. Ig at this point its agree to disagree.
If you meant more experienced instead of more incompetent, then i can agree with you. Otherwise, let's agree to disagree.
 
WARNING: This list may contain some surprising choices. And some not-so-surprising ones.
BattleWritingSpectaclePacingConclusionFinal Score
Ash vs. Kukui1010101040
Ash vs. Sawyer8.110101038.1
Ash vs. Alain810101038
Ash vs. Katie106101036
Ash vs. Gary105.9101035.9
Ash vs. Drake86101034
Ash vs. Tobias9781034
Ash vs. Tyson10571032
Ash vs. Harrison1057527
Ash vs. Cameron696526
Ash vs. Morrison757625
Ash vs. CynthiaTBWTBWTBWTBWTBW
Ash vs. DP rival League00000
Ash vs. DP rival Lake Acuity00000

Many of the older ones would probably be higher, but since spectacle goes up with time, they lose out quite badly in that department. Tried to make it not matter too much, but its influence can still be seen.

EDIT: Table issues fixed.
How does Ash vs Alain get a 10 in the conclusion. Greninja loosing made no sense and Ash should have won
Also I think you are the biggest Sinnoh/DP hater on this forum
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
Ranking full battles for each region:
1. Kanto - 8/10
2. Johto - 8.5/10
3. Hoenn - 8.9/10
4. Sinnoh - 10/10
5. Unova - 8/10
6. Kalos - 10/10
7. Alola - 0/10
8. Galar - 7.5/10
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
WARNING: This list may contain some surprising choices. And some not-so-surprising ones.
BattleWritingSpectaclePacingConclusionFinal Score
Ash vs. Kukui1010101040
Ash vs. Sawyer8.110101038.1
Ash vs. Alain810101038
Ash vs. Katie106101036
Ash vs. Gary105.9101035.9
Ash vs. Drake86101034
Ash vs. Tobias9781034
Ash vs. Tyson10571032
Ash vs. Harrison1057527
Ash vs. Cameron696526
Ash vs. Morrison757625
Ash vs. CynthiaTBWTBWTBWTBWTBW
Ash vs. DP rival League00000
Ash vs. DP rival Lake Acuity00000

Many of the older ones would probably be higher, but since spectacle goes up with time, they lose out quite badly in that department. Tried to make it not matter too much, but its influence can still be seen.

EDIT: Table issues fixed.

This is so hilariously irrational that you come off as a ****ing cartoon.
 

doofinc

get rillaboomed
Finally got through all full battles so far so posting my rank.

Took some creative liberties with the category names to more accurately reflect my thought process.


BattleWriting/StrategyChoreography/VisualsStory ImpactSatisfactionTotal
Ash vs. Paul (LotV)109101039
Ash vs. Kukui810101038
Ash vs. Sawyer71081035
Ash vs. Alain9108633
Ash vs. Cynthia879832
Ash vs. Katie964928
Ash vs. Paul (Acuity)768627
Ash vs. Gary576624
Ash vs. Drake447621
Ash vs. Harrison556521
Ash vs. Tobias357520
Ash vs. Cameron395320
Ash vs. Morrison22228
Ash vs. Tyson23128

Miscellaneous thoughts:
  • I don't do the whole "give older battles some slack for doing things worse" thing, sorry
  • The choreography during Ash vs. Cameron is legitimately really good, but good god everything else surrounding that battle was extremely bizarre
  • I was not expecting to enjoy Ash vs. Cameron more than vs. Morrison and vs. Tyson but that's what happens when one battle actually has a good quality while the other two were insanely boring across the board
    • Ash vs. Tyson legitimately seemed like they were trying to rush out the Hoenn League
  • The only reason the writing for Ash vs. Gary is at a 5 is because of Blastoise vs Charizard, it would be like a 2 otherwise
  • Ash vs. Katie was a surprise hit on my end
  • I lowkey like Ash vs. Alain more than Ash vs. Sawyer, but I don't want to fiddle with the numbers or add some kind of factor to each category, so I'll leave it like that
  • All battles before DP were dub; I tried to not let that influence me but it might've; it happens.
 
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Ryker101

Well-Known Member
Alright I rewatched Ash vs Alain and Ash vs Cynthia earlier and I reckon Alain’s battle was still better overall. Think I was too harsh on it looking back.
- Animation wise it’s incredible, definitely clears here
- Matchups were pretty good except for Noivern and Goodra’s, however they still had better performances than Dragonite and Gengar
- Ash vs Cynthia has better buildup since it spans multiple series, but Alain’s one isn’t far behind, the hype for it was crazy
- Ash vs Cynthia has better strategies from both ends tho

Only gripes I have are some questionable writing decisions. Like Ash using Noivern instead of Hawlucha for Weavile, them not showing off hydration against Bisharp, Greninja not using boosted water shurken against base Charizard, Charizard taking too much damage and the orange shuriken appearing out of nowhere. Ofc Ash losing as well. But it’s still a great fight regardless. Meanwhile with Ash vs Cynthia Dragonite and Gengar went down too quickly, dynamax Togekiss only spammed one move (which didn’t do much) and the animation holds it back imo

I’d still place them at 4) and 5) respectively, behind Sawyer, Kukui and finally Paul
 
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janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
ttleWriting/StrategyChoreography/VisualsStory ImpactSatisfactionTotal
Ash vs. Paul (LotV)108101038
Ash vs. Kukui00.00000100
0.000001
Ash vs. Sawyer1010q01040
Ash vs. Alain101010939
Ash vs. Cynthia879832
Ash vs. Katie964928
Ash vs. Paul (Acuity)768627
Ash vs. Tobias449724
Ash vs. Gary576624
Ash vs. Drake547723
Ash vs. Harrison556521
Ash vs. Cameron395017
Ash vs. Morrison22228
Ash vs. Tyson23128
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
I don't really care for these tables because I find it a constrictive way of expressing opinions - and assigns all of the criteria equal weighting, when really their importance will vary.

Also you get a lot of extremes and I'm really not a fan of extremes in general.
 

doofinc

get rillaboomed
I don't really care for these tables because I find it a constrictive way of expressing opinions - and assigns all of the criteria equal weighting, when really their importance will vary.

Also you get a lot of extremes and I'm really not a fan of extremes in general.
Most of the extremes are from people who are notorious for extreme bias on certain topics that they end up with 10 or 0, no in between.

I think if you take those out, you get rid of a lot of the extremes and then most of the other opinions are relatively sane.

Tables overall are a mixed bag IMO - I agree that not having explicit fields makes it a lot less restrictive, especially if category weight varies between matches, but it makes it a bit difficult to compare certain aspects of fights, especially across so many full battles.

Positives and negatives for either or - I opted to do the table just to match all the other posts but even then I don't fully agree with the outcome when categorized.
 
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