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Regional Variants/Alolan Forms Discussion Thread

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glacialcat

Well-Known Member
One thing I hope they take advantage of with Alolan forms is I want shared Egg Moves between the different forms. For instance Ninetales gets Heat Wave as an egg move and I think it would be very interesting if Alolan Ninetales could inherit Heat Wave (and Flare Blitz, since that is also an egg move) but be unable to learn Flamethower, Fire Blast, etc. This could help in reverse as well, for instance by Alolan Ninetales adding Freeze Dry or Frost Breath to the Vulpix egg move list, letting regular Ninetales learn an Ice move but not Ice Beam nor Blizzard.

This seems especially likely for something like Marowak, since Alolan Cubone is the same as regular Cubone (except of course for some hidden value that'll determine what it evolves into), I could easily see Flare Blitz being added to the Cubone egg move list and regular Marowak getting to use it.
 

TyLogic

Well-Known Member
Agreed.

I really hope Alolan Ninetales is faster and has higher Special Attack than regular Ninetales. It would greatly benefit from even a speed boost alone. A. Ninetales is easily the biggest change in typing (pretty much becoming the opposite of what it was) However it still makes sense due to real life arctic foxes and I wouldn't be surprised if A. Vulpix/Ninetales, together with A. Exeggutor were the origin of the idea of Alolan forms.

A. Persian being a dark type, while normal Persian already knows many Dark attacks is actually quite genius in my opinion, maybe the potential for Persian to be a Dark type was always there and the selective breeding by the Alolan royalty only brought it to light?

I imagine that Alolan Ninetails is a little more slow, but with a higher special attack stat. And I guess it makes sense for Alolan Persian to be Dark. I just wanted a little more variety in its alternate move-set.

Uhh you didn't hear about fur coat

I did. That's why I think it has higher defense. Or does it have low defense, and it's balanced out by having Fur Coat?
 

Erron Black

The Outlaw
I imagine that Alolan Ninetails is a little more slow, but with a higher special attack stat. And I guess it makes sense for Alolan Persian to be Dark. I just wanted a little more variety in its alternate move-set.

I honestly think A-Ninetales will be quicker and stronger, but not as bulky. It'd be a shame to have both Ice-type Alolan Forms be bulky, as Ice is just terrible as a defensive role.
 

Orphalesion

Well-Known Member
I honestly think A-Ninetales will be quicker and stronger, but not as bulky. It'd be a shame to have both Ice-type Alolan Forms be bulky, as Ice is just terrible as a defensive role.

That's what I'm thinking as well, speed and Special Attack are exactly the two stats regular Ninetales would need a boost in, so it would make sense to give that to this variant. I agree it might not be bulkier, since it even looks more fragile than regular Ninetales.
 

TyLogic

Well-Known Member
I honestly think A-Ninetales will be quicker and stronger, but not as bulky. It'd be a shame to have both Ice-type Alolan Forms be bulky, as Ice is just terrible as a defensive role.

Makes sense I guess. Do quicker Pokemon have an advantage when using OHKO moves? I'm pretty sure I saw it use Sheer Cold.
 

glacialcat

Well-Known Member
Makes sense I guess. Do quicker Pokemon have an advantage when using OHKO moves? I'm pretty sure I saw it use Sheer Cold.

No. In Generation 1 OHKO moves failed on targets faster than the user, but that has not been true since Generation 2. Now their accuracy is only dependent upon the difference in level between the user and the target, and cannot hit a target that is higher level than the user.
 

Fiore1300

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't bank on Alolan Sandslash being slower than Kanto Sandslash. Sure the official description says as much, but it might be flavor text. Skarmory's dex entry says it moves at blistering speed, after all.

Hell, I'm not even certain if we've been told that Alolan Pokemon will have stat changes. The official website itself only mentions appearances and typings as changing in regards to Alolan forms. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, information from the most recent trailer pointed to the Alolan forms having the same HP as their Kanto counterparts. It could potentially follow that their stats also don't change.
 

scififan21

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't bank on Alolan Sandslash being slower than Kanto Sandslash. Sure the official description says as much, but it might be flavor text. Skarmory's dex entry says it moves at blistering speed, after all.

Hell, I'm not even certain if we've been told that Alolan Pokemon will have stat changes. The official website itself only mentions appearances and typings as changing in regards to Alolan forms. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, information from the most recent trailer pointed to the Alolan forms having the same HP as their Kanto counterparts. It could potentially follow that their stats also don't change.

