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Regional Variants/Alolan Forms Discussion Thread

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Erron Black

The Outlaw
I hate the alolan forms, just like mega evolutions, in concept. Completely unnecessary and pointless. Instead of an alolan ninetales, we should have an original ice/fairy alola pokemon. I hate GF for doing this.

Having said that, I think Alolan Ninetales looks adorable, but I don't use older pokemon in new games, so I'll have to wait for the next remake/sequel to use one.

They wanted to make older Pokemon more desirable and better. They can't just drop 100 bst into a Pokemon for no reason or suddenly change it's type from Ground to Ice/Steel for no reason.

Completely necessary and makes sense with the basis of the Region being Hawaii.

I don't understand when GF tries something new with older Pokemon so many people respond with "Stupid. Hate it. Should've been a new Pokemon."

I'm not very competitive-minded (though I may try and compete in some basic online tournaments this time around), but would a hidden ability and boosts to its HP, Attack, and Sp. Def provide it some help? Maybe something like a Hail-based Sand Rush? What if it were a slightly faster Avalugg with access to a Hail weather speed boost ability? Maybe drop its special attack a bit and add to special defense....along with maybe an innate boost for Ice Types in hail based weather (akin to the boost Ground & Rock types get in Sandstorm).

Would that be enough to save it a bit and make it a bit more viable?

If it got a generous boost to just Attack it'd be viable. My guess is that A-Sandslash will forfeit speed for both defenses and that will be it. But with it's awful Sp.Def it won't really matter on that side, it still won't take a STAB Earth Power or a single Flamethrower/Focus Blast. What A-Sandslash needs to be viable is an Attack stat that exceeds 110, honestly. If it has Weavile levels of attack it can pull off Ice Shards and Bullet Punches just fine, and the speed wouldn't be an issue.

Though a Hail equivalent of Sand Rush/Chlorophyll is needed in general for an overall Ice type buff lol.
 
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Bus

Well-Known Member
They wanted to make older Pokemon more desirable and better. They can't just drop 100 bst into a Pokemon for no reason or suddenly change it's type from Ground to Ice/Steel for no reason.

Completely necessary and makes sense with the basis of the Region being Hawaii.

I don't understand when GF tries something new with older Pokemon so many people respond with "Stupid. Hate it. Should've been a new Pokemon."



If it got a generous boost to just Attack it'd be viable. My guess is that A-Sandslash will forfeit speed for both defenses and that will be it. But with it's awful Sp.Def it won't really matter on that side, it still won't take a STAB Earth Power or a single Flamethrower/Focus Blast. What A-Sandslash needs to be viable is an Attack stat that exceeds 110, honestly. If it has Weavile levels of attack it can pull off Ice Shards and Bullet Punches just fine, and the speed wouldn't be an issue.

Though a Hail equivalent of Sand Rush/Chlorophyll is needed in general for an overall Ice type buff lol.

What about a Hail equivalent of the boost sandstorm gives to rock and ground types? That wouldn't help its special defense enough either? I really like the look of A-Sandslash lol; so I'm just trying to hold some hopes for the little guy. That and I would like to see his typing do well; Ice/Steel seems like a cool type combo (in theory, anyway).
 

Erron Black

The Outlaw
What about a Hail equivalent of the boost sandstorm gives to rock and ground types? That wouldn't help its special defense enough either? I really like the look of A-Sandslash lol; so I'm just trying to hold some hopes for the little guy. That and I would like to see his typing do well; Ice/Steel seems like a cool type combo (in theory, anyway).

Well Sandstorm only boosts the Rock typing's Sp.Def, since it boosts it by 50%, if the same were to happen for ice types in hail, Sandslash uninvested with max IVs will have 219 Sp.Def. That isn't a lot, but it'll save it from some STAB Earth Powers I'm sure. If paired with Assault Vest, then it'd be enough to tank maybe a non-STAB fire/fighting special move?

Honestly though, A-Sandslash could use just about any kind of boost it can get. It's typing is it's largest downfall, so any kind of buff would help.
 

