Rape and Personal Responsibility

[Sid87]

PREFACE: I hope this topic is not to racey or taboo for the forum (there are discussion on drug use, so I felt it would be okay, but I suppose I am not 100% certain). If it is, I apologize and welcome a moderator to close/delete the topic as needed.



Okay, with that out of the way, I'm going to discuss something that has been on my mind.

My sister-in-law recently Shared an image on Facebook. Here it is:

This reminded me of an advertisement I remembered from a little over a year ago. Here THAT is:

The ad in the latter image caused a great deal of controversy and ended up being removed from everywhere it was posted because it was deemed "offensive". The former image is a completely acceptable sign held by a girl at an event called a "Slutwalk".

Before I get into dangerous territory, I am going to open with some transparency:

I feel that, in both of those images, the unseen rapist is abhorrent. Rape is a crime, period. If someone commits rape, they should be tried, convicted, and imprisoned. If a girl is too drunk to consent or, worse yet, has drunk herself unconscious, that is NOT consent. And frankly, anyone who disagrees strikes me as a frighteningly sociopathic individual. Rape is rape, and rape is a crime. There is no excusing a rapist for committing such a terrible, tragic crime on anyone. If someone CAN'T say no that does not, nor should it ever, be implied as a yes.

THAT SAID...

The current culture seems to be moving towards a sense of no personal responsibility. The first image I posted is a girl who states she had more to drink than she could handle, flirted with someone, and had a crime perpetrated against her. She does his amidst throngs of other young women who support her bravery. The second image was removed after a public outcry bemoaned it as offensive and "blaming the victim". There is a removal here of personal responsibility. Do young women who go to parties and drink or do drugs deserve to be raped? Of course not; no one in their right mind would argue that they do. But if you willingly put yourself in a dangerous situation, and you do so while intentionally imbibing substances that impair both your ability to make decisions and resist harm, you have to accept some responsibility for your actions.

I feel like I can't stress this enough: I am not saying that the rapist should be absolved of his actions. I'm not saying that he is not still a criminal who should be tried for a felony crime. I'm not saying the girl "deserved it" or "asked for it". I guess what I'm saying is: if every day you leave your house, you leave your windows and doors wide open and then come home and find someone robbed you, I don't pity you. And I don't think their should be marches arguing for your right to do the stupid thing that led to the crime committed against you. And I certainly don't think that if society tells you "Well here's what you could have done to prevent that from happening", that society is being offensive or insensitive.

My wife and I had this discussion--and I feel the need to preface this with the statement that my wife is very much a feminist; she voted in the elections in 2012 for the first time in almost a decade because she bought into the Republican War On Women narrative, and she was very vocal about women's rights issues--and she told me about a class she had back in college. Her professor told a parable about a princess whose father never let her go outside. He refused to even let her look outside. He kept her locked up in his castle and warned her that if she went outside, the marauders would rape and kill her. After the king passed away, the princess finally had a chance to do what she wanted, so she left the castle. And was promptly raped and murdered by marauders. In this situation, who is at fault? My wife told me she was the ONLY one in her class who said the princess was at least partially to blame. She was told about the dangers over and over and knew what could happen to her, but she chose to ignore those warnings and do what she wanted, instead.

Now, I'm not supporting a police state: I don't want the government to tell us what we can or can't do "for our own safety". Not at all. But a simple public service announcement that says "Don't put yourself in a position where bad things can happen to you because bad things might happen to you"... I don't see that as offensive or insulting whatsoever. And if you know what perils could await you if you put yourself in a situation where things could get out of control and then perils happen to you, I don't pity you. And this whole movement where not only do you get pity, but become a hero of sorts? That's bewildering to me. "Yeah, girl! I SHOULD be able to walk into a frat house with a bunch of guys I don't know and lose all control over myself without any repercussions! Go you!" Well, yes... you SHOULD be able to, but that's not the world we live in. I reference back to my example about leaving your doors wide open at home all day. It'd be great if I could do that, but I can't, and I'm not stupid enough to ignore what I know could happen just so I could do it.

