Regional Variants/Alolan Forms Discussion Thread

[Grey Wind]

No, like, if Alola Pokémon were in Kanto and adapting to the region, wouldn't we have seen this during the events of RBY and such?

Unless the multiverse plays into this.

No, because they retcon this every time a new game comes out. Why didn't we see the Pokemon from future expanded dexes in DP and BW? Why didn't Lickitung and co evolve before DP? These sort of discrepancies are inevitable and I don't think they really need to explain them.

If it's that big of a deal they can just be encountered in new areas or something.

 

[Akashin]

No, like, if Alola Pokémon were in Kanto and adapting to the region, wouldn't we have seen this during the events of RBY and such?

Unless the multiverse plays into this.

See what Grey Wind said. This would be absolutely no different than seeing new Pokemon appear in the wild in Kanto in HGSS, and those rightfully weren't explained either. The easy explanation now is the same as it was then: they were always there, and we're just now being exposed to that.

I mean, a new return to Kanto at this stage would quite likely be a return to the ME timeline's Kanto anyway, but that doesn't need to have anything to do with this.

 

[Sαpphire]

Plus, I think every new generation with remakes has written things off more as "oh, new Pokemon are appearing in [Region]!"

So if we returned to Kanto, or something, then either post-game or just through the course of the story, Alolan Pokemon - or even a mechanic like Kanto Forms - could just appear wherever, or in a new location. Maybe the Sevii Islands.

I think it's pretty cool to note that Kanto and Alola seem relatively close to each other from in-game dialogue, so that could be a major factor in Alolan Forms only applying to Kanto species thus far. If the regional forms mechanic continues to be a part of the series during this generation, much like Mega Evolution in the last, then it may be reasonable to expect a similar pattern of geographic proximity. If we stay in Alola, then we might see some Johto species or Unova species, since Johto is right next to Kanto and Unova is the next-closest based on their real-life origins. If we were to move to, say, Kanto, we might see Johto forms; if we moved to Sinnoh like many suspect, then that also might give us some more Kanto species or Johto species.

Honestly it would be cool if this were less like Mega Evolution, in that they might consider creating at least a few new regional variants even in future generations rather than letting the new forms stop coming.

 

[johno1995]

I'd be interested in seeing "Sinnoh Forms" or "Kanto Forms", whether we return to these regions. There doesn't need to be an in-game acknowledgement of "why now" -- it's all about retconning and that's what these remakes/revisitations have always been about.

Possible 'Sinnoh Forms':
Sinnoh Onix (Poison/Ground) --> Sinnoh Steelix (Poison/Steel)
Sinnoh Machop (Psychic) --> Sinnoh Machoke (Psychic) --> Sinnoh Machamp (Psychic)
Sinnoh Psyduck (Water/Fighting) --> Sinnoh Golduck (Water/Fighting)
Sinnoh Beautifly (Bug/Psychic)
Sinnoh Dustox (Bug/Ice or Poison/Ice)
Sinnoh Rapidash (Fire/Fairy)
Sinnoh Cleffa (Fairy/Dark) --> Sinnoh Clefairy (Fairy/Dark) --> Sinnoh Clefable (Fairy/Dark)
Sinnoh Hoothoot (Psychic/Flying) --> Sinnoh Noctowl (Psychic/Dark)
Sinnoh Octillery (Water/Fire)
Sinnoh Tropius (Ice/Dragon)

I'm of course using pre-Gen IV Pokemon that were in the Sinnoh Pokedex, but there's also the possibility of throwing in some more. I think there needs to be more thrown into the lore behind Regional Variants, but it's such a really fun addition that I can't see them dropping it (then again, I thought the same about Megas, who basically became irrelevant this generation...).

 

[Orphalesion]

No, like, if Alola Pokémon were in Kanto and adapting to the region, wouldn't we have seen this during the events of RBY and such?

Just like there were wild Houndour outside of Celadon city as well as Sentret and Hoot-Hoot all over the place in Kanto in RBY, right?

Oh, and like Magneton and Magnemite were Steel types in RBY, right?

And how the Clefairy, Jigglipuff and Mr. Mime were Fairy types in RBY, right?

And how no BPC in RBY who, realistically, should have known better, told us there were only 150 Pokemon right?

Kantonian forms would be one of the few reasons they'd get me to buy a game set in Kanto.

 

[DarthEnderX]

There are a couple of possibilities. The easiest being the multiverse theory

...is a sentence said by nobody, ever.

why would alola pokemon need to adapt to kanto though?

How we you know they didn't?

How do you we know that, for instance, Exeggutors didn't originate in Alola and migrate to Kanto? And that the Kanto Exeggutor isn't actually the adaptation?

All we know is some Pokemon are different in Alola. We don't know which came first unless their Pokedex entry specifies.

 

[Erron Black]

...is a sentence said by nobody, ever.

How we you know they didn't?

How do you we know that, for instance, Exeggutors didn't originate in Alola and migrate to Kanto? And that the Kanto Exeggutor isn't actually the adaptation?

All we know is some Pokemon are different in Alola. We don't know which came first unless their Pokedex entry specifies.

The dex is pretty specific with each one and it seems Kantonian versions came first in literally every single entry or official description on the site.

 

[lemoncatpower]

Idk if any of you realize that kanto and Johto share a landmass... Kanto variants wouldn't happen without them also being in Johto. So KantoJohtonian variants!?