Do the new typings work well with the old stats though? I've never paid much attention to them before honestly.
 

glacialcat

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't bank on Alolan Sandslash being slower than Kanto Sandslash. Sure the official description says as much, but it might be flavor text. Skarmory's dex entry says it moves at blistering speed, after all.

Hell, I'm not even certain if we've been told that Alolan Pokemon will have stat changes. The official website itself only mentions appearances and typings as changing in regards to Alolan forms. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, information from the most recent trailer pointed to the Alolan forms having the same HP as their Kanto counterparts. It could potentially follow that their stats also don't change.

It is true that (so far) they seem to share the same Base HP, but that might not be evidence that stats haven't changed. Almost all form changes share the same base HP. All the Deoxys, Shaymin, the Rotoms, Wormadam, Giratina, the Incarnate/Therian trio, the Kyurem forms, etc, all share the same base HP stat.

The only Pokemon I'm aware of with more than one form that do change HP are Pumpkaboo/Gourgiests and the Zygarde forms (based upon trailers).
 

JVLightningLover

Veteran Trainer
It is true that (so far) they seem to share the same Base HP, but that might not be evidence that stats haven't changed. Almost all form changes share the same base HP. All the Deoxys, Shaymin, the Rotoms, Wormadam, Giratina, the Incarnate/Therian trio, the Kyurem forms, etc, all share the same base HP stat.

The only Pokemon I'm aware of with more than one form that do change HP are Pumpkaboo/Gourgiests and the Zygarde forms (based upon trailers).

I think it is possible for Alola Forms to have differing HP, but I don't think it will be common. That said, other stats are sure to vary on a regular basis, otherwise the descriptions given for certain Alola Forms (like Sandshrew/Sandslash-A, as was mentioned) wouldn't serve much of a point.
 

TyLogic

Well-Known Member
It is true that (so far) they seem to share the same Base HP, but that might not be evidence that stats haven't changed. Almost all form changes share the same base HP. All the Deoxys, Shaymin, the Rotoms, Wormadam, Giratina, the Incarnate/Therian trio, the Kyurem forms, etc, all share the same base HP stat.

The only Pokemon I'm aware of with more than one form that do change HP are Pumpkaboo/Gourgiests and the Zygarde forms (based upon trailers).

Well, yeah, however, these forms are permanent, and can almost be considered to be new Pokemon (depending on your point of view). I'm pretty sure that Rattata in Alola hatch out being Alolan Rattata, and because Alolan Raticate is a little more hefty than regular Raticate, it would be plausible to say that Alolan Raticate has higher HP.

Speaking of hatching, if you breed a male regular Raticate with a female Alolan Raticate, would the offspring always be Alolan Rattata or would it be 50/50? (I'm pretty sure Nidoran's 50/50 in terms of breeding as well)
 

Sakuraba

Well-Known Member
Well, yeah, however, these forms are permanent, and can almost be considered to be new Pokemon (depending on your point of view). I'm pretty sure that Rattata in Alola hatch out being Alolan Rattata, and because Alolan Raticate is a little more hefty than regular Raticate, it would be plausible to say that Alolan Raticate has higher HP.

Speaking of hatching, if you breed a male regular Raticate with a female Alolan Raticate, would the offspring always be Alolan Rattata or would it be 50/50? (I'm pretty sure Nidoran's 50/50 in terms of breeding as well)

Probably Alolan Raticate, as the mother is a Alolan variant.
 

glacialcat

Well-Known Member
Well, yeah, however, these forms are permanent, and can almost be considered to be new Pokemon (depending on your point of view). I'm pretty sure that Rattata in Alola hatch out being Alolan Rattata, and because Alolan Raticate is a little more hefty than regular Raticate, it would be plausible to say that Alolan Raticate has higher HP.

Speaking of hatching, if you breed a male regular Raticate with a female Alolan Raticate, would the offspring always be Alolan Rattata or would it be 50/50. (I'm pretty sure Nidoran's 50/50 in terms of breeding as well)

Currently most people believe it will work like Gastrodon. The female will determine the form the offspring takes. They could change it, but Gastrodon is our best analogue. It's sort of the prototype of regional variation.

Anyway I checked, and I highly doubt Alolan Raticate's HP stays the same. The one trailer I could find has it at 67 HP at Lv.21. While regular Raticate can hit that number, that is neither a 31 IV/252 EV or a 31 IV/0 EV spread. It is a 31 IV/130 EV or a 0 IV/252 EV spread or something in between. Most of the time in these trailers Pokemon are not EV trained at all.

