Ranking Ash's Pokémon from Strongest to Weakest

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

I think Ash's Charizard could win even if he just used regular Mega Evolution since Ash's Charizard had better training overall.

I could see Charizard winning using Mega Evolution too just not under Ash because I honestly don't think he's that good of a trainer compared to someone like Paul and Virgil.Charizard would need continue his training using the keystone over at the Charicific valley,I'm sure Liza could help.

 

[Genaller]

Just gonna post this here: https://forums.serebii.net/threads/ash-greninja-battle-viability-assessment-compilation.662620/

As for a tier list this is the 1 I’ve come up with after years of thinking over it:

Z+: (Ash-)Greninja
Z-: Peakachu
S+: Charizard
S: (Blaze) Infernape
S-: Sceptile
A+: Snorlax
A: Krookodile, Bulbasaur, Heracross
A-: Gible, Torkoal
B+: Swellow, Gliscor, Squirtle, Hawlucha
B: Glalie, Kingler
B-: Talonflame, Goodra, Pignite, Torterra
C+: Buizel, Corphish, Quilava, Leavanny
C: Bayleef, Staraptor, Noivern, Tauros, Snivy
C-: Noctowl, Donphan, Palpitoad
D+: Scraggy
D: Oshawatt, Totodile
D-: Boldore, Unfezzant
Limbo: Butterfree, Pidgeot, Primeape, Muk, Lapras

Note that each pokémon is where they’re at as of their last battle. Admittedly I’d be way better at arguing for each of my placements at about this time last year than I am now though I’m still fairly confident in this list with an error bound of at most 1 sub-letter grade.

 

[Dream Lad]

I could see Charizard winning using Mega Evolution too just not under Ash because I honestly don't think he's that good of a trainer compared to someone like Paul and Virgil.Charizard would need continue his training using the keystone over at the Charicific valley,I'm sure Liza could help.

Current Charizard wouldn't even need Mega Evolution to be able to beat the other aces (and that includes Ash-Greninja and Blaze Infernape). With Mega Evolution, it would be overkill.

How is Ash not a good trainer lol? He beat Paul at the league, and was good throughout XY.

 

[Genaller]

Oh yeah just a few other things I wanna get off my chest:

- Vs Alain was Peakachu’s greatest feat till date. In particular Pikachu’s ‘peak performance progression’ goes like so when using my tier ratings: Surge2 (B-) -> OI Drake (B) -> Clair2 (B+) -> Juan (A-) -> Tyson (A) -> Lucy (A+) -> Anabel2 (S-) -> Brandon3 (S) -> Tobias (S+) -> Alain3 (Z-).

- Ash’s Charizard loses mid difficulty to the Champion Base Ace/Elite 4 Mega Ace lvl Ash-Greninja.

- Ash-Greninja vs Snorlax goes like Ash-Greninja vs Wulfric’s Base Abamasnow where A-G needs plenty of hits to win, but ends up effortlessly tossing Snorlax around like a rag-doll with Snorlax getting zero offense in before being KOed (generally based on my tier lists pokémon that have a difference of 2 full letter grades or higher implies that the stronger can beat the weaker with negligible difficulty).

- Ash-Greninja would eviscerate Ash’s Hoenn League team 6-0 with no difficulty (every pokémon on that team including vs Tyson Peakachu (A) and Grovyle (B) would be over 2 full letter grades below it).

- Oh and in case anyone forgot Trevor’s Mega Charizard Y got wrecked with negligible difficulty. Oh right there was also this Charizard that Jessie used once which lost to Ash’s Totodile who seems to be unanimously agreed on as 1 of Ash’s weakest pokémon. Huh.... I guess the writers are capable of making the Charizard species fail horribly; what a shocker!


Ahhh... much better ^_^.

 

[Dream Lad]

- Ash-Greninja vs Snorlax goes like Ash-Greninja vs Wulfric’s Base Abamasnow where A-G needs plenty of hits to win, but ends up effortlessly tossing Snorlax around like a rag-doll with Snorlax getting zero offense in before being KOed (generally based on my tier lists pokémon that have a difference of 2 full letter grades or higher implies that the stronger can beat the weaker with negligible difficulty).

Are you talking about the same Abomasnow that lost to Hawlucha? Clearly Snorlax is only at that level...

Or are you talking about the slower Mega Abomasnow that was smacking Ash-Greninja until Ash used Ice Shard skates + cover of smoke to finally come in close and grab the win?

Snorlax gets zero offense in? Lol, if that's what you want to believe, that's fine, but I don't think this impression of Ash-Greninja that you have is anywhere close to what was shown on screen.

- Ash-Greninja would eviscerate Ash’s Hoenn League team 6-0 with no difficulty (every pokémon on that team including vs Tyson Peakachu (A) and Grovyle (B) would be over 2 full letter grades below it).

