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Regional Variants/Alolan Forms Discussion Thread

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clbgolden12

Alolan (and soon to be Galarian) trainer
That's exactly how I feel about Alolan Sandslash. Sandslash has already earned its spot on my ingame team, but in the competitive field, Ice/Rock is a very difficult typing to use. Offensively, these are two of the best STABs one can want. Ice and Rock have massive coverage on a lot of stuff , but the defensives hurt a lot. Being 4x weak to Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, and Vacuum Wave is also a real pain. I'll find a way to make it work online though.
Alolan Sandslash is Ice/Steel.

... But I guess that doesn't make things much better.
 

Sulfurian

Well-Known Member
I'm honestly excited for Alolan persian in competitive. The only thing is Technician wouldn't do much for it outside of what kanto persian already can do, provide strong fake outs or make useful coverage moves stronger like icy wind on the special set.

Fur coat is definitely great because it does seperate it from all the other current cat pokemon we have. I was worried it would get defiant and then boom Purugly copycat (pun intended)

With all the support moves and coverage normal persian can learn, ontop of whatever we get in sun and moon, competitive-wise it looks good for a bulky attacking A-persian or a bulky one with hopefully slack off or risk the sleep talk/rest.
 
Alolan Sandslash is Ice/Steel.

... But I guess that doesn't make things much better.

Lol yeah sorry. My mind was out of it after encountering a real life deer just outside my house.

Let's see...Ice/Steel...Still 4x weak to fighting, but also 4x to fire...yeesh. Earthquake still hurts as well.

But...no grass or water weaknesses, and rock and steel are neutral.

Ice/Steel is actually pretty decent defensively. Unless that has changed for this upcoming gen, we currently don't have any priority fire attacks. Vacuum Wave distribution is also really low (the only ones who actually have the stats and STAB to use it are Poliwrath, Blaziken, Infernape, and Lucario), so Mach Punch is the only real thing to fear. Earthquake is gonna be present no matter what, but Sandslash in theory should be able to survive one depending on who is using it.

As for Alolan Persian, I am definitely happy for Fur Coat. Fur Coat definitely will help it to stand apart from Kanto Persian, but Liepard as well.
 

Fairy Queen

Lover of the Fairy type
I am very curious which alola forms will prove to be superior to their kanto counterparts
 
I am very curious which alola forms will prove to be superior to their kanto counterparts

That's a very subjective question, especially when you take movepools, typings, and abilities into account. For example, the dex entries for the Alolan Sandshrew family mentions it being slower and not having the mobility that the Kanto variants are known for. That might mean a loss in moves such as Rapid Spin. And who knows what the base stats will be?

IMO, the only one that really feels like it might be superior is Raichu. Having the psychic typing might mean more power and speed, but then again this is just speculation.
 

Erron Black

The Outlaw
So far it seems like Exeggutor and Persian will be a big upgrade from the Kanto versions

Wouldn't be so sure on Exeggutor. It's got a 4x weakness that also has a very common priority move, whereas normal Exeggutor is mostly just too weak to U-Turns.

Persian is definitely an upgrade though, just because it's Dark type with Fur Coat/Technician. If it gets Pursuit and Knock Off it'll be pretty good.

Regular Sandslash is already way better. If A-Sandslash doesn't get a great Hidden Ability and movepool/stat relocation then it'll be way inferior, two 4x weaknesses from very common types is terrible.

Ninetales is a mystery. My guess is they'll be fairly even. A-Ninetales has a great offensive typing, but Bullet Punch exists. My guess is if A-Ninetales has a great hidden ability it'll be better than regular Ninetales.

Alolan Muk is already way better. One weakness, an immunity, and 4 resistances is amazing, plus it has the Dark type, which means it's likely to get some of the best moves like Pursuit, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, etc... Plus it even has Poison Touch. It'll easily be way way better than normal Muk.

Alolan Marowak is already really good with a Ghost/Fire offensive typing. Lightningrod makes for an amazing ability as it grants it a third immunity with a Sp.Atk boost upon being hit by electric moves. It's also ghost type, which means it has Will-o-wisp, so it also has a nice way to shut down physical attackers. My guess is if it forfeits defense and attack for Sp.Atk and Speed, it'll be way better than Marowak.