Inconspicuosaurus

Bone-ified dinosaur
The issue with A-Sandslash is the pure fact it's stated to already lose speed, while Steel is an amazing defensive type, Ice is a terrible defensive type. It not only gains two 4x weaknesses, it also loses resistances to steel and rock. So after the dust settles you're still resisting: Ice, Fairy, Psychic, Bug, Normal, Dragon, and Grass? That's still a lot, sure, but you slap Ice type on a defensive role, it's going to suck unless it has god stats. Regice, Lapras, and Avalugg are perfect examples of this. You look at the resists of A-Sandslash and, yeah they're amazing, especially with a Poison immunity, but it doesn't do anything to benefit Ice type other than neutralizing Rock and Steel. However, with all these bonuses you're losing more than you're gaining honestly. 4x weakness to Fire and Fighting, both of which are very common in the meta and one of the two has not one, but two priority moves. It also has a ground weakness as well.

Of course it's likely to get Ice Shard and maybe, just maybe Bullet Punch, but priority doesn't always equate to being a good mon. If A-Sandslash keeps it's counterpart's attack stat, it won't pull of priority at all. Look at the most common priority users in OU and then look at their attack stat. Weavile has a solid 120, Scizor has 130, and when mega evolves 150. Mamoswine has 130. Breloom has 130, etc... Sandslash has 100. That won't be enough to pull off priority. Especially since it's hinted at losing speed for extra bulk.

Also, Trick Room is waaaaaaaaayyyy too gimmicky and more often than not will ultimately fail in execution. It worked in Gen 5, but our meta now is totally different.

Also we're forgetting Sandslash has Sand Rush which makes up for it's lackluster speed. So at this point, A-Sandslash is looking to be a downgrade. Don't get me wrong, I love A-Sandslash, but I don't see it being better competitively than regular Sandslash at all.

Here's some calcs, also again, assuming it's attack stat remains 100.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 250-296 (65.4 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Ice Shard vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 265-312 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 218-260 (77.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sandslash Ice Shard vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 164-195 (53.7 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It can't even one hit a Weavile that is completely uninvested in HP with Life Orb, if it forfeits speed for defense and not attack, it's going to suck so bad that Avalugg may seem usable in comparison.

Steel is a terrible defensive type. That is why every one of my comments was saying that it needs to be able to perform offensively to be good. All of your arguments as for why that cannot happen hinge on its Attack not increasing. I think that is one of the most likely things to increase, now that it has freaking ice picks for hands.

And yeah, two 4x weaknesses sucks, but you're exaggerating how common those threats are a tad. Fire and Fighting are common move types, sure. But Fire and Fighting types themselves are not so common right now, mainly because of all the Fairies. And even if they were, it's not even worth implying Vacuum Wave will ever be an issue, considering nothing ever runs it.

I know the Speed is a problem, as it has to be pretty bad to be slower than regular Sandslash, but a HA may still change that. Also, Trick Room is far from a gimmick. I don't know if you played any of the competitions that have been running, but any with Groudon and Kyogre allowed were dominated by Trick Room. I myself placed top 10 in the UK with my own Trick Room team last time I entered one. And with the prominence of Dragons and Fairies in that meta, you bet I would have tried A-Sandslash on my team if it was an option. There were also several Trick Room teams in the VGC 2016 championships, so it is still very much relevant.

And, I appreciate it doesn't look good, but going that in depth with calculations is absolutely pointless when we don't know what its stats will be. Again, I am pretty sure Attack will get at least a small buff.
 
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willprogresivo

Creepy Uncle
I don't understand when GF tries something new with older Pokemon so many people respond with "Stupid. Hate it. Should've been a new Pokemon."

Why is it that you people can NOT accept someone's opinion? Do I have to like everything GF does? NO. That's what a fanboy is. I'm not a fanboy. Sorry if I have an opinion of my own.
 

glacialcat

Well-Known Member
Why is it that you people can NOT accept someone's opinion? Do I have to like everything GF does? NO. That's what a fanboy is. I'm not a fanboy. Sorry if I have an opinion of my own.

And their opinion is different from your opinion, and given that this is a forum where we share and debate ideas, they are sharing and debating their opinion with your opinion.
 

Orphalesion

Well-Known Member
So the only Alolan form I'm interested in (Alolan Ninetales) is basically useless? Worse than regular Ninetales? I mean I don't do compedatively anyway, but I was hoping that my favourite Kitsune would finally get a bit of the limelight again...

And their opinion is different from your opinion, and given that this is a forum where we share and debate ideas, they are sharing and debating their opinion with your opinion.

Having different opinions is justg plain human nature and debating them and getting really into the debate is heaps and heaps of fun, especially if it is about a subject like Pokemon where the danger of actually upsetting someone with a statement is relatively low.