- Oh and in case anyone forgot Trevor’s Mega Charizard Y got wrecked with negligible difficulty. Oh right there was also this Charizard that Jessie used once which lost to Ash’s Totodile who seems to be unanimously agreed on as 1 of Ash’s weakest pokémon. Huh.... I guess the writers are capable of making the Charizard species fail horribly; what a shocker!

Ahhh... much better ^_^.

Well I guess reminder that Greninja lost 3 times to a Charizard.

 

[Genaller]

Are you talking about the same Abomasnow that lost to Hawlucha? Clearly Snorlax is only at that level...

Inadmissible. Already explained in the refutations section of the essay I linked.

Or are you talking about the slower Mega Abomasnow that was smacking Ash-Greninja until Ash used Ice Shard skates + cover of smoke to finally come in close and grab the win?

Nah that 1 gave it a solid lower mid - mid difficulty fight and said M-Abamasnow (I have it at S+) would beat Snorlax with mid difficulty.

Snorlax gets zero offense in? Lol, if that's what you want to believe, that's fine, but I don't think this impression of Ash-Greninja that you have is anywhere close to what was shown on screen.

The sheer difference in speed is too great. Snorlax loses with negligible despite needing many hits to be beaten, and would also lose with negligible difficulty (albeit for potentially different reasons) to Lance’s Dragonite, Steven’s Base Metagross, Cynthia’s Garchomp, Alder’s Bouffalant and Diantha’s Base Gardevoir.

Well I guess reminder that Greninja lost 3 times to a Charizard.

Factually wrong. It was KOed 2 times; please get your facts straight lest you want people to believe that you’re incapable of comprehending what you see ^_^. A Mega Charizard X that was very close to Champion Mega Ace lvl ergo would wreck Ash’s Charizard low diff at best... yeah sure A-G is decisively below that MC -X.

 

[Dream Lad]

Inadmissible. Already explained in the refutations section of the essay I lined. Nah that 1 gave it a solid lower mid - mid difficulty fight and said M-Abamasnow (I have it at S+) would beat Snorlax with mid difficulty.

"Playing for keeps" is supposed to render the entirety of Abomasnow vs Hawlucha inadmissible? Lol, that's an awfully convenient headcanon. It doesn't even fly considering he wouldn't have utilized that devastating Ice Body strategy if that were the case.

I don't think Snorlax loses "mid difficulty" to Mega Abomasnow, in fact I think Snorlax outright wins this battle, and I absolutely disagree with the opinion that Snorlax loses with "zero offense" and like a "ragdoll" to any of Ash's other Pokemon, and that includes Pikachu and Charizard.

The sheer difference in speed is too great. Snorlax loses with negligible despite needing many hits to be beaten, and would also lose with negligible difficulty (albeit for potentially different reasons) to Lance’s Dragonite, Steven’s Base Metagross, Cynthia’s Garchomp, Alder’s Bouffalant and Diantha’s Base Gardevoir.

Well all those Pokemon probably defeat Ash-Greninja too in a formal fight, so not sure why that's a hit on Snorlax. And before you bring up Ash vs Diantha, that wasn't a formal battle. That just proved Ash-Greninja has amazing raw power when Diantha provided a situation for him to do a constant DBZ style blitzkrieg, but that doesn't imply him and Ash can defeat Elite 4/Champion Pokemon in a real match.

Factually wrong. It was KOed 2 times; please get your facts straight lest you want people to believe that you’re incapable of comprehending what you see ^_^. A Mega Charizard X that was very close to Champion Mega Ace lvl ergo would wreck Ash’s Charizard low diff at best... yeah sure A-G is decisively below that.

Lol, okay dude, 2 times + a third time where Ash collapsed, so essentially a loss.

There is no way the anime would ever have Ash's Charizard losing easily to anybody on Ash's team "mid difficulty."

 

[Genaller]

"Playing for keeps" is supposed to render the entirety of Abomasnow vs Hawlucha inadmissible? Lol, that's an awfully convenient headcanon. It doesn't even fly considering he wouldn't have utilized that devastating Ice Body strategy if that were the case.

First of all strawman; I stated with Abamasnow specifically and not in general. 2nd of all Wulfric being a gym leader has a high range of control over his pokémon’s stat variables includong tanking (which can be altered depending on how much a pokémon braces for impact).

I don't think Snorlax loses "mid difficulty" to Mega Abomasnow, in fact I think Snorlax outright wins this battle, and I absolutely disagree with the opinion that Snorlax loses with "zero offense" and like a "ragdoll" to any of Ash's other Pokemon, and that includes Pikachu and Charizard.

Snorlax’s best feat is against Greta which is outright inferior to Sceptile’s performance against Spencer. A-G is Champion Base Ace lvl/E4 Mega Ace lvl while Mega Abamasnow is well into the E4 Base Ace for gving it a decent fight, so yeah negligible diff and mid diff wins respectively.