Alolan Raichu is easily better than Raichu. It has a nice ability to be paired with Tapu Koko in doubles, a decent typing, and due to it gaining a second STAB it can be more flexible than normal Raichu. Plus, regular Raichu is just trash. Only issue is that Electric doesn't negate any Psychic weaknesses and vice versa so it gets extra weaknesses while also getting extra resistances too.

Alolan Raticate may or may not be worse than regular Raticate honestly. It gets two immunities, but also gets a common 4x weakness with two additional weaknesses that are quite common. Hustle is a great ability, but if A-Raticate doesn't have the bulk or the speed it's going to suck.
 

glacialcat

Well-Known Member
They've mostly chosen Pokemon that are not already very strong. So they don't have a lot of room to become worse, but plenty of room to become better. So I'm optimistic most of them will end up being better, even if they might not end up being good.

I think Alolan Muk is the one I feel the best about. Poison/Dark is an extremely powerful typing. It doesn't even add any weaknesses, it just removes a few resistances, but also removes its psychic weakness. It loses Sticky Hold and Stench, but Stench was not very good for Muk considering its slow speed anyway.

Exeggutor: Grass/Dragon is certainly a better typing than Grass/Psychic, for a number of reasons. It loses Chlorophyll however, for the arguably worse Frisk. Still it seems like an improvement overall.

Persian: Better. Fur Coat alone is going to be a big improvement.

Marowak: My answer depends on if Thick Club works for it or not, but the typing is probably better and Lightningrod is actually useful for it.

Raticate: Hustle + Life Orb will hit a lot harder than Guts + Flame Orb, but it'll be less accurate. Two STABs is better than one, along with two immunities. I'd complain about the x4 Fighting weakness but Raticate already get KO'd by most unSTAB fighting moves in the first place, all this really does is make Mach Punch a problem.

Raichu: Prrrrobably better? But /Psychic is oftentimes a liability as much as it is a benefit. Still an additional STAB and a very nice ability help it out.

Sandslash: Hard to say, but Sandslash already does so poorly that I'm inclined to believe the Steel typing will probably more benefits than the Ice typing removes. At least I don't see it being worse than regular Sandslash.

Ninetales: Probably one of the few I can legitimately see being significantly worse. This is mostly because it will (certainly) lose access to Drought, which is the biggest reason to use Ninetales. Sure it might get Snow Warning, but hail teams are way worse than sun teams.

Can't make any comment on Dugtrio, obviously. If it keeps Arena Trap and adds another STAB, it'll probably be better. If not, we'll see.

All just speculation, of course.
 

Fairy Queen

Lover of the Fairy type
Exeggutor and Persian yes.

Alola Exeggutor is weak to Bug, Poison, ICE, Dragon, Fairy, and Flying. Kanto Exeggutor is weak to BUG, Dark, Flying, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Ice. So Alola form loses weaknesses to Dark and Fire (which are extremely common) as well as a 4x weakness to bug moves such as u-turn, but gains weaknesses to Dragon, Fairy, and a double weakness to Ice. It isn't much of an improvement, since he also loses some resistances (but gains several 4x resistances) but an improvement nonetheless. Though the loss of Harvest and/or Chlorophyll will also hurt it. Overall, the improvement is there, but not by much to be quite honest.

Alola Persian is weak to Fighting, Bug, and Fairy. Kanto Persian is weak to Fighting. So it gains two weaknesses, however, the Dark typing is a really good typing (especially since it now gets STAB Knock Off), and it has two of the best abilities in Fur Coat and Technician, with the former increasing its defensive bulk far beyond that of its Kanto counterpart. Overall, an improvement, in both offense and defense.

I also think Alola Muk will be an improvement. We don't know its stats, but Poison/Dark is superior to mono Poison. Poison/Dark grants it an immunity to psychic, a weakness of poison, making it only weak to ground type moves. This helps Alola Muk a lot on the defensive side, and dark is a very good offensive typing. So overall increase in defensive and offensive potential.

Alola Sandshrew is def not an improvement. Gaining two 4 times weaknesses is not good, and being slower on top of all that, not good at all. Good offensive potential, but overall the mono ground kanto form is probably better.

Alola Ninetails is not an improvement. Ice is a powerful offensive typing, but terrible defensively. Fire is also strong offensively, and bad, but not terrible, defensively. A slight dip from its Kanto counterpart.

