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Religion in today's society

Brutaka

Ignition
I think it's funny how the holy book full of unbelievable stuff predicts "people won't believe this" and "followers will be persecuted". Sure, make sure your already gullible following develops a persecution complex and confirmation bias. I guess that's why is was written though, right?
Thank you! I've been trying to figure out a good way to say this, but I could never put the words together in the right order before!
 

Aegiscalibur

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Actually, you're the one that read it wrong, as "what goes on under the sun" implies what happens on Earth under God's authority. In other words, humans may think they know with regards to science, but there's so much of the picture that we'll never grasp. But, to put it in better context, I'd say read all of Ecclesiastes. You'll get a much better insight and the full context.

...though I predict you're not going to anyway.
Uh, they did say their belief in God's work pretty openly in that quote too. That was kind of the problem, given that you tried to portray it as a message of humility. If the message is "people can't know anything for sure, except God's work because I say so," then it's not humble, it's preaching.

The Bible, according to Aegiscalibur. Not according to everyone else! Especially me (which is why it would be a great idea to stop making silly comments like this). I think it's awesome how this book's teachings and applicable lessons are timeless and are totally spot-on even in today's modern society. No other book holds that kind of power and wisdom. Textbooks on science get old, obsolete, shift things around, disagree with each other, and so on, but the Bible's lessons will remain true for all time.
Like TheFed mentioned, it was indeed sarcasm. Yes, the Bible claims it holds the absolute truth. That's kind of the problem here. Among other things, it isn't humble in the least.

Seeing as how this is probably time #178 or so and this has really just descended into nothing more than a moderator-authorized religion-bashing cesspool, probably best to treat this thread like Sodom and Gomorrah, walk away, and not look back.
You haven't taken Norse mythology etc. very seriously though. Does respecting religion only mean respecting yours?

And this is a religion thread on a debate subforum. Debate is to be expected.
 

SILVER XD

Momentai, bro.
Now really, if you were receiving infractions due to you stating your religious beliefs don't you think that every other post you've made where you've used your religion would have been infracted? But it just so happens that that particular post was the only one. There's probably a reason for that which is unique to that post, no?
 

Techguy10110

Ghost Specialist
This happens everywhere religious or political views are being debated. Wow.

Anyway, religious beliefs have no place in today's society because we know better. During the middle ages, people had no idea about the natural world so they turned to a supernatural entity that governed the universe, and them personally. During the night, if you do not have light, a blind man is your best bet for getting from point A to point B. He knows the road better than anybody, because he does not need the light to walk. When the sun has risen, it would be foolish to follow a blind man, as your senses can give you more information than the blind man. It's all about the amount of information had. With today's technology and science, we know better than the middle age peasant. We know why the earth goes round the sun and why tides occur. Sure, there are somethings we do not know, but we will get there eventually. Religion is just a way for the blind man to explain something that he cannot see.
 

SILVER XD

Momentai, bro.

bidoofdude

Legendary Trainer
This happens everywhere religious or political views are being debated. Wow.

Anyway, religious beliefs have no place in today's society because we know better. During the middle ages, people had no idea about the natural world so they turned to a supernatural entity that governed the universe, and them personally. During the night, if you do not have light, a blind man is your best bet for getting from point A to point B. He knows the road better than anybody, because he does not need the light to walk. When the sun has risen, it would be foolish to follow a blind man, as your senses can give you more information than the blind man. It's all about the amount of information had. With today's technology and science, we know better than the middle age peasant. We know why the earth goes round the sun and why tides occur. Sure, there are somethings we do not know, but we will get there eventually. Religion is just a way for the blind man to explain something that he cannot see.
I fully agree with this sentiment. Man had nothing to explain common occurrences like we do with today's science. So, he made it up. It gave the people reassurance and confidence in those who made such statements and in the worthiness of their own lives. Unfortunately, it has been passed down so heavily that some (heavy emphasis) are unable to accept the cold truth that we live on a big rock floating through space with no purpose but to be eventually destroyed in the collapse of our solar system one day. It's hard to accept and is really terrifying that we live in a universe so vast that we can disappear as an insignificant dot.