Well all those Pokemon probably defeat Ash-Greninja too in a formal fight, so not sure why that's a hit on Snorlax. And before you bring up Ash vs Diantha, that wasn't a formal battle. That just proved Ash-Greninja has amazing raw power, but that doesn't imply him and Ash can defeat Elite 4/Champion Pokemon.

Nah it’s already been argued in the essay I’ve linked. Ash-Greninja >= Base Gardevoir and there’s no reason to assume any champion ace is outright better than the other in overall viability, so yeah it’s on par with all of them.

Lol, okay dude, 2 times + a third time where Ash collapsed, so essentially a loss.

And if you had eyes, you’d know Greninja didn’t faint therefore not a KO.

There is no way the anime would ever have Ash's Charizard losing easily to anybody on Ash's team "mid difficulty."

That’s a vacuous statement since we’re never getting this match in the anime period. Based on where I place them respectively, yup A-G beats Ash’s Zard mid diff.

 

[Dream Lad]

First of all strawman; I stated with Abamasnow specifically and not in general. 2nd of all Wulfric being a gym leader has a high range of control over his pokémon’s stat variables includong tanking (which can be altered depending on how much a pokémon braces for impact).

I should call you Mr. Strawman from now on because of how much you love to say it for everything ^_^.

Snorlax’s best feat is against Greta which is outright inferior to Sceptile’s performance against Spencer. A-G is Champion Base Ace lvl/E4 Mega Ace lvl while Mega Abamasnow is well into the E4 Base Ace for gving it a decent fight, so yeah negligible diff and mid diff wins respectively.

That's your headcanon/opinion though, which is totally okay because neither of us really know what's true, so I respectfully disagree.

Nah it’s already been argued in the essay I’ve linked. Ash-Greninja >= Base Gardevoir and there’s no reason to assume any champion ace is outright better than the other in overall viability, so yeah it’s on par with all of them.

I'm aware that you argued it in an essay, but your essay isn't fact, and I'm certain there are arguments and assumptions in there that some people would find problematic. IMO, I think Ash-Greninja might have the raw power of an Elite 4/Champion Pokemon, but just having power =/= winning battles whatsoever.

And if you had eyes, you’d know Greninja didn’t faint therefore not a KO. That’s a vacuous statement since we’re never getting this match in the anime period. Based on where I place them respectively, yup A-G beats Ash’s Zard mid diff.

Well thankfully I do have eyes, and my eyes tell me that current Charizard is probably by now as good as, if not better, than Greninja, and that it doesn't matter because Pikachu is always going to be the one who is going to get the ultimate glory .

 

[Genaller]

I should call you Mr. Strawman from now on because of how much you love to say it for everything ^_^.

Alright though the only actual 1 here is you at least if we’re going by the definition of the term.

That's your headcanon/opinion though, which is totally okay because neither of us really know what's true, so I respectfully disagree.

It’s a headcanon sure, but 1 that’s backed up by the show from multiple angles and makes far more sense than the alternative of ‘Hawlucha has substantially more attack power than Ash-Greninja’.

I'm aware that you argued it in an essay, but your essay isn't fact, and I'm certain there are arguments and assumptions in there that some people would find problematic. IMO, I think Ash-Greninja might have the raw power of an Elite 4/Champion Pokemon, but just having power =/= winning battles whatsoever.

It isn’t, but there’s yet to be an alternative view that’s as thorough as mine. Correction: power and also speed.

Well thankfully I do have eyes, and my eyes tell me that current Charizard is probably by now as good as, if not better, than Greninja, and that it doesn't matter because Pikachu is always going to be the one who is going to get the ultimate glory .

Charizard hasn’t been seen on-screen for about 2 sagas, so I guess your eyes must now see into the 4th-dimension xD. Nah A-G beats Zard mid diff, but sure a Pikachu at his peak battling with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt would be Ash’s best and would be the 1 to gain him ultimate glory.

 

[FullmetalJackie]

Just gonna post this here: https://forums.serebii.net/threads/ash-greninja-battle-viability-assessment-compilation.662620/

As for a tier list this is the 1 I’ve come up with after years of thinking over it:

Z+: (Ash-)Greninja
Z-: Peakachu
S+: Charizard
S: (Blaze) Infernape
S-: Sceptile
A+: Snorlax
A: Krookodile, Bulbasaur, Heracross
A-: Gible, Torkoal
B+: Swellow, Gliscor, Squirtle, Hawlucha
B: Glalie, Kingler
B-: Talonflame, Goodra, Pignite, Torterra
C+: Buizel, Corphish, Quilava, Leavanny
C: Bayleef, Staraptor, Noivern, Tauros, Snivy
C-: Noctowl, Donphan, Palpitoad
D+: Scraggy
D: Oshawatt, Totodile
D-: Boldore, Unfezzant
Limbo: Butterfree, Pidgeot, Primeape, Muk, Lapras

Note that each pokémon is where they’re at as of their last battle. Admittedly I’d be way better at arguing for each of my placements at about this time last year than I am now though I’m still fairly confident in this list with an error bound of at most 1 sub-letter grade.