Alola Raichu is probably not an improvement. Adding the psychic typing is good offensively, but defensively, it now gains weaknesses to Bug (U-turn), Ghost (Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak), and Dark (Knock Off, Sucker Punch) on top of a weakness to Ground. Those are bad weaknesses to have, as opposed to Kanto Raichu which is weak to only Ground.

Alola Raticate is a tough one. While it gains better offense with the Dark typing addition, it also gains weaknesses to Fairy, and a 4x weakness to Fighting. Alola Raticate better look out for Mach Punchs (not that it could survive them before). Its abilities didn't give it anything over its Kanto counterpart, so overall, it probably will be weaker, though STAB Sucker Punch will be useful and give it a niche.

Alola Marowak went from being weak to Grass, Ice, and Water to being weak to Dark, Ghost, Ground, Rock, and Water. While it has good offenses, and may form itself a niche, being weak to sucker punch/knock off, shadow sneak, earthquake, scald, and stealth rock is going to be killer for it, weakening it from its Kanto counterpart. And its abilities didn't make up for that.

My thoughts.
 
Here is the thing about these Alolan forms though. We don't know if the base stats will change or not, and if they do, by how much. That's why I didn't want to put too much speculation into it.

Alolan Persian definitely sounds better then the Kanto variant with Fur Coat. Being able to take hits that the Kanto variant can't? Yes please. However, what if the speed drops, and stuff that Kanto Persian had no problem outspeeding becomes an issue for Alolan Perisan?

Ninetales I can also see being worse on the Alolan side, unless Snow Warning becomes the HA to compensate, then its just two different sides of the same coin.

Alolan Muk however, I see being better because as everyone said, there is nothing to lose and everything to gain.

With Exeggutor, the main difference in the Kanto variant is the abilities. Chlorophyll turns Exeggutor into a sun sweeper. Harvest turns it into a troll. On paper the typing for the Alolan Exeggutor sounds nice, but I'll wait for base stats before making a final call.

But 17 days until this speculation becomes a reality!
 

XXD17

Draco rex
I'm honestly excited for Alolan persian in competitive. The only thing is Technician wouldn't do much for it outside of what kanto persian already can do, provide strong fake outs or make useful coverage moves stronger like icy wind on the special set.

Fur coat is definitely great because it does seperate it from all the other current cat pokemon we have. I was worried it would get defiant and then boom Purugly copycat (pun intended)

With all the support moves and coverage normal persian can learn, ontop of whatever we get in sun and moon, competitive-wise it looks good for a bulky attacking A-persian or a bulky one with hopefully slack off or risk the sleep talk/rest.

There is one notable edge that Alolan persian has over regular and that's being able to use very powerful pursuits. Persian loses normal STAB on fake out, but with STAB+technician boosted pursuit, it wrecks choiced psychic and ghost types (assuming that it keeps its speed). Either they switch out and take double damage or they stay in and take around the same amount of damage. It makes pursuit a very safe move to go for.
 

WyvernTamer

Active Member
Honestly I think Aloan Exeggutor is a downgrade. Not going to get to deep in it due to us lacking stats in all but since his ability is "Frisk" now instead of what he once had that made him either a sun sweeper or a annoying bulky attacker. He is going to have a lot of problems getting started. Frisk does him little justice seeing as he probably won't be around for long to constantly use it, and I'm pretty sure switcheroo, and trick won't be moves it will be able to learn. Which is one of the main advantages of "Frisk" so unless it's hidden ability is chlorophyll I don't see it doing much. There is always trick room cause I'm sure it's still slow as molasses.
Aloan Persian as many said before is already showing improvement due to it having one of the better abilities that the game has to offer. Hopefully it stays fast and gets a little bit of extra attack power.
Aloan Ninetails i actually see as in improvement its typing is Ice/Fairy which is great offensively. Yeah it comes with a few more weakness but aslong as it's fast enough and strong enough I don't see much of a problem besides steel types and bullet punch. And if it does get threaten by any of those things will do what every great Pokemon trainer does.... Switch lol.
Aloan Marowak is already shaping up pretty nicely 3 immunity's (assuming it's running lighting rod)2 of which are common types. I don't see it having many issues besides it's speed stat.
Aloan Raticate will probably be better then his cousin just due to typing alone. Two stabs are better then one and it's dark no less. I wouldn't worry much about 4xweakness to fighting cause when did Raticate have enough bulk to survive most hits anyway?
Aloan Raichu is without a doubt better then his distant relative. Not only will he be far stronger but he gains another stab and double speed in Electric terrain. Which means when training one you can focus more on sp.attack and not worry much about it being out sped by other mons. Also Electric terrain boost Electric moves by 50% and if he has life orb another 20% .... Just saying better watch out for this guy.
Also straying off topic a bit here, but I am really happy to see Terrain moves getting more love this gen. Hopefully players will incorporate them in their strategies more often.
Anywho those are my thoughts and opinions. 16 more days guys !!
 