Sure, false hope gives bliss to those who want a happy life, but it brings great sadness and conflict (I feel like I'm writing a Romeo and Juliet essay here), generations of hate that was not even intended by those who created such beliefs.

Furthermore, most seem to just cherrypick parts of their religion that they agree with, and ignore the rest. For example:

Deuteronomy 22:11 "Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together."

What? That's in the bible. It seems like I know a hell of a lot (pun not intended) of people 'going to hell' because they wear mixed fabrics. People just ignore it. Unfortunately, most don't ignore the hateful things in their religious texts, such as the (in)famous:

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable." (International Translation)

It is of my opinion, due to most scientific theory disproving many religious texts, which have not been proven originally, in combination with the blind hatred it can bring, that religion has no real place in an intelligent, united society. We may celebrate diversity of our world, but the very things that tear us apart are caused by ill belief.

Just my 2 cents. :)
 

Divine Retribution

Master of the freak show
It all comes down to evidence (or the lack thereof) in my opinion. There is no, zero, zilch, none, nada credible evidence supporting supernatural/religious claims. Not one verifiable claim out of the thousands and thousands religious people make every year. "Jesus healed my son! I saw the virgin Mary in my toast this morning!" blah, blah, blah. If there is no evidence to support a positive claim, then that claim is unreasonable to believe. Faith is not a virtue, it's gullibility. If even a single testable religious claim were presented and proven to be true, you could win a million dollars, not to mention a Nobel prize or two.

I don't care about arguments as to whether or not religion is good for the world (although when I do stray into such arguments, I see countless instances of religion being forced into other people's lives, indoctrinated onto children, and causing harm and spreading hatred for people who don't follow said religion. As Christopher Hitchens used to say, "Name me any moral action a religious man can do that a secular man cannot."), I care about whether or not it's true. And there's no evidence supporting claims that any religion is true, therefore until such evidence is presented and verified, all religions are unreasonable as far as I'm concerned. Telling me that you believe in God makes me put you in the same box as people who believe in the tooth fairy.
 

Antiyonder

Well-Known Member
Honestly the fact that some of us follow a religion without forcing religious beliefs would suggest maybe the person is the problem, not any religion they follow. If a particular person cause trouble, why not hold the person themselves accountable.

I mean whether it's an extremist Christian assuming that a person's moral failure is due to lack of religious following, or a person assuming that a person's troubled behavior is due to religion, it all boils down to trying to find a quick and easy solution to a problem.

Take the angle in homosexual debates about how some want to ban homosexuality due to religion. How can you be sure that the person in question isn't merely a bigot? Cause whether it's a religious excuse or non-religious (i.e. it's unnatural), it's arguably less about morals and more about a bigot not wanting to admit that they are a bigot.

And cliched as it may be, whether it's an Atheist, Christian, Mormon and so on, sometimes it's just a matter of the obnoxious ones speaking the loudest.
 
We've been over this several times in this thread, actually. You can't claim that people just use religion as a cloak for their already existing bigotry (though I'm sure that does happen) when bigotry is flatly spelled out in many religious texts. Plus, the whole "Religion isn't the problem, people are" is a worthless platitude. If we were to accept that, we couldn't criticize anything at all. You could say, in my opinion, religion is intrinsically violent and oppressive because there's only a few ways religion can actually survive. It can exploit people's ignorance and fear of the unknown, and if that doesn't work, it turns to violence and oppression. This is inevitable when any institution cannot survive on its own merits. I want you to tell me in what world are unsubstantiated truth claims good for anyone? Since when was it conventional wisdom that deception is just as good, if not preferable to the truth? Why do people insist on giving religion a jail out of free card? Between people that don't think religion is a serious problem for humanity because "blah blah I knew this really nice pro-choice Catholic once blah blah" and people (usually fellow social justice enthusiasts) convinced that anti-theism somehow equates to anti-multi culturalism, I'm about ready to pull my hair out.
 