However statments like "I cannot understand how people can possibly have Opinion X" makes me tilt my head a little. Why is it so difficult to conceive that others have a different opinion? Statements like that are only very rarely a genuine wish to understand that differing opinion, more often they serve as a means to ridicule the people that hold that opinion.

SSo they don't exactly support or benefit an ongoing dialogue.
 

Fiore1300

Well-Known Member
On the subject of Alolan Forms, this thread from /r/stunfisk might be useful.

With exclusive regard to Alolan Forms:

Alolan Raichu, Alolan Ninetales, and Alolan Exeggutor all appear to have the same HP as (or at least similar HP to) their Kanto counterparts

Alolan Ninetales gets access to Ice Beam, Ice Shard, Dazzling Gleam, and Protect (no surprises there).
 

Erron Black

The Outlaw
Steel is a terrible defensive type. That is why every one of my comments was saying that it needs to be able to perform offensively to be good. All of your arguments as for why that cannot happen hinge on its Attack not increasing. I think that is one of the most likely things to increase, now that it has freaking ice picks for hands.

And yeah, two 4x weaknesses sucks, but you're exaggerating how common those threats are a tad. Fire and Fighting are common move types, sure. But Fire and Fighting types themselves are not so common right now, mainly because of all the Fairies. And even if they were, it's not even worth implying Vacuum Wave will ever be an issue, considering nothing ever runs it.

I know the Speed is a problem, as it has to be pretty bad to be slower than regular Sandslash, but a HA may still change that. Also, Trick Room is far from a gimmick. I don't know if you played any of the competitions that have been running, but any with Groudon and Kyogre allowed were dominated by Trick Room. I myself placed top 10 in the UK with my own Trick Room team last time I entered one. And with the prominence of Dragons and Fairies in that meta, you bet I would have tried A-Sandslash on my team if it was an option. There were also several Trick Room teams in the VGC 2016 championships, so it is still very much relevant.

And, I appreciate it doesn't look good, but going that in depth with calculations is absolutely pointless when we don't know what its stats will be. Again, I am pretty sure Attack will get at least a small buff.

Steel is NOT a terrible defensive typing. It's by far the BEST defensive typing. It resists: Flying, Ice, Bug, Rock, Normal, Psychic, Fairy, Steel, Dragon, and Grass while also being immune to Poison. It takes reduced damage/no damage from over HALF the type chart! Plus, it only has 3 weaknesses being Ground, Fire, and Fighting. It's an amazing defensive typing. No, Ice is the terrible defensive typing here, and due to it having that type in combination with Steel, it doesn't work unless it's all out offensive, which looking at the obvious speed loss, it won't be. The Ice typing here hurts Sandslash TOO much. Ice picks as hands isn't evidence enough, that's an observation. What we do know about A-Sandslash is that it's going to be slower than normal Sandslash, and with an already low base 65 speed, it won't be a speedy mon' at all. With the emphasis on the massive steel-like spikes, it's more than likely losing speed for bulk, which doesn't benefit A-Sandslash at all.

Fire and Fighting are by far some of the most common types in competitve. In OU as of now(Including BL) we've got these fire types: Heatran, Char-Y, Char-X, Victini, Volcanion, Talonflame, and Volcarona. Fighting types: Keldeo, Breloom, M-Medicham, M-Lopunny, Terrakion, Hawlucha, M-Gallade, and M-Heracross. That's a decent amount, but when you look at them as coverage moves? Do you know how many Pokemon carry HP Fire, Flamethrower, Focus Blast, Fire Blast, Mach Punch, Close Combat, Superpower, Hammer Arm, etc...? A LOT. To name a few: Azumarill, Scizor, Serperior, M-Venusaur, Magnezone(Which will trap A-Sandslash with Magnet Pull), Clefable, M-Pidgeot(Heat Wave), Alakazam, Staraptor, Togekiss, Bisharp, M-Manectric, should I go on? Even if it isn't STAB, A-Sandslash won't take a hit from either move, and they're extremely common right now, and that won't change anytime soon.

What Hidden Ability would it get? Sand Rush? Chlorophyll? Speed Boost? A 'hypothetical' speed boosting ability in Hail? Sorry, but unless the latter happens, not a chance. It's more than likely to get something like Iron Barbs if it even gets a HA.

Trick Room is a gimmick. Maybe less so in Doubles, but hugely so in singles. Trick Room isn't all that reliable, especially since there's no ability that automatically activates it, and there's no item prolonging Trick Room like Heat Rock. Easily shut down by taunters, too. Also, you mention you used it. Did you see many people using it themselves while you played? That's what matters. Not because you yourself did well with it.