Inconspicuosaurus

Bone-ified dinosaur
That's a very subjective question, especially when you take movepools, typings, and abilities into account. For example, the dex entries for the Alolan Sandshrew family mentions it being slower and not having the mobility that the Kanto variants are known for. That might mean a loss in moves such as Rapid Spin. And who knows what the base stats will be?

IMO, the only one that really feels like it might be superior is Raichu. Having the psychic typing might mean more power and speed, but then again this is just speculation.
Saying a Pokemon is "stronger" than another is subjective at the best of times, because something can have an unequivocally worse BST, or a normally useless ability, but be the perfect fit for the team you're building. Case in point: Se Jun Park's Pachirisu.

Wouldn't be so sure on Exeggutor. It's got a 4x weakness that also has a very common priority move, whereas normal Exeggutor is mostly just too weak to U-Turns.

Agreed here. People seem to forget how good regular Exeggutor is when they say its Alola form is better lol. But Dragons tend to have very high BST, so we'll have to wait and see if that makes a big difference.

Persian is definitely an upgrade though, just because it's Dark type with Fur Coat/Technician. If it gets Pursuit and Knock Off it'll be pretty good.

I don't think you can say "definitely" about any of these, but Persian comes close. STAB Fake Out is all it really loses, as STAB Technician Bite is real nasty, not to mention the usefulness of STAB Knock Off.

Regular Sandslash is already way better. If A-Sandslash doesn't get a great Hidden Ability and movepool/stat relocation then it'll be way inferior, two 4x weaknesses from very common types is terrible.

It's pretty ridiculous to say "if" for a different movepool. We know for a fact that all of the Alola forms have movepool changes, and it is likely that the complete retypes like Sandslash and Ninetales will have entirely new movepools. It is true that a 4x weakness and the Ice type in general are not good on the defensive side, but Ice/Steel is an insane offensive combo. If A-Sandslash gets a speed-boosting HA, it will rock, and even if not it will probably get one, possibly two priority moves (Ice Shard and Bullet Punch), plus it has real potential in Trick Room, with a very powerful Gyro Ball.

Ninetales is a mystery. My guess is they'll be fairly even. A-Ninetales has a great offensive typing, but Bullet Punch exists. My guess is if A-Ninetales has a great hidden ability it'll be better than regular Ninetales.

If A-Ninetales gets Snow Warning, I'm pretty sure it will be the best user of it. As it would be the perfect counterpart to regular Ninetales' Drought, I think this is pretty likely.

Alolan Muk is already way better. One weakness, an immunity, and 4 resistances is amazing, plus it has the Dark type, which means it's likely to get some of the best moves like Pursuit, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, etc... Plus it even has Poison Touch. It'll easily be way way better than normal Muk.

This is pretty hard to disagree with. Dark/Poison is one of the best defensive combos. Dark also has a lot of great utility moves, and Poison takes down the ever-present Fairies. One note, regular Muk does already get Poison Touch, but A-Muk having it as a standard ability rather than HA at least guarantees we'll have access to it right away.

Alolan Marowak is already really good with a Ghost/Fire offensive typing. Lightningrod makes for an amazing ability as it grants it a third immunity with a Sp.Atk boost upon being hit by electric moves. It's also ghost type, which means it has Will-o-wisp, so it also has a nice way to shut down physical attackers. My guess is if it forfeits defense and attack for Sp.Atk and Speed, it'll be way better than Marowak.

I really hope that A-Marowak does go Special, because it would work amazingly with Lightning Rod. I probably have the highest hopes for A-Marowak, and not just because Marowak is my favourite Pokemon << >>

Alolan Raichu is easily better than Raichu. It has a nice ability to be paired with Tapu Koko in doubles, a decent typing, and due to it gaining a second STAB it can be more flexible than normal Raichu. Plus, regular Raichu is just trash. Only issue is that Electric doesn't negate any Psychic weaknesses and vice versa so it gets extra weaknesses while also getting extra resistances too.