I get that 'Peakachu' is supposed to be a reference to Pikachu when he's at his peak, but what kind of wordplay is 'Oshawatt'? And I disagree with Greninja's placement since I can't see how him losing to a Mega Charizard makes him better than Pokemon such as 'Peakachu' and Charizard who were able to beat Legendarys.

 

[Genaller]

I get that 'Peakachu' is supposed to be a reference to Pikachu when he's at his peak, but what kind of wordplay is 'Oshawatt'? And I disagree with Greninja's placement since I can't see how him losing to a Mega Charizard makes him better than Pokemon such as 'Peakachu' and Charizard who were able to beat Legendarys.

Erroneous spelling (I have visual impairment, so I have a tendency for typos).

Alright first of all assuming that you’ve read my essay do you or do you not agree with my placements of A-G being in the Champion Base Ace spectrum and/or the Elite 4 Mega Ace Spectrum?

The loss itself isn’t what’s important; it’s that A-G gave a performance against MC-X that was relatively superior to what Malva’s Mega Houndoom gave (according to Alain anyways).

Those legendary feats are impressive but they’re not enough to justify Peakachu and Charizard in the spectrums I mentioned above (at best you could argue their current shown peaks for the top end of the E4 Base Ace spectrum with the likes of Flint’s Infernape and Caitlin’s Gothitelle). I have no trouble admitting that a hypothetical Pikachu battling at his peak with 10MVT would surpass A-G and probably a hypothetical Mega Zard would as well (though I find this scenario far more debatable), but neither of them are better without having the aforementioned enhancements.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Current Charizard wouldn't even need Mega Evolution to be able to beat the other aces (and that includes Ash-Greninja and Blaze Infernape). With Mega Evolution, it would be overkill.

Charizard is stronger than Snorlax,Sceptile,Blaze Infernape and Haxachu but not Greninja when it's using Battle Bond.It using Mega Evolution is probably a tossup but without it I don't see it being stronger.Now without abilities Greninja is at the bottom of the S tier while Charizard at the very top.

How is Ash not a good trainer lol?

I don't think he truly trains his pokemon as hard as the others I mentioned above,especially Paul and Alain.Sceptile and maybe Infernape (if you don't count it previously being with Paul) are the strongest pokemon he's trained so far as a trainer.His Charizard,Gliscor,Squirtle got strong through another source,his Snorlax was already powerful before being captured,his Greninja has "battle bond/bond phenomenon" but that is something that had nothing to do with Ash's training,in it's base form it's weaker than Charizard,Sceptile,Infernape,Snorlax and arguably Pikachu.

He beat Paul at the league

He only beat Paul due to plot armor and even then it wasn't a real defeat,Paul should have won once Infernape fell to the ground for several seconds after getting hit by Electivire's Thunder but Electivire decided to let the match continue by stopping the referee from declaring it unable to battle.Plus Ash told Paul before that he wouldn't use Blaze yet he had to use it at the league.

 

[Dream Lad]

Alright though the only actual 1 here is you at least if we’re going by the definition of the term. It’s a headcanon sure, but 1 that’s backed up by the show from multiple angles and makes far more sense than the alternative of ‘Hawlucha has substantially more attack power than Ash-Greninja’.

I think simpler alternatives are:

1. Ash-Greninja's power may be not as high as you're making it out to be.

and/or

2. The anime contradicts itself all the time, and is inconsistent with the exact power levels of Pokemon. That's why applying logic equations (A > > B = C < D, ergo A > D) doesn't always work out, otherwise you're pigeon-holed into creating elaborate headcanons/theories, like for example, using the line "playing for keeps" to render Hawlucha vs Abomasnow inadmissible because it otherwise negate your logic algorithm of Ash-Greninja's power.

It isn’t, but there’s yet to be an alternative view that’s as thorough as mine. Correction: power and also speed. Charizard hasn’t been seen on-screen for about 2 sagas, so I guess your eyes must now see into the 4th-dimension xD. Nah A-G beats Zard mid diff, but sure a Pikachu at his peak battling with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt would be Ash’s best and would be the 1 to gain him ultimate glory.

Charizard is Ash's most experienced battler (experience matters in any fight), who is constantly training to become stronger.

Charizard held his own against an overpowered dream Entei back in Johto. By Battle Frontier, he defeated a legendary, unlike a certain Mega Charizard X that struggled against legendaries but did decisively defeat Ash-Greninja twice. Articuno wasn't battling randomly either, but being commanded by an elite Frontier Brain. Defeating a legendary > quality losses to a Mega Charizard X that struggled against legendaries. I'm aware you're going to say that Articuno isn't as powerful of a legendary as the ones that Mega Charizard X faced, but since Mega Charizard X was not at all on the level of those legendaries, it probably would have have fared better or beaten a legendary of Articuno's caliber instead, which is exactly what Charizard did all the way back in Battle Frontier.