Cross checking with another person who's done HP calculations (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-vii-pokemon-sun-and-moon-discussion-mkiii-official-media-only.3584807/page-25#post-7057959), it seems likely that Ninetales and Raichu's HP values are unchanged, but Raticate's is different.
 
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Sakuraba

Well-Known Member
Currently most people believe it will work like Gastrodon. The female will determine the form the offspring takes. They could change it, but Gastrodon is our best analogue. It's sort of the prototype of regional variation.

Anyway I checked, and I highly doubt Alolan Raticate's HP stays the same. The one trailer I could find has it at 67 HP at Lv.21. While regular Raticate can hit that number, that is neither a 31 IV/252 EV or a 31 IV/0 EV spread. It is a 31 IV/130 EV or a 0 IV/252 EV spread or something in between Most of the time in these trailers Pokemon are not EV trained at all.

Cross checking with another person who's done HP calculations, it seems likely that Ninetales and Raichu's HP values are unchanged, but Raticate's is different.

Well, that answers that. At least until further proofs.

But, do we agree that Variants will have the same BST or is that still up in the air?
 

TyLogic

Well-Known Member
Well, that answers that. At least until further proofs.

But, do we agree that Variants will have the same BST or is that still up in the air?

In my opinion, it'd be near impossible to get a definite answer pre-release. So far, I think that it's safe to say that some will, while some won't.
 

JVLightningLover

Veteran Trainer
Well, that answers that. At least until further proofs.

But, do we agree that Variants will have the same BST or is that still up in the air?

Agreed. If they had buffed BST's, that would just make them attempts to replace the original Forms, and I don't think that that is GF's intent. So their stats likely won't increase, just be redistributed.
 

Fiore1300

Well-Known Member
It is true that (so far) they seem to share the same Base HP, but that might not be evidence that stats haven't changed.
By and large, I agree.

The only Pokemon I'm aware of with more than one form that do change HP are Pumpkaboo/Gourgiests and the Zygarde forms (based upon trailers).
I think Wishiwashi also changes base HP during its form change?

but Raticate's is different.
Interesting. That may settle things then. Thanks.

Agreed. If they had buffed BST's, that would just make them attempts to replace the original Forms, and I don't think that that is GF's intent. So their stats likely won't increase, just be redistributed.
I agree here. Maybe tomorrow I'll put together speculation for stat changes for some Alolan Forms.
 

glacialcat

Well-Known Member
Just to clarify, I do not know for certain Alolan Raticate's HP has changed. It is still technically within the bounds of regular Raticate, it is a valid value you could reach. It's just a strange value that takes unusual IV and EVs to get to. The total HP range it could possibly be is between 40 and 80. Current Raticate is 55. If offered money I'd probably take the bet that it is higher than 55, but it is by no means a certainty.
 
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Sakuraba

Well-Known Member
Just to clarify, I do not know for certain Alolan Raticate's HP has changed. It is still technically within the bounds of regular Raticate, it is a valid value you could reach. It's just a strange value that takes unusual IV and EVs to get to. The total HP range it could possibly be is between 40 and 80. Current Raticate is 55. If offered money I'd probably take the bet that it is higher than 55, but it is by no means a certainty.

I mean, of course. We don't have any numbers besides glimpses of HP of certain 'mons and various levels that are all over the place. We are all just speculating. But the evidence is good.
 

JVLightningLover

Veteran Trainer
I agree here. Maybe tomorrow I'll put together speculation for stat changes for some Alolan Forms.

Here, let's start things of with the first Alola Forms (not Alolan Forms; I'm not sure why that mistake has become so widespread...) to be revealed:

Exeggutor: Attacking with its long neck and hard heads certainly denotes high Attack, while it having its neck be a vulnerability indicates a drop in Defense. As a result, I dropped its Defense to be lower than Exeggcute's, while giving it exceptional offensive presence and turning Exeggutor-A into a slow, moderately bulky Wallbreaker.

HP: 95
ATK: 125
DEF: 65
SPA: 115
SPD: 65
SPE: 55

Ninetales: This is the trickiest of the 3 for me. The description it is given lends to Ninetales-A actually going Physical, as it can form ice as a sort of armor and can launch it like bullets. However, the holy energy flowing through it makes it seem like it could stay Special. In the end, I kind of just had to guess and go with my gut on this one, and it ended up being somewhat underwhelmingly mixed.

HP: 73
ATK: 91
DEF: 75
SPA: 91
SPD: 75
SPE: 100

Sandslash: This was the most clean cut of the bunch. Drop Speed, buff Defenses. Easy as pie.

HP: 75
ATK: 100
DEF: 120
SPA: 45
SPD: 75
SPD: 35
 
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