We have to wait and see on this really. Regular Raichu already has great Speed, and some good coverage moves in Focus Blast, Surf etc. Its main issue is that it can't take a hit from anything. A-Raichu seems to me like it will have better HP at least, so perhaps that will push it above the original.

Alolan Raticate may or may not be worse than regular Raticate honestly. It gets two immunities, but also gets a common 4x weakness with two additional weaknesses that are quite common. Hustle is a great ability, but if A-Raticate doesn't have the bulk or the speed it's going to suck.

A-Raticate's stats would have to be so, so much better for it to be passable that I don't hold out much hope here.

They've mostly chosen Pokemon that are not already very strong. So they don't have a lot of room to become worse, but plenty of room to become better. So I'm optimistic most of them will end up being better, even if they might not end up being good.

This is a good point tbh. I like that they're breathing new life into these Pokemon, even if they don't turn out "better", at least in a competitive sense.

I think Alolan Muk is the one I feel the best about. Poison/Dark is an extremely powerful typing. It doesn't even add any weaknesses, it just removes a few resistances, but also removes its psychic weakness. It loses Sticky Hold and Stench, but Stench was not very good for Muk considering its slow speed anyway.

Yeah, hard to argue against the fact that typing and ability-wise, A-Muk is better. We'll just have to wait for stats to confirm, but I don't think they'll be much different.


Exeggutor: Grass/Dragon is certainly a better typing than Grass/Psychic, for a number of reasons. It loses Chlorophyll however, for the arguably worse Frisk. Still it seems like an improvement overall.

I'm pretty sure Grass/Psychic is better offensively, as both Psychic and Dragon hit most things neutrally, but Psychic gets more SE hits. Grass/Dragon is better defensively because Dragon neutralises Grass' Fire weakness and the only double is Ice. There is no question that Frisk is far, far worse than Chlorophyll. Exeggutor's Speed is trash, but Chlorophyll made up for that one bad stat and turned Exeggutor into a beast. A-Exeggutor certainly doesn't look faster, so without Chlorophyll, it better hope it has the stats to pull off slow, bulky sets.

Persian: Better. Fur Coat alone is going to be a big improvement.

The only problem with this assessment is that the only way Persian currently does decent damage is with Technician, and you can't have both. So a Fur Coat set is going to have to go full tank, and we have no idea if A-Persian has the stats to back that up.

Marowak: My answer depends on if Thick Club works for it or not, but the typing is probably better and Lightningrod is actually useful for it.

Thick Club is irrelevant if it goes Special, which I highly suspect it will. Its dex entry talks about firing balls of flame and spinning its bone, but nothing about actually hitting people with it. To me that sounds like it becomes more of a magic wand than a club, and I expect the stats to reflect that. Plus Ghost and Fire are traditionally Special-focused types, and we've seen no sign so far of new physical Fire and Ghost moves that would suit Marowak.

Raticate: Hustle + Life Orb will hit a lot harder than Guts + Flame Orb, but it'll be less accurate. Two STABs is better than one, along with two immunities. I'd complain about the x4 Fighting weakness but Raticate already get KO'd by most unSTAB fighting moves in the first place, all this really does is make Mach Punch a problem.

I'm pretty sure A-Raticate will be better than regular Raticate, but that isn't saying much. It still won't be good unless they throw a couple hundred BST at it, and I doubt that will happen.

Raichu: Prrrrobably better? But /Psychic is oftentimes a liability as much as it is a benefit. Still an additional STAB and a very nice ability help it out.

This is a case where stats really matter, because if it can make good use of those STABs offensively, it has a really good shot. Uniquely though, it also relies on another Pokemon being good, ie Tapu Koko, because I suspect its speed will be slashed outside of Electric Terrain. Alternatively, Electric Terrain could be run on other Pokemon, but sacrificing a turn for setup is always risky.

Sandslash: Hard to say, but Sandslash already does so poorly that I'm inclined to believe the Steel typing will probably more benefits than the Ice typing removes. At least I don't see it being worse than regular Sandslash.

Pretty much my standpoint. But I really like A-Sandslash, so I have a vain hope that a HA will push it into actual usefulness.