In your words, Iris' Dragonite is quite powerful, and yet Charizard would have annihilated it with minimal effort and barely any damage if not for N's intervention. I think even by this point during Best Wishes, Charizard would be a tough opponent for Ash-Greninja.

So with even more training and experience, current Charizard would obviously be even more powerful. There's no way Ash's iconic Charizard, and the franchise's pet species, would ever get beaten "mid diff" by Ash-Greninja in a hypothetical battle (honestly more likely it's vice-versa). It would be an epic battle, not a laughable stomp.

Charizard is stronger than Snorlax,Sceptile,Blaze Infernape and Haxachu but not Greninja when it's using Battle Bond.It using Mega Evolution is probably a tossup but without it I don't see it being stronger.Now without abilities Greninja is at the bottom of the S tier while Charizard at the very top.

Conquered Charicific Valley. Held its own against an OP dream Entei. Triple KOs against Gary including Gary's Blastoise. Nearly defeated Harrison's Blaziken, and Harison would have won the tournament if Charizard didn't injure Blaziken that badly. Defeated an Articuno commanded by an elite Frontier Brain. Would have crushed Iris' Dragonite like a bug. Veteran with arguably the most battle experience of any of Ash's Pokemon. Would be even more powerful now several seasons removed from Best Wishes. Ash's second-most iconic Pokemon. Beloved Pokemon of the franchise/anime. Mega Evolution or not, Charizard would be there right at the top my friend.

I don't think he truly trains his pokemon as hard as the others I mentioned above,especially Paul and Alain.Sceptile and maybe Infernape (if you don't count it previously being with Paul) are the strongest pokemon he's trained so far as a trainer.His Charizard,Gliscor,Squirtle got strong through another source,his Snorlax was already powerful before being captured,his Greninja has "battle bond/bond phenomenon" but that is something that had nothing to do with Ash's training,in it's base form it's weaker than Charizard,Sceptile,Infernape,Snorlax and arguably Pikachu.

He trains on and off-screen plenty. Paul's method is brutal and effective, but he also burns out his Pokemon and they never can rely on trainer/Pokemon bond/love for second wind because Paul doesn't believe in that philosophy.

He only beat Paul due to plot armor and even then it wasn't a real defeat,Paul should have won once Infernape fell to the ground for several seconds after getting hit by Electivire's Thunder but Electivire decided to let the match continue by stopping the referee from declaring it unable to battle.Plus Ash told Paul before that he wouldn't use Blaze yet he had to use it at the league.

Infernape would have motioned right as the ref would have finished the words, so the battle wouldn't have been over yet.

Even then, it's not like Ash used his best Pokemon against Paul. Even if Paul had Torterra/Ursaring/Magmortar/Electivire/Drapion/Honchkrow, Ash would have had counters for almost all of them after Lake Acuity and if he used his big dog lineup of Charizard/Pikachu/Sceptile/Infernape/Heracross/Snorlax, he'd have won that too.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Conquered Charicific Valley. Held its own against an OP dream Entei. Triple KOs against Gary including Gary's Blastoise. Nearly defeated Harrison's Blaziken, and Harison would have won the tournament if Charizard didn't injure Blaziken that badly. Defeated an Articuno commanded by an elite Frontier Brain. Would have crushed Iris' Dragonite like a bug. Veteran with arguably the most battle experience of any of Ash's Pokemon. Would be even more powerful now several seasons removed from Best Wishes. Ash's second-most iconic Pokemon. Beloved Pokemon of the franchise/anime. Mega Evolution or not, Charizard is at the top my friend.

I been saying all of this for a few years now,I'm as much of a Charizard fan as the next guy/girl but he isn't on the level of Ash-Greninja,we never even got to see it face Reshiram back in BW.

He trains on and off-screen plenty. Paul's method is brutal and effective, but he also burns out his Pokemon and they never can rely on trainer/Pokemon bond/love for second wind because Paul doesn't believe in that philosophy.

Ash trains on and off screen but not to the extent of Paul did/does.There's no evidence of Paul training "burning" out his pokemon unless you're talking about Chimchar in early DP that was the only exception,the rest of his pokemon don't have this problem,the Lake Acuity battle is a perfect example of this,he managed to train them up in just 10 days prior to their first full battle and destroyed Ash 6-2.

Infernape would have motioned right as the ref would have finished the words, so the battle wouldn't have been over yet.

No it wouldn't have,the referee would have declared it unable to battle,Infernape didn't get up until Electivire and Paul taunted it.

