Review Exchange

[Draco Malfoy]

Okay, this is an idea I stumbled upon in the Potter fandom. Basically, one way to revitalise a fanfiction forum is to set up a review exchange. A basic "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" concept.

Concept: The gist is that a person who wants some more feedback would post a link to their story in this thread. Afterwards, another person whose story is lacking reviews will reply to the post. The two people then review each other's fics; each person gets what they want.

However, the way it worked in the Potter forum is that the two reviews depended from person to person. For some pairs, the reviews were deep, incisive and analytical - what both parties desired. For other pairs, the reviews were more cursory and simple. The fanfiction equivalent of a "Pepper Up Potion", if you will.

I realise that many people here, such as the Mods, might frown upon the idea of simple, "Pepper up" review exchanges; it can sound a little like merely stroking one's ego. However, this idea does have the power to inject life and activity into the fanfiction community. Indeed, upon my return to Serebii, I was a little surprised to find that SPP Fanfiction was different to the state it was in many years ago. Although far from dead, the fanfiction activity has dwindled considerably, and many authors are abandoning their stories, perhaps from a concoction of real life pressures and disillusionment from a lack of reviews.

I know how disheartening it can get when the hard work you have put in often goes unnoticed; sometimes, you want even negative criticism, so you can at least claim that your story attracted some attention.

In light of these problems, I propose the SPP Review Exchange. Attached to this thread is a poll. The poll concerns whether you think this idea should go ahead and/or is appropriate. The poll results will indicate to the SPP authorities if the majority believes in the concept.

The poll will close in approximately three days; hopefully, that will be a long enough time to garner sufficient interest, and a short enough period that if the Mods do feel that it may cause a riot, they could shut it down before it further impedes upon the equilibrium of the community.

Vote to your heart's discretion.

 

[Janovy]

I think this is a great idea, it would encourage other people to review the stories and would also get a review for their own story. It's a win-win situation for both writers.

 

[Plat. Frontier]

This is a great idea. I've had past experience (there was a fanon I was on that had Review Blogs) with this sort of thing, so it seems great.

 

[Dragonite Ernston]

They have a similar thing on BMGf. As I'd say on their Development Forum, UP.

 

[Griff4815]

It's not a bad idea as long as it's regulated. It wouldn't really be fair if you write up a really long, in-depth and analytical review for somebody only to recieve a review of three lines in exchange.

 

[Draco Malfoy]

It's not a bad idea as long as it's regulated. It wouldn't really be fair if you write up a really long, in-depth and analytical review for somebody only to recieve a review of three lines in exchange.

I concur. In the example I witnessed, the replier generally replied to posters who seemed to desire a similar sort of feedback (simple, analytic, etc.)

Keep in mind that over-regulation can kill the idea (it has happened before) because people seem to respond more to freedom. Moreover, we need to differentiate this to the Beta House, and the prime difference is that a Review Exchange is quite simply, a Review Exchange.

A review for a review, no strings attached. Overtly severe regulation can kill that.

 

[JX Valentine]

Y'know, I tried this kind of thing more than once on another large-name Pokémon board (that shall remain nameless but y'all on my flist know exactly what I'm talking about), but it fell flat on its face each time. So, I'm a bit torn here.

On the one hand, abso-messing-lutely, I'd love to do a review exchange because I'm an attention ***** who wants her fic to be in the top percentage of fics it's, in theory, a great way to revitalize a community. Besides, every writing community needs a little pick-me-up when it comes to reviewers in the summer months, right? And it'd be great to have more than just the same old people going around and reviewing.

On the other, it depends on how it's organized and encouraged/enforced/whatever. There's a number of ways this could go, and if you do it the way I did it (and I guess at this point it wouldn't be any harm to show you), it could go either way. I mean, sure, that other community is a completely different place, but it seems like this fandom in general has more of a lean towards a "I want reviews but don't really want to give them that much" kind of attitude. Or maybe it's just me. *le shrug*

So, for now, I'm going to vote neutrally, but I'd love to see what you had in mind specifically. Moreover, I'd like to see how you'll be making sure that the people who sign up to have their work reviewed actually, you know, review in return.