Ninetales: Probably one of the few I can legitimately see being significantly worse. This is mostly because it will (certainly) lose access to Drought, which is the biggest reason to use Ninetales. Sure it might get Snow Warning, but hail teams are way worse than sun teams.

They are now, yeah. But spreading Snow Warning to more Pokemon is the first thing that Hail needs to be better. If we also get more abilities with effects in Hail, like a Chlorophyll equivalent, or even (please, GF, please) a buff to Ice types in Hail (offense or defense, I don't care, just something, please), then I can see them being viable. A few more Overcoat and Magic Guard users wouldn't hurt too.

Can't make any comment on Dugtrio, obviously. If it keeps Arena Trap and adds another STAB, it'll probably be better. If not, we'll see.

Pure blue-sky, but I'm really hoping Dugtrio is Ground/Fire and becomes Special. Earth Powers and Lava Plumes all over the place.

All just speculation, of course.

Exeggutor and Persian yes.

Alola Exeggutor is weak to Bug, Poison, ICE, Dragon, Fairy, and Flying. Kanto Exeggutor is weak to BUG, Dark, Flying, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Ice. So Alola form loses weaknesses to Dark and Fire (which are extremely common) as well as a 4x weakness to bug moves such as u-turn, but gains weaknesses to Dragon, Fairy, and a double weakness to Ice. It isn't much of an improvement, since he also loses some resistances (but gains several 4x resistances) but an improvement nonetheless. Though the loss of Harvest and/or Chlorophyll will also hurt it. Overall, the improvement is there, but not by much to be quite honest.

Pretty much agreed, but I think stats will determine whether it is slightly better or actually slightly worse. Dragons tend to do well in the stat department though.

Alola Persian is weak to Fighting, Bug, and Fairy. Kanto Persian is weak to Fighting. So it gains two weaknesses, however, the Dark typing is a really good typing (especially since it now gets STAB Knock Off), and it has two of the best abilities in Fur Coat and Technician, with the former increasing its defensive bulk far beyond that of its Kanto counterpart. Overall, an improvement, in both offense and defense.

Bear in mind we cannot assume they keep Kanto stats. Furfrou has "bad" Defense to make up for having Fur Coat, but that "bad" Defense is 60, the same as regular Persian's base... This does make me hopeful they wouldn't feel a need to reduce it further, but you never know.

I also think Alola Muk will be an improvement. We don't know its stats, but Poison/Dark is superior to mono Poison. Poison/Dark grants it an immunity to psychic, a weakness of poison, making it only weak to ground type moves. This helps Alola Muk a lot on the defensive side, and dark is a very good offensive typing. So overall increase in defensive and offensive potential.

Agreed.

Alola Sandshrew is def not an improvement. Gaining two 4 times weaknesses is not good, and being slower on top of all that, not good at all. Good offensive potential, but overall the mono ground kanto form is probably better.

I say again, two STAB priority moves are possible, and even if not, there is Trick Room. Don't count A-Sandslash out yet.

Alola Ninetails is not an improvement. Ice is a powerful offensive typing, but terrible defensively. Fire is also strong offensively, and bad, but not terrible, defensively. A slight dip from its Kanto counterpart.

A-Ninetales is Ice/Fairy, not Ice/Fire. Fairy is one of the best defensive types in the game. I think you need to rethink this prediction.

Alola Raichu is probably not an improvement. Adding the psychic typing is good offensively, but defensively, it now gains weaknesses to Bug (U-turn), Ghost (Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak), and Dark (Knock Off, Sucker Punch) on top of a weakness to Ground. Those are bad weaknesses to have, as opposed to Kanto Raichu which is weak to only Ground.

Whether gaining weaknesses actually matters depends on whether Alolan Raichu functions as a sweeper. See Weavile for why having every weakness under the sun doesn't matter when you have crazy STAB coverage and the stats to OHKO.

Alola Raticate is a tough one. While it gains better offense with the Dark typing addition, it also gains weaknesses to Fairy, and a 4x weakness to Fighting. Alola Raticate better look out for Mach Punchs (not that it could survive them before). Its abilities didn't give it anything over its Kanto counterpart, so overall, it probably will be weaker, though STAB Sucker Punch will be useful and give it a niche.

Its abilities do give it a lot over its counterpart. People overlook Hustle way too much. Plus Gluttony could be very useful if it gains a lot of HP. A-Raticate is almost undeniably better than regular Raticate, but it will probably still be bad.