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Antiyonder

Well-Known Member
Why should I have to? I don't force my religious beliefs on others. I don't use them as an excuse to harm other people. I don't go around telling people outside of religion "You're a sinner and you're going to Hell". And in cases of homosexuality I neither disapprove nor condemn them and even support their rights.

I can only take responsibility for my own actions at the end of the day.

If we were to accept that, we couldn't criticize anything at all.

Or we could critique the person themselves for not handling their beliefs correctly.
 
Why should I have to? I don't force my religious beliefs on others. I don't use them as an excuse to harm other people. I don't go around telling people outside of religion "You're a sinner and you're going to Hell". And in cases of homosexuality I neither disapprove nor condemn them and even support their rights.

I can only take responsibility for my own actions at the end of the day.

If we were to accept that, we couldn't criticize anything at all.

Or we could critique the person themselves for not handling their beliefs correctly.
Well, good for you! I mean that, sincerely. However, even if your beliefs aren't being imposed on others, I can still argue that they're harmful to society because they discourage skepticism and critical thinking. Your beliefs don't have to be imposed on others to affect them. A prime example are Christians that don't believe global warming is real, or parents that don't vaccinate their children, endangering the rest of us. Do you think we'd live in a better or worse society if half of America still believed you could turn led into gold? Or that leeches can cure disease?
 

Antiyonder

Well-Known Member
Well, good for you! I mean that, sincerely. However, even if your beliefs aren't being imposed on others, I can still argue that they're harmful to society because they discourage skepticism and critical thinking. Your beliefs don't have to be imposed on others to affect them. A prime example are Christians that don't believe global warming is real, or parents that don't vaccinate their children, endangering the rest of us.
No, I definitely fear the global warming considering the warm weather I experienced here. I mean I'm secure in my beliefs, but that doesn't mean think I go on blind faith or am fearless. But part of the territory of the rational minded religious folks is that we acknowledge the fact that we are still humans capable of being flawed.

Do you think we'd live in a better or worse society if half of America still believed you could turn led into gold? Or that leeches can cure disease?
I think people should make beliefs religious or otherwise of their own accord and respect the other's belief. And wanting to take things out on religious people who have not abused their religious beliefs is no better than the religious bigots who treat the non-religious poorly.
 
You seem to not be understanding that this conversation isn't about you, Antiyonder, the individual Christian who just so happens to have some progressive views in spite of his religion. It's about the religion, not you.

Your last bit was totally dancing around the question, especially since no one said anything about taking anything out on religious people. Goodness.
 

Antiyonder

Well-Known Member
If you mean convincing people to believe in something not true, then no. Whether they choose to believe it themselves or not is up to them.
 
Again, that isn't what's being debated. You started off by saying religion isn't the issue and that bigotry is. I took you up on this, and the best you can muster is "Yeah, but I'm awesome" No one is saying what people can and can't believe. I am arguing for what people should and shouldn't believe.
 

Divine Retribution

Master of the freak show
Faith is the polar opposite of skepticism, and skepticism is what we need to progress as a society. In addition, your beliefs are not compartmentalized, so if you believe something irrational as part of your religious faith, then that irrationality will find its way into the way you judge other aspects of life. It's human nature.
 

Antiyonder

Well-Known Member
Again, that isn't what's being debated. You started off by saying religion isn't the issue and that bigotry is. I took you up on this, and the best you can muster is "Yeah, but I'm awesome" No one is saying what people can and can't believe. I am arguing for what people should and shouldn't believe.
Then I can accept that. And really, I'm far from awesome if I'm to be honest. While I don't use misuse my religious beliefs, I definitely fail in other ways at time. Sometimes problematic, but harmless behavior and other times thoughts I shouldn't have.
 
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Aegiscalibur

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Or we could critique the person themselves for not handling their beliefs correctly.
How do you know which beliefs are correct? At least in the case of Christianity, you can't exactly ask the authors of the Bible how their seemingly contradictory book should be interpreted.
 
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