If you go out into a crowded, loud situation where you don't know or trust everyone there, and then you drink or smoke yourself stupid or whatever, and someone assaults you... I don't know, I just think you could have avoided that by taking a little bit of responsibility for your own actions and took steps to protect yourself. You're a victim, yes, but you're not a martyr or a hero. You're someone who chose to ignore common sense safety precautions for the sake of having a good time. And there has to be some level of personal responsibility for your own actions and decisions.

 

[Snorunt conservationist]

Girl in first pic is a moron just for writing a whole paragraph in block caps. Poor use of English too.

Meanwhile, congratulations to your wife on throwing away her vote on a mythical cause.

On topic, your premise is flawed on the basis that drinking can somehow be seen as a "willing attempt" to put oneself in a dangerous situation.

I see where you're coming from with regards to the notion of taking responsibility for the state you get yourself in but to apply this to rape is wrong. You just can't compare it to getting jacked/tripping over and smashing your nose because of your drinking. It takes personal violation to a level beyond which personal accountability can be...........accounted for.

 

[Celestial Moth]

Obviously rape is a crime and obviously it has great effects on the victim.

Within that first picture she herself basically said that she endorsed that outcome by wearing "to short shorts", drank to much and flirted.
I'm not saying that the crime was her fault, though you cant simply dismiss the pure fact that their are women and even girls who were inappropriate
clothing in which triggers the primal instinct in many mens brains, some can control it greater than others to prevent acting out impulsively though some cannot.

It'll always be the mans fault for committing the crime of rape, but people cant simply ignore the fact that younger and younger women and girls are wearing provocative
clothing specifically designed to capture a mans attention. And as previously state, when that connection is made, it triggers a primal instinct within men which some can not control.

 

[Lolsgod]

Obviously rape is a crime and obviously it has great effects on the victim.

Within that first picture she herself basically said that she endorsed that outcome by wearing "to short shorts", drank to much and flirted.
I'm not saying that the crime was her fault, though you cant simply dismiss the pure fact that their are women and even girls who were inappropriate
clothing in which triggers the primal instinct in many mens brains, some can control it greater than others to prevent acting out impulsively though some cannot.

It'll always be the mans fault for committing the crime of rape, but people cant simply ignore the fact that younger and younger women and girls are wearing provocative
clothing specifically designed to capture a mans attention. And as previously state, when that connection is made, it triggers a primal instinct within men which some can not control.

But then thats condoning rape.... You can't excuse someone who follows through on those urges. It'd be like if someone got angry and killed someone, you can't just say "Oh well the man asked for it by being rude, and therefore primal urges took over and made him commit this murder" Thats not far to victims and makes practically any crime excusable

 

[Celestial Moth]

But then thats condoning rape.... You can't excuse someone who follows through on those urges. It'd be like if someone got angry and killed someone, you can't just say "Oh well the man asked for it by being rude, and therefore primal urges took over and made him commit this murder" Thats not far to victims and makes practically any crime excusable

Yeah i see what mean bro and i don't condone rape for the record...
In your example though the person should have known better because only idiots go around provoking people, some people have mental disorders that genetically predispose them to act out in a specific way or manner so in the case that a person was being rude and then being killed, i could argue in a court that it was the very provoking which triggered the outcome and I'd probably win the case on mental grounds.

Though that's not at all this topic. People should no better because as i said women encourage that specific type of attention and predispose their self to the very type of behavior, because of their specific outfit that is ONLY DESIGNED TO GET MENS ATTENTION.

I'm not condoning rape nor am i encouraging it, it's just stupid to think that the type environment that women create because of their clothing and attitude isn't even in the slightest part to blame... Women should no better...

 

[kochoupink]

Girl in first pic is a moron just for writing a whole paragraph in block caps. Poor use of English too.

Meanwhile, congratulations to your wife on throwing away her vote on a mythical cause.

On topic, your premise is flawed on the basis that drinking can somehow be seen as a "willing attempt" to put oneself in a dangerous situation.

I see where you're coming from with regards to the notion of taking responsibility for the state you get yourself in but to apply this to rape is wrong. You just can't compare it to getting jacked/tripping over and smashing your nose because of your drinking. It takes personal violation to a level beyond which personal accountability can be...........accounted for.

Thank you. Thank you so much. This is so reasonable.