Alola Marowak went from being weak to Grass, Ice, and Water to being weak to Dark, Ghost, Ground, Rock, and Water. While it has good offenses, and may form itself a niche, being weak to sucker punch/knock off, shadow sneak, earthquake, scald, and stealth rock is going to be killer for it, weakening it from its Kanto counterpart. And its abilities didn't make up for that.

Chandelure manages just fine, so I don't believe this doom and gloom on the defensive front. You also ignore the fact that it has three immunities. Will o Wisp makes up for Physical weakness somewhat, and it's very possible that priority will get a big nerf this gen because of abilities like Dazzling and Queenly Majesty, and moves like Psychic Terrain. Some of the Alola forms will really benefit from gaining STAB priority, but A-Marowak will very much appreciate if this new counter-priority meta comes true.

My thoughts.

My comments in bold.
 
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Erron Black

The Outlaw
My comments in bold.

The issue with A-Sandslash is the pure fact it's stated to already lose speed, while Steel is an amazing defensive type, Ice is a terrible defensive type. It not only gains two 4x weaknesses, it also loses resistances to steel and rock. So after the dust settles you're still resisting: Ice, Fairy, Psychic, Bug, Normal, Dragon, and Grass? That's still a lot, sure, but you slap Ice type on a defensive role, it's going to suck unless it has god stats. Regice, Lapras, and Avalugg are perfect examples of this. You look at the resists of A-Sandslash and, yeah they're amazing, especially with a Poison immunity, but it doesn't do anything to benefit Ice type other than neutralizing Rock and Steel. However, with all these bonuses you're losing more than you're gaining honestly. 4x weakness to Fire and Fighting, both of which are very common in the meta and one of the two has not one, but two priority moves. It also has a ground weakness as well.

Of course it's likely to get Ice Shard and maybe, just maybe Bullet Punch, but priority doesn't always equate to being a good mon. If A-Sandslash keeps it's counterpart's attack stat, it won't pull of priority at all. Look at the most common priority users in OU and then look at their attack stat. Weavile has a solid 120, Scizor has 130, and when mega evolves 150. Mamoswine has 130. Breloom has 130, etc... Sandslash has 100. That won't be enough to pull off priority. Especially since it's hinted at losing speed for extra bulk.

Also, Trick Room is waaaaaaaaayyyy too gimmicky and more often than not will ultimately fail in execution. It worked in Gen 5, but our meta now is totally different.

Also we're forgetting Sandslash has Sand Rush which makes up for it's lackluster speed. So at this point, A-Sandslash is looking to be a downgrade. Don't get me wrong, I love A-Sandslash, but I don't see it being better competitively than regular Sandslash at all.

Here's some calcs, also again, assuming it's attack stat remains 100.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 250-296 (65.4 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Ice Shard vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 265-312 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 218-260 (77.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Ice Shard vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 164-195 (53.7 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It can't even one hit a Weavile that is completely uninvested in HP with Life Orb, if it forfeits speed for defense and not attack, it's going to suck so bad that Avalugg may seem usable in comparison.
 
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JVLightningLover

Veteran Trainer
The issue with A-Sandslash is the pure fact it's stated to already lose speed, while Steel is an amazing defensive type, Ice is a terrible defensive type. It not only gains two 4x weaknesses, it also loses resistances to steel and rock. So after the dust settles you're still resisting: Ice, Fairy, Psychic, Bug, Normal, Dragon, and Grass? That's still a lot, sure, but you slap Ice type on a defensive role, it's going to suck unless it has god stats. Regice, Lapras, and Avalugg are perfect examples of this. You look at the resists of A-Sandslash and, yeah they're amazing, especially with a Poison immunity, but it doesn't do anything to benefit Ice type other than neutralizing Rock and Steel. However, with all these bonuses you're losing more than you're gaining honestly. 4x weakness to Fire and Fighting, both of which are very common in the meta and one of the two has not one, but two priority moves. It also has a ground weakness as well.

Of course it's likely to get Ice Shard and maybe, just maybe Bullet Punch, but priority doesn't always equate to being a good mon. If A-Sandslash keeps it's counterpart's attack stat, it won't pull of priority at all. Look at the most common priority users in OU and then look at their attack stat. Weavile has a solid 120, Scizor has 130, and when mega evolves 150. Mamoswine has 130. Breloom has 130, etc... Sandslash has 100. That won't be enough to pull off priority. Especially since it's hinted at losing speed for extra bulk.