Even then, it's not like Ash used his best Pokemon against Paul. Even if Paul had Torterra/Ursaring/Magmortar/Electivire/Drapion/Honchkrow, Ash would have had counters for half of them after Lake Acuity

He wouldn't have had counters for them he'd get destroyed point blank period.

and if he used his big dog lineup of Charizard/Pikachu/Sceptile/Infernape/Heracross/Snorlax, he'd have won that too.

Probably but who is to say Paul doesn't have more powerhouses that he never showed on screen,he did have Nidoking and Hariyama and also mentioned Chimchr could be the strongest of all my fire types so that could mean that he has more at his disposal that we never seen.

 

[Dream Lad]

I been saying all of this for a few years now,I'm as much of a Charizard fan as the next guy/girl but he isn't on the level of Ash-Greninja,we never even got to see it face Reshiram back in BW.

That's totally okay if you believe that, but I don't see what reason there is to not think that current Charizard wouldn't be that powerful. Ash-Greninja's best performance was defeating Sawyer's Mega Sceptile. Charizard defeating Articuno was a greater feat, and that happened during Battle Frontier. He has only gotten better since then.

Ash trains on and off screen but not to the extent of Paul did/does.There's no evidence of Paul training "burning" out his pokemon unless you're talking about Chimchar in early DP that was the only exception,the rest of his pokemon don't have this problem,the Lake Acuity battle is a perfect example of this,he managed to train them up in just 10 days prior to their first full battle and destroyed Ash 6-2.

Of course Paul's brutal training regimen burns out his Pokemon. The difference is that his Pokemon don't mind it/enjoy it.

No it wouldn't have,the referee would have declared it unable to battle,Infernape didn't get up until Electivire and Paul taunted it.

I felt there was enough seconds for Infernape to make a sound or movement that would have stopped the referee. In any case, once Blaze activated, Infernape won.

He wouldn't have had counters for them he'd get destroyed point blank period.

Evidently Paul didn't think so, considering he only brought back one Pokemon from the Lake Acuity group.

Obviously if we go META, then yes, maybe the writers felt there was no realistic way Ash's DP team could defeat Torterra/Drapion/Ursaring/Honchkrow/Magmotar/Electivire, but that's countered by the fact that Ash didn't use his top lineup either.

Probably but who is to say Paul doesn't have more powerhouses that he never showed on screen,he did have Nidoking and Hariyama and also mentioned Chimchr could be the strongest of all my fire types so that could mean that he has more at his disposal that we never seen.

Why wouldn't Paul use his strong Pokemon in a league semifinal? Unlike Ash, who was driven by sentiment to use the Lake Acuity team again, Paul doesn't have that belief.

 

[mehmeh1]

Just gonna post this here: https://forums.serebii.net/threads/ash-greninja-battle-viability-assessment-compilation.662620/

As for a tier list this is the 1 I’ve come up with after years of thinking over it:

Z+: (Ash-)Greninja
Z-: Peakachu
S+: Charizard
S: (Blaze) Infernape
S-: Sceptile
A+: Snorlax
A: Krookodile, Bulbasaur, Heracross
A-: Gible, Torkoal
B+: Swellow, Gliscor, Squirtle, Hawlucha
B: Glalie, Kingler
B-: Talonflame, Goodra, Pignite, Torterra
C+: Buizel, Corphish, Quilava, Leavanny
C: Bayleef, Staraptor, Noivern, Tauros, Snivy
C-: Noctowl, Donphan, Palpitoad
D+: Scraggy
D: Oshawatt, Totodile
D-: Boldore, Unfezzant
Limbo: Butterfree, Pidgeot, Primeape, Muk, Lapras

Note that each pokémon is where they’re at as of their last battle. Admittedly I’d be way better at arguing for each of my placements at about this time last year than I am now though I’m still fairly confident in this list with an error bound of at most 1 sub-letter grade.

Btw, where would you put torracat? He's the only one (poipole aside) of ash's SM team to have no feats after the point you stopped watching (unless you count less than a minute long sparring sessions and an interrupted battle with kiawe)? He's gotten a few boosts since, but hasn't really been able to use them as of now anyways, so at least as of sm90, where would you put him?

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

That's totally okay if you believe that, but I don't see what reason there is to not think that current Charizard wouldn't be that powerful. Ash-Greninja's best performance was defeating Sawyer's Mega Sceptile. Charizard defeating Articuno was a greater feat, and that happened during Battle Frontier. He has only gotten better since then.

He didn't truly defeat that Articuno he more so outlasted it,Charizard went down first Noland stopped the referee from declaring it unable to battle,Articuno fell down and Charizard got back up.If you think it's a greater feat fine whatever idc.

Of course Paul's brutal training regimen burns out his Pokemon. The difference is that his Pokemon don't mind it/enjoy it.

Paul's rigorous training gave his pokemon impressive quick results in a faster time than Ash with his own pokemon.

I felt there was enough seconds for Infernape to make a sound or movement that would have stopped the referee.

Well it didn't and I wouldn't have seen it going that route anyway.