 

[Bguy7]

...is a sentence said by nobody, ever.

Do you have a problem with that idea? You must admit that it's a very easy way to retcon something.

 

[Erron Black]

Idk if any of you realize that kanto and Johto share a landmass... Kanto variants wouldn't happen without them also being in Johto. So KantoJohtonian variants!?

The way I see Kanto and Johto is similar to North America and South America, both are shared landmasses but each have totally different climate, landscape, species, etc... Yet they still share some of the things listed. So in this case they would still be separate. You know, you could have a 'Johtonian' variation of a species while that Pokemon could not exist at all in Kanto.

 

[Ophie]

The dex is pretty specific with each one and it seems Kantonian versions came first in literally every single entry or official description on the site.

Some of the promotional pre-release information say that Exeggutor was the original kind though, with the kind found in other regions being the international kind. Aside from that, all of the other Alola forms came second. (Rattata, Grimer, and Meowth were introduced by humans; Marowak, Diglett, Geodude, Sandshrew and Vulpix arrived via unknown means but adapted to the new climate; human cuisine created a new form of Raichu).

Idk if any of you realize that kanto and Johto share a landmass... Kanto variants wouldn't happen without them also being in Johto. So KantoJohtonian variants!?

Not quite. There is a mountain range between Kanto and Johto, which is enough to create allopatric speciation because animals cannot easily cross mountains. Shellos and Gastrodon in Sinnoh seem to be in the process of it, with the pink ones on the western side of Sinnoh's mountains and the blue ones on the other. (And for a real-life example, there are two species of lizard that have both been making their way down opposite sides of California's Coastal Range that used to be the same species when they lived north of them.)

 

[DarthEnderX]

Do you have a problem with that idea? You must admit that it's a very easy way to retcon something.

No. I'm just saying that nothing about introducing the concept of a multiverse is "easy".

It might be easy to SAY "Oh, that happened in a different parallel universe" as an explanation, but you've just opened a figurative can of worms that instantly overcomplicates the setting the instant you make that a thing your setting has.

 

[Bguy7]

No. I'm just saying that nothing about introducing the concept of a multiverse is "easy".

It might be easy to SAY "Oh, that happened in a different parallel universe" as an explanation, but you've just opened a figurative can of worms that instantly overcomplicates the setting the instant you make that a thing your setting has.

Well technically, it's not me opening that can of worms, it's Game Freak themselves, as both Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire and Sun/Moon heavily imply and practically outright confirm that the concept of a multiverse exists in the games. So if we except these implications as canon, or even just almost canon, then it actually is a very easy explanation for any sort of retcon.

 

[Ophie]

No. I'm just saying that nothing about introducing the concept of a multiverse is "easy".

It might be easy to SAY "Oh, that happened in a different parallel universe" as an explanation, but you've just opened a figurative can of worms that instantly overcomplicates the setting the instant you make that a thing your setting has.

It only overcomplicates the setting if you focus on everything at once. A multiverse is an easy explanation otherwise if you focus on one universe at a time (or let other companies handle other universes). The Transformers multiverse, for instance, is quite complicated if you're taking it all in at once, but the works of fiction themselves are not really that complicated because there isn't some multiversal crossover besides promotional events.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It only overcomplicates the setting if you focus on everything at once. A multiverse is an easy explanation otherwise if you focus on one universe at a time (or let other companies handle other universes).

It also requires a level of clarity on the part of the creator that almost nobody does outside of comic books where you should clearly state, "This thing here takes place in THIS SPECIFIC continuity within this franchise."

Marvel does it by assigning pretty much every single little elseworlds or what if a specific number, and making sure every new thing that's outside of the other continuities gets a number. It makes it easy to go "Well, if I only want to follow this one continuity, then I know these things here happened, and nothing else did."

Most companies don't bother with that though. They don't care enough about their stories or about the avoiding fan frustration to put in the effort.

 

[Ophie]

That's the thing though--the fans who want to keep track of it all, for a normal franchise, will be in the minority, and it's the fans who will keep that sort of organization (and, in some cases, the people working on the stuff will sometimes consult fans on this material). I mean, of all the people who call themselves Star Wars fans, how many even care there are multiple universes?

 

[Akashin]

It also requires a level of clarity on the part of the creator that almost nobody does outside of comic books where you should clearly state, "This thing here takes place in THIS SPECIFIC continuity within this franchise."

Marvel does it by assigning pretty much every single little elseworlds or what if a specific number, and making sure every new thing that's outside of the other continuities gets a number. It makes it easy to go "Well, if I only want to follow this one continuity, then I know these things here happened, and nothing else did."

Most companies don't bother with that though. They don't care enough about their stories or about the avoiding fan frustration to put in the effort.

Okay, but if we take what Zinnia has said on the issue to be fact (which is the only reason the theory exists in the first place), they already have defined which universe is which. One has Mega Evolution, one doesn't; one had a great war in Kalos 3000 years ago that subsequently played a part in the discovery of Mega Evolution, the other didn't. All games pre-XY were in the old universe and, so far, all games XY and beyond are in the new one.

Introducing a multiverse in and of itself is complex, sure, but as it currently stands it really isn't. And to go back to the post you originally quoted, yes, I would say that claiming that introducing new Forms to Kanto that weren't there before and writing it off by saying that they weren't in the old games because those Forms only exist in the 'ME universe' is a pretty simple explanation.