"Real" homosexuals?

[Morton Belgram]

So, there are the homosexuals who claim to have been born as they are, and there are the homosexuals who claim that they turned gay, and there are the homosexuals who have been converted into heterosexuals.

Now, I often hear that "gays by choice" and "ex-homosexuals" are NOT "real homosexuals". We accept it with confidence when someone says "I am born gay", but when a person says "I was not born gay" or "I used to be gay", then we brush it aside, as if it was some threat to a comfortable illusion that we do not want to face. Which I'm not saying that it is, but when we consider that there is no conclusive evidence that homosexuality is either something you're born with or turn into, then it certainly seems that there is some "selectiveness of truth" going on.

Now, I won't brush away the claims of those who say they are born homosexuals. Maybe they are. It would be respectless of me to claim that they are not if they truly think that they are and I can't read their mind, I don't know their condition. Yet, people are absolutely respectless regarding those who claim that they are not born gay. They brush their confessions aside as rubbish, without any good reason. Likewise, people look down on conversion therapy, but the fact of the matter is, these therapies wouldn't still be going on if it didn't make a difference for someone. There are plenty of previous homosexuals who are now married, to the opposite genders, and lives happy lives as "standard" families. If they have found true joy in the conversion, then why can't we be happy on their behalf?

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

Likewise, people look down on conversion therapy, but the fact of the matter is, these therapies wouldn't still be going on if it didn't make a difference for someone. There are plenty of previous homosexuals who are now married, to the opposite genders, and lives happy lives as "standard" families. If they have found true joy in the conversion, then why can't we be happy on their behalf?

Scientific evidence suggests otherwise. The hypothesis that conversion therapies wouldn't still be going on if they didn't make a difference is not something you can so lightly assume. There is very little credible scientific evidence suggesting that conversion therapy has any effect on sexual orientation. Most research that says it has an effect lacks empirical data, a control group, lumps together people with various different sexual orientations at the start of the therapy, and/or only uses client self-reporting as evidence to support the claim of success (which is inherently flawed as the groups under consideration are generally small and under social pressure from those same therapists to actually claim they changed). And even considering all of that most psychological conversion therapies report very low success rates and some also acknowledge that even those clients that have opposite-sex marriages after therapy (and are therefore usually counted as successfully treated) often still have homoerotic fantasies and tendencies. Questions must be asked whether it is the actual sexual orientation that was changed or just the (publicly displayed) behaviour.

And that is psychological conversion therapy. Conversion therapy offered by religious organisations are generally considered much worse when assessed by the scientific community. There is very little scientific rigour applied here by 'therapists' and actual scientific publications from therapists in this group are practically non-existent. In a lot of cases 'therapists' in this group primarily aim to try to move subjects to celibacy, realising that conversion to heterosexuality is not feasible. There are several reports that clients in the larger programs of conversion therapy in religious circles were sexually abused by 'therapists' as well. There are also reports of conversion therapy programs being stopped by religious organisations because they were completely ineffective, or worse, exacerbated feelings of self-hatred or self-loathing due to clients' failure to change, increasing suicidal tendencies.

The hypothesis that conversion therapy wouldn't exist if it didn't work is false. There is demand for it out of desperation, due to social stigmas on homosexuality, due to people being excluded from their families for being gay, abused, or seen as immoral or sinful for religious reasons. There are plenty of people that don't know the extent of the literature and assume it works because it is offered, or because the local pastor or priest recommends it. It is offered because there are people that fall for it and willing to pay for it, even though in practice it rarely if ever actually works.

 

[Scammel]

What a surprise, Morton's advocating for literal torture of gay people.

Conversion therapy exists because rancid cretins like you advocate for it, you moron.

 

[Zora]

I have a bad feeling about this thread; I want to cut through the bullshit sooner rather than later.

Let me clear about something: one does not simply un-queer themselves. Yes, I'm well aware there are people who claim to be ex-queer exist. Precisely because their identity is being ex-queer, they do not speak of us who are queer and live our lives queerly. They do not gain respect from me, especially if they bring harm to the queer community. Additionally, society's obsession with accentuating ex-queers is always to invalidate people who are queer, by insisting that if this person can get over queerness than the rest of us can get over it too. There's no reason besides bigotry to tell someone to stop being queer. Period. So don't.

And yes, I'm not answering your specific questions such as whether or not gay people are 'born' this way. I don't even know what the pragmatic difference is between 'born that away' or 'isn't a choice;' but I know from being gay it isn't a choice. However, even suggesting that someone can 'un-queer' themselves can do done real harm to queer people, and I don't believe it's possible to have this conversation in all but the bluntest terms without inviting queerphobia. And I want to make sure--to the best I can--that people who are queer feel validated and welcomed here. For that reason what I said above is all that needs to be said on this topic as far as I'm concerned; anything else is drivel with a serious chance of harm.

 

[bobjr]

Morton you're the worst Koopa Kid because your dad would have taught you better than this.