Evidently Paul didn't think so, considering he only brought back one Pokemon from the Lake Acuity group.

He obviously was using a new team to see what other pokemon Ash was using.Gastrodon and Aggron were sacrificial lambs.Drapion/Electivire were the only real threats and were there to sweep Ash's team.

Obviously if we go META, then yes, maybe the writers felt there was no realistic way Ash's DP team could defeat Torterra/Drapion/Ursaring/Honchkrow/Magmotar/Electivire

There is no realistic way because they're much stronger,Ash never beat Torterra,Honchkrow and Magmortar.He was only able to beat Ursaring,Electivire and Drapion after they swept half of Ash's team or Chimchar/Infernape activated Blaze.

Even if Ash were to come up with a counter it still wouldn't have worked (does counter shield ring a bell?)Ash was only able to beat Paul's sinnoh league team due to plot armor and the team being significantly weaker despite that Ash still barley won.

Why wouldn't Paul use his strong Pokemon in a league semifinal? Unlike Ash, who was driven by sentiment to use the Lake Acuity team again, Paul doesn't have that belief.

Plot Armor

 

[Genaller]

I think simpler alternatives are:

1. Ash-Greninja's power may be not as high as you're making it out to be.

It most certainly is. Section I para 7 of the linked essay for starters.

2. The anime contradicts itself all the time, and is inconsistent with the exact power levels of Pokemon. That's why applying logic equations (A > > B = C < D, ergo A > D) doesn't always work out, otherwise you're pigeon-holed into creating elaborate headcanons/theories, like for example, using the line "playing for keeps" to render Hawlucha vs Abomasnow inadmissible because it otherwise negate your logic algorithm of Ash-Greninja's power.

It is at times and especially with Pikachu but 1 can deduce aggregate expectations for hypothetical battles with a fair degree of accuracy. Type and battle style matchups do factor into who wins but usually when the pokémon are fairly close to each other in overall stats. When 1 Pokémon is outright better than another by a significant enough margin, it’ll end up winning regardless of how much of a disadvantage it should be at. I do make conjectures, but they’re always based on information the show presents us and the same applies for my claim that a pokémon can alter how much it braces for impact. Firstly we know that pokémon take more damage when caught off guard than they do when on guard. Caught off guard can be taken as having negligible bracing. In addition we know that gym leaders need to be able to battle at a range (varies from GL to GL) in order to accommodate the wide variety of challengers they face and also stay within gym pokémon standards. From there it shouldn’t stretch believability that some gym leaders can alter their pokémon’s tanking capacity at will (and in this case there’s even further support for it being the case when factoring in both Clemont and Wulfric’s statements).

Charizard is Ash's most experienced battler (experience matters in any fight), who is constantly training to become stronger.

Still hasn’t done anything to justify being in the champion base ace and/or e4 mega ace spectrums.

Charizard held his own against an overpowered dream Entei back in Johto. By Battle Frontier, he defeated a legendary, unlike a certain Mega Charizard X that struggled against legendaries but did decisively defeat Ash-Greninja twice. Articuno wasn't battling randomly either, but being commanded by an elite Frontier Brain. Defeating a legendary > quality losses to a Mega Charizard X that struggled against legendaries. I'm aware you're going to say that Articuno isn't as powerful of a legendary as the ones that Mega Charizard X faced, but since Mega Charizard X was not at all on the level of those legendaries, it probably would have have fared better or beaten a legendary of Articuno's caliber instead, which is exactly what Charizard did all the way back in Battle Frontier.

E4 Base Aces >= Brandon’s Regirock > Brandon’s Regice >= Brandon’s Dusclops ~ End of BF Zard >= Beginning of BF Zard ~ Articuno commanded by Noland. If anyone barring Dream Lad or PBF would like to understand the basis behind this scaling, then please let me know.

Mega Charizard X on the other hand is the strongest trainer pokémon in existence barring (debatably) champion mega aces, so yeah it utterly eviscerates a pokémon like BF Articuno commanded by an FB or not. That’s all I have to say for this.

In your words, Iris' Dragonite is quite powerful, and yet Charizard would have annihilated it with minimal effort and barely any damage if not for N's intervention. I think even by this point during Best Wishes, Charizard would be a tough opponent for Ash-Greninja.

Strawman. I actually said Charizard was putting in serious effort, but sure probably not much damage. If it had actually KOed Dragonite, I would’ve put it in Z- (top end of the E4 Base Ace spectrum) along with vs Alain Peakachu at which point it should give A-G an upper mid - lower high diff fight, but it didn’t so I chose to be more conservative and stick with S+. Also it returned to Pallet post BW, so there’s no guarantee that it’s still getting consistently stronger like it was when rigorously training in CV. For your question yeah I can accept an interpretation where Zard has a competitive match with A-G, but A-G still wins decisively as reasonable.