 

[はるひ]

Uggh, this is a topic I go heads and tails on.

I personally do not get the point of the ****,walk. I mean, if you want to dress provocative, it's fine. However, I... don't know, it's hard to put it into words but... people are going to get a message that you are easy. That's why when I was younger, my parents would never let me wear what most girls wear on TV or whatnot. They'd always tell me that I'm going to send the wrong message and get hurt. I was younger then so I didn't fully understand but as I got older, I started to understand where they were coming from. This is one of those cases that has been drilled to me.

Am I trying to condone rape? Hell no and it's crazy to think that someone would think that I support it. I do think that I am not alone when I say that when people do certain things.... it's... asking for it.

 

[Evilyn]

i hate the debate forum but this thread is pretty disgusting so far.

Though that's not at all this topic. People should no better because as i said women encourage that specific type of attention and predispose their self to the very type of behavior, because of their specific outfit that is ONLY DESIGNED TO GET MENS ATTENTION.

that's pretty self centered to believe that revealing clothing is only made to get male attention. has it ever occured to you that women may dress a certain way because they want to? not everything a woman does is done in thought of what their male counterparts think of it. have you never dressed up and noticed how good you look? what about how a woman dresses makes it only for male attention?

I'm not condoning rape nor am i encouraging it, it's just stupid to think that the type environment that women create because of their clothing and attitude isn't even in the slightest part to blame... Women should no better...

and yet rape is still extremely (if not more) prevalent across cultures that regress female sexuality, like many middle eastern cultures, where women are expected to dress in burqas. where's your excuse there?

rape happens because of rapists. the majority of rape happens with someone that the victim knew beforehand, including special others, acquaintances, etc. stop victim blaming and making excuses for the people causing the crime. it's ****ing disgusting.

your posts so far are sexist both because they put almost all blame on woman for creating the culture which causes rape (which is incorrect) and because you assume men are piggish creatures which cannot control their urges and women should have to be accustomed to that, as if we shouldn't hold men to higher standards. how old are you? these are extremely ignorant and childish views.

 

[Deku_Link]

Hey victim-blaming MRAs: Did you know that if a man gets raped in prison it's his own fault for going to jail in the first place?

 

[Celestial Moth]

i hate the debate forum but this thread is pretty disgusting so far.

that's pretty self centered to believe that revealing clothing is only made to get male attention. has it ever occured to you that women may dress a certain way because they want to? not everything a woman does is done in thought of what their male counterparts think of it. have you never dressed up and noticed how good you look? what about how a woman dresses makes it only for male attention?

OK i can understand that and i apologize cause their probably are people who dress as described, for the reasons you described.
Though their are also people who dress to look nice because they want to look good in other peoples eyes... This is virtually the same premiss..

and yet rape is still extremely (if not more) prevalent across cultures that regress female sexuality, like many middle eastern cultures, where women are expected to dress in burqas. where's your excuse there?

Yeah and they'll always be until people are fulling in control of their selfs. Its kinda safe to say and perhaps i'm getting arrogant to say "logical", but perhaps its logical to assume that if their were some sort of recorded statistic that measured the accounts of rape in those middle eastern cultures compared to the "west", their'd be a lot more pain and suffering in the west caused by rape...to say the least...

 

[bobjr]

God forbid it's hot out and a woman doesn't want to wear something that will just make her sweat excessively. Seriously, all this talk about personal responsibility, but how much of it goes toward the "Being a normal fucking human being and don't do such a horrible thing as rape"?

 

[Deku_Link]

God forbid it's hot out and a woman doesn't want to wear something that will just make her sweat excessively. Seriously, all this talk about personal responsibility, but how much of it goes toward the "Being a normal fucking human being and don't do such a horrible thing as rape"?

So... in other words, you're implying people should take personal responsibility by not raping other people?

That's LITERALLY MISANDRY.

 

[ellie]

i dunno who approved this but it never should have been approved in the first place, the multiple reports we've gotten in the short time since it's been open prove that. sppf obviously can't handle rape threads without writing a bunch of awful triggering posts. rape is never the victim's fault. period, end of story. and maybe if some of you had been sexually assaulted or knew someone who was you'd think different before spewing your victim blaming ******** here.