Yeah, hence why I said "Assuming"? Even if it gets a *small* buff like 10 points, it'll still be largely outclassed and will find itself in the lower end of the tier lists. I'm just being realistic here, I know that looking at it's ability, Sandslash's stats, info we have on A-Slash, and it's typing it doesn't look like it'll be used over an Ice type like Mamoswine or Weavile, and definitely won't be used over a Steel type like Heatran or Excadrill.

However statments like "I cannot understand how people can possibly have Opinion X" makes me tilt my head a little. Why is it so difficult to conceive that others have a different opinion? Statements like that are only very rarely a genuine wish to understand that differing opinion, more often they serve as a means to ridicule the people that hold that opinion.

It's not that 'I can't understand people have differing opinions', I don't understand why people immediately toss something new in the bin because it isn't a new Pokemon. It happened with Megas, and again with Alolan forms. Hell, we've yet to even use Alolan forms and people are already saying they hate them and would've rather had something else. In my opinion it's silly. Happy?
 
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HydroBR

Well-Known Member
I love the concept of Alolan formes, Ninetales has a guaranteed spot on my team, and the typing is very cool. But, indeed, Ice needs a buff.
If they don't want to mess with the type chart further, they could make Hail a new Delta Stream, nullifying Ice's weaknesses. Sounds kinda broken on paper, but considering it is such a bad typing overall, it would only make a few Pokémons a little bit more viable.
Also, A-Ninetales should totally get Snow Warning as HA, even if it's not buffed. Regular Ninetales gets Drought, so it just makes sense. Alternatively, it could get Misty Surge, if they wanna go that way.
 

willprogresivo

Creepy Uncle
It's not that 'I can't understand people have differing opinions', I don't understand why people immediately toss something new in the bin because it isn't a new Pokemon. It happened with Megas, and again with Alolan forms. Hell, we've yet to even use Alolan forms and people are already saying they hate them and would've rather had something else. In my opinion it's silly. Happy?

Your problem is that you think we're saying these are bad pokemon, as in use. No one said that. I won't even use alolan pokemon this game si their usage/stats are meaningless to me. I just don't like the CONCEPT of alola forms as I don't like the concept of megas. I do like some designs. Ninetales is beautiful, Mega Ampharos is fabulous, etc. I would use A-Ninetales it in another game, I even said. But my main gripe is this:

if 12 months ago you had asked me "hey, wouldn't it be cool if next gen there were an ice/fairy type?", I would have said hell yes. But a NEW ice/fairy type, not an old pokemn redesign for cashgrabbing/nostalgia's sake. Alolan forms just scream lazyness on GF's part. Defend them all you want, and claim all you want that it takes a lot of creativity to redesign old pokemon. It doesn't. A pre-existing design is half the work. Designing a new pokemon from scratch is harder and to me, more rewarding.

Do I like Alolan Ninetales? Yes. Would I prefer an entirely original Ice/Fairy pokemon? You're god damn right.
 

clbgolden12

Alolan (and soon to be Galarian) trainer
Your problem is that you think we're saying these are bad pokemon, as in use. No one said that. I won't even use alolan pokemon this game si their usage/stats are meaningless to me. I just don't like the CONCEPT of alola forms as I don't like the concept of megas. I do like some designs. Ninetales is beautiful, Mega Ampharos is fabulous, etc. I would use A-Ninetales it in another game, I even said. But my main gripe is this:

if 12 months ago you had asked me "hey, wouldn't it be cool if next gen there were an ice/fairy type?", I would have said hell yes. But a NEW ice/fairy type, not an old pokemn redesign for cashgrabbing/nostalgia's sake. Alolan forms just scream lazyness on GF's part. Defend them all you want, and claim all you want that it takes a lot of creativity to redesign old pokemon. It doesn't. A pre-existing design is half the work. Designing a new pokemon from scratch is harder and to me, more rewarding.

Do I like Alolan Ninetales? Yes. Would I prefer an entirely original Ice/Fairy pokemon? You're god damn right.
I guess GameFreak can't do anything new with older Pokémon these days because then it's supposedly "lazy"...
 

Class Zero

We have arrived.
...Dugtrio to Dugtrio-A was a tad lazy.
By all means it's a hilarious design, but lacking inspiration and effort-required nonetheless.
 

glacialcat

Well-Known Member
...Dugtrio to Dugtrio-A was a tad lazy.
By all means it's a hilarious design, but lacking inspiration and effort-required nonetheless.