So with even more training and experience, current Charizard would obviously be even more powerful. There's no way Ash's iconic Charizard, and the franchise's pet species, would ever get beaten "mid diff" by Ash-Greninja in a hypothetical battle (honestly more likely it's vice-versa). It would be an epic battle, not a laughable stomp.

See above. Also I have no interest in meta arguments of such kind so give them a rest already. By invoking meta reasoning like that you’re now technically speaking in a separate formal language system than I am. I can just as easily argue that if the writers were to write that fight, they’d just give Zara ME or a Z-move to make the fight far closer than it would have been otherwise (with it arguably even being in favor of Mega/Z-move Zard winning in this scenario).

Btw, where would you put torracat? He's the only one (poipole aside) of ash's SM team to have no feats after the point you stopped watching (unless you count less than a minute long sparring sessions and an interrupted battle with kiawe)? He's gotten a few boosts since, but hasn't really been able to use them as of now anyways, so at least as of sm90, where would you put him?

I’ll rate the SM Pokémon after the league is finished.

 

[Dream Lad]

It most certainly is. Section I para 7 of the linked essay for starters. It is at times and especially with Pikachu but 1 can deduce aggregate expectations for hypothetical battles with a fair degree of accuracy. Type and battle style matchups do factor into who wins but usually when the pokémon are fairly close to each other in overall stats. When 1 Pokémon is outright better than another by a significant enough margin, it’ll end up winning regardless of how much of a disadvantage it should be at. I do make conjectures, but they’re always based on information the show presents us and the same applies for my claim that a pokémon can alter how much it braces for impact. Firstly we know that pokémon take more damage when caught off guard than they do when on guard. Caught off guard can be taken as having negligible bracing. In addition we know that gym leaders need to be able to battle at a range (varies from GL to GL) in order to accommodate the wide variety of challengers they face and also stay within gym pokémon standards. From there it shouldn’t stretch believability that some gym leaders can alter their pokémon’s tanking capacity at will (and in this case there’s even further support for it being the case when factoring in both Clemont and Wulfric’s statements).

Why would Wulfric be battling at a lower level in the first battle? Especially after he got annoyed by Ash's attitude. If Hawlucha vs Abomasnow happened during the rematch, then you might have had a case because Wulfric would be taking it easy after crushing Ash in the first battle and that was further confirmed when he didn't abuse the Ice Body strategy. But that's not the case. It's a contradiction buddy. The anime is infamous for this inconsistency, hence why you ought to be careful trying to determine everything with logic equations, because then you have to fish for statements like "playing for keeps" in order to hope that everything can stay intact.

Still hasn’t done anything to justify being in the champion base ace and/or e4 mega ace spectrums. E4 Base Aces >= Brandon’s Regirock > Brandon’s Regice >= Brandon’s Dusclops ~ End of BF Zard >= Beginning of BF Zard ~ Articuno commanded by Noland. If anyone barring Dream Lad or PBF would like to understand the basis behind this scaling, then please let me know. Mega Charizard X on the other hand is the strongest trainer pokémon in existence barring (debatably) champion mega aces, so yeah it utterly eviscerates a pokémon like BF Articuno commanded by an FB or not. That’s all I have to say for this.

Then all I'll have to say is:

Charizard defeated a legendary commanded by a Frontier Brain way back during Battle Frontier. Mega Charizard X struggled against higher legendaries (not on par whatsoever), but is better suited to defeat a lower legendary like Articuno, why is precisely what Ash's Charizard defeated. This Mega Charizard X defeated Ash-Greninja twice decisively. So I fail to see how Greninja is going to win "mid diff" against a Charizard that has only become even more powerful.

Strawman. I actually said Charizard was putting in serious effort, but sure probably not much damage. If it had actually KOed Dragonite, I would’ve put it in Z- (top end of the E4 Base Ace spectrum) along with vs Alain Peakachu at which point it should give A-G an upper mid - lower high diff fight, but it didn’t so I chose to be more conservative and stick with S+. Also it returned to Pallet post BW, so there’s no guarantee that it’s still getting consistently stronger like it was when rigorously training in CV. For your question yeah I can accept an interpretation where Zard has a competitive match with A-G, but A-G still wins decisively as reasonable.

Charizard would have KO'd Dragonite next move if N didn't intervene. Why do you think he intervened? Dragonite is holding its left arm. The battle was over.

See above. Also I have no interest in meta arguments of such kind so give them a rest already. By invoking meta reasoning like that you’re now technically speaking in a separate formal language system than I am. I can just as easily argue that if the writers were to write that fight, they’d just give Zara ME or a Z-move to make the fight far closer than it would have been otherwise (with it arguably even being in favor of Mega/Z-move Zard winning in this scenario).

The anime operates on meta, unfortunately. Some things can't be defended by meta (like Oshawott being any form of challenge to Greninja), but a clash between Charizard and Greninja, no matter if your argument or mine is closer to the truth, would 100% be epic.