Also, Trick Room is waaaaaaaaayyyy too gimmicky and more often than not will ultimately fail in execution. It worked in Gen 5, but our meta now is totally different.

Also we're forgetting Sandslash has Sand Rush which makes up for it's lackluster speed. So at this point, A-Sandslash is looking to be a downgrade. Don't get me wrong, I love A-Sandslash, but I don't see it being better competitively than regular Sandslash at all.

Honestly, Sandslash-A is liable to live or die based on how its stats are reallocated, and more importantly its movepool and HA. We know it gets Icicle Crash, which is great, and we might see it run Gyro Ball (maybe not, though, since it cant curl into a ball). But, like you said, Ice Shard would be a nice for it. Maybe not enough to propel it to the top, but it could help (especially in conjunction with SD). There is also the question of whether it will keep Rapid Spin and Ground coverage, as both would be huge for.

Oh, and you missed a resistance: Flying, which Sandslash-A utterly decimates due to its Type combo.
 

willprogresivo

Creepy Uncle
I hate the alolan forms, just like mega evolutions, in concept. Completely unnecessary and pointless. Instead of an alolan ninetales, we should have an original ice/fairy alola pokemon. I hate GF for doing this.

Having said that, I think Alolan Ninetales looks adorable, but I don't use older pokemon in new games, so I'll have to wait for the next remake/sequel to use one.
 

Bus

Well-Known Member
The issue with A-Sandslash is the pure fact it's stated to already lose speed, while Steel is an amazing defensive type, Ice is a terrible defensive type. It not only gains two 4x weaknesses, it also loses resistances to steel and rock. So after the dust settles you're still resisting: Ice, Fairy, Psychic, Bug, Normal, Dragon, and Grass? That's still a lot, sure, but you slap Ice type on a defensive role, it's going to suck unless it has god stats. Regice, Lapras, and Avalugg are perfect examples of this. You look at the resists of A-Sandslash and, yeah they're amazing, especially with a Poison immunity, but it doesn't do anything to benefit Ice type other than neutralizing Rock and Steel. However, with all these bonuses you're losing more than you're gaining honestly. 4x weakness to Fire and Fighting, both of which are very common in the meta and one of the two has not one, but two priority moves. It also has a ground weakness as well.

Of course it's likely to get Ice Shard and maybe, just maybe Bullet Punch, but priority doesn't always equate to being a good mon. If A-Sandslash keeps it's counterpart's attack stat, it won't pull of priority at all. Look at the most common priority users in OU and then look at their attack stat. Weavile has a solid 120, Scizor has 130, and when mega evolves 150. Mamoswine has 130. Breloom has 130, etc... Sandslash has 100. That won't be enough to pull off priority. Especially since it's hinted at losing speed for extra bulk.

Also, Trick Room is waaaaaaaaayyyy too gimmicky and more often than not will ultimately fail in execution. It worked in Gen 5, but our meta now is totally different.

Also we're forgetting Sandslash has Sand Rush which makes up for it's lackluster speed. So at this point, A-Sandslash is looking to be a downgrade. Don't get me wrong, I love A-Sandslash, but I don't see it being better competitively than regular Sandslash at all.

Here's some calcs, also again, assuming it's attack stat remains 100.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 250-296 (65.4 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Ice Shard vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 265-312 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 218-260 (77.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Ice Shard vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 164-195 (53.7 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It can't even one hit a Weavile that is completely uninvested in HP with Life Orb, if it forfeits speed for defense and not attack, it's going to suck so bad that Avalugg may seem usable in comparison.

I'm not very competitive-minded (though I may try and compete in some basic online tournaments this time around), but would a hidden ability and boosts to its HP, Attack, and Sp. Def provide it some help? Maybe something like a Hail-based Sand Rush? What if it were a slightly faster Avalugg with access to a Hail weather speed boost ability? Maybe drop its special attack a bit and add to special defense....along with maybe an innate boost for Ice Types in hail based weather (akin to the boost Ground & Rock types get in Sandstorm).

Would that be enough to save it a bit and make it a bit more viable?
 

Baggie_Saiyan

Well-Known Member
Explanation for Alolan Exeg on the TCG box. What if that was it's original design but they couldn't fit in the gen 1 games so they decided to shrink him and his neck?
 
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