As mentioned before, I wouldn't call it "lacking inspiration." It is (probably) inspired by a form of lava glass called Pele's hair found commonly in Hawaii (and other places, but Alola = Hawaii).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pele%27s_hair

Looks just like human hair.

Whether this is a good design or not is subjective, but it was at least more inspired than "put a wig on a Dugtrio."
 
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Orphalesion

Well-Known Member
I guess GameFreak can't do anything new with older Pokémon these days because then it's supposedly "lazy"...

I think what upsets people is the combination between suddenly doing new stuff with old pokemon while also decreasing the amount of new pokemon we are getting. I doubt anybody would complain if we were getting 120 new Pokemon +30 Alola forms or something. Well realistically somebody would complain, because people love to complain, but well, fewer people probably.

Just to be clear I'm not saying GF is "lazy" and, in theory I like the idea of regional Forms (even though I don't like the execution in most cases) and think that doing an Arctic Fox Vulpix, for example is quite genius, but you have to admit it's awfully convenient that Regional forms came around after the switch to 3D models...

Whether this is a good design or not is subjective, but it was at least more inspired than "put a wig on a Dugtrio."

Yet the result is Dugtrio in a wig, no matter what it was inspired by.
 
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Julia Artemis

Well-Known Member
Diglett has always been kind of a joke they've always been the butt of jokes online. Giving it's Alolan form wigs is hilarious and a great joke and better idea than any of the fake Alolan Dugtrio art I've seen. I really like the idea and is a well played joke by Game Freak. Though most likely being X4 weak to water is pretty bad, but still I like it
 

XXD17

Draco rex
Honestly, Sandslash-A is liable to live or die based on how its stats are reallocated, and more importantly its movepool and HA. We know it gets Icicle Crash, which is great, and we might see it run Gyro Ball (maybe not, though, since it cant curl into a ball). But, like you said, Ice Shard would be a nice for it. Maybe not enough to propel it to the top, but it could help (especially in conjunction with SD). There is also the question of whether it will keep Rapid Spin and Ground coverage, as both would be huge for.

Oh, and you missed a resistance: Flying, which Sandslash-A utterly decimates due to its Type combo.

The be fair though, most of the more commonly used flying types can deal with it just fine...staraptor, togekiss, charizard, talonflame, landorus, tornadus, thundurus...just to name a few...will wreck alolan sandslash...being a defensive (or so it seems going off of sandslash) ice type with 2 VERY COMMON 4x weaknesses basically doomed this guy unless it gets to scizor level power and gets access to both bullet punch and ice shard...
 

Orphalesion

Well-Known Member
Diglett has always been kind of a joke they've always been the butt of jokes online. Giving it's Alolan form wigs is hilarious and a great joke and better idea than any of the fake Alolan Dugtrio art I've seen. I really like the idea and is a well played joke by Game Freak. Though most likely being X4 weak to water is pretty bad, but still I like it

Personally I would have found JVLightningLover's Flying type Diglett funnier than "Dugtrio with 80s hair" but, well, humour is very, very subjective. Either you find a joke funny or you don't.
 
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glacialcat

Well-Known Member
Yet the result is Dugtrio in a wig, no matter what it was inspired by.

I was specifically responding to a complaint that it wasn't inspired. I was giving it's inspiration.

Like I said, whether you like it or not is subjective. But it seems to have been inspired from a real life phenomenon and I believe we should give the design credit for this inspiration. It's an interesting part of volcanology to see represented in the game.
 

Azery

Well-Known Member
I think what upsets people is the combination between suddenly doing new stuff with old pokemon while also decreasing the amount of new pokemon we are getting. I doubt anybody would complain if we were getting 120 new Pokemon +30 Alola forms or something. Well realistically somebody would complain, because people love to complain, but well, fewer people probably.

Just to be clear I'm not saying GF is "lazy" and, in theory I like the idea of regional Forms (even though I don't like the execution in most cases) and think that doing an Arctic Fox Vulpix, for example is quite genius, but you have to admit it's awfully convenient that Regional forms came around after the switch to 3D models...

They've been around for quite a while, though nowhere near as prevalent. Granted the idea makes perfect sense for a place like Alola, which is based off of Hawaii. I like the idea, though I do wish there were more new Pokemon.
 
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