 

[Draco Malfoy]

Y'know, I tried this kind of thing more than once on another large-name Pokémon board (that shall remain nameless but y'all on my flist know exactly what I'm talking about), but it fell flat on its face each time. So, I'm a bit torn here.

On the one hand, abso-messing-lutely, I'd love to do a review exchange because I'm an attention ***** who wants her fic to be in the top percentage of fics it's, in theory, a great way to revitalize a community. Besides, every writing community needs a little pick-me-up when it comes to reviewers in the summer months, right?

On the other, it depends on how it's organized and encouraged/enforced/whatever. There's a number of ways this could go, and if you do it the way I did it (and I guess at this point it wouldn't be any harm to show you), it could go either way. I mean, sure, that other community is a completely different place, but it seems like this fandom in general has more of a lean towards a "I want reviews but don't really want to give them that much" kind of attitude. Or maybe it's just me. *le shrug*

So, for now, I'm going to vote neutrally, but I'd love to see what you had in mind specifically.

The PokeCommunity example is what I wanted to avoid; it shows the type of overt bureaucratic control that would deflate this kind of idea.

People never want to be forced to read/review something. Basically, this shouldn't be an enforced thing, but more of an implicit understanding and agreement between two writers. The purpose of this thread would be primarily to keep tabs of who-replied-to-who, so people don't get confused and lost track.

Keep it similar to SPP's PASBL "Open Challenges" Thread, if anything.

EDIT: I am going to abstain from voting. Since I was the one proposing the idea, the least I can do is withdraw my role in the final decision making.

 

[Diddy]

It depends.

Say you have someone who gives a really good, in-depth, incredibly helpful review that goes over the majority of the issues in the fic and offers advice on how to go about resolving those issues, they give a link to their fic in the bottom of this example of a stellar review.

The author of the story follows the link and just puts something like "I really like your story 5/5" then you're going to feel a bit put out.

Then you'd have those people who will go around posting on every fic giving them a review (and it will probably be clear they actually haven't read the fic and are just posting a short cut and paste generalisation) and demanding a review in return.

Also, not all writers have the ability to just review competently on command. Me and Breezy have had this conversation, we're both having trouble getting down to reviewing regularly and that's by our own volition. Imagine what we'd be like if we feel obligated to review back as soon as possible.

It's a great idea, it really is, revitalising the community is one of the things I want over here, a wider audience is a better audience, but leaving it up to fate whether you'll get a decent review or even a review at all (not everyone coming in will know or care about this reviewing scheme for example) is something that needs to be worked on a little.

With some fine-tuning, I really think this idea could fly, but as it is now, I can't see it working as intended.

 

[Janovy]

So, we will have a list with the stories people want reviews for?

And, when someone wants a review exchange he contacts the writer of the other story and asks for the review exchange. If the other one agrees for an exchange, the guy who offered the exchange has to make his review first simply because he was the one who made the offer. The two can simply discuss how they want each others reviews to be, detailed or not.

 

[JX Valentine]

The PokeCommunity example is what I wanted to avoid; it shows the type of overt bureaucratic control that would deflate this kind of idea.

:| You know, I was the one who came up with that idea and wrote those threads, so you'll want to be a bit careful with your choice of words there.

That being said, if you'd like to know why it was set up that way, it's because of the fact that no one wanted to review, which is the exact problem that I'm trying to warn you about. The systems were based on Farla's on FFNet, and Farla in turn warned me about several different reasons why hers fell flat as well. If I recall correctly, one of these is the fact that if you just let people sign up to review, they'll never actually review in return.

There are, of course, key differences in attitudes between communities, but it's hard to say which ones are just inherent for the community and which one is actually an attitude of the entire fandom. I've been all over the place, really, and no matter if you're on LJ, PC, or FFNet, if you just post up a thread that says "let's all review! ♥" not everyone's going to review on those places. But then again, who's to say whether or not SPPf would be different?

That being said, still not going to be impressed until I see more organization, really.

 

[Draco Malfoy]

It depends.

Say you have someone who gives a really good, in-depth, incredibly helpful review that goes over the majority of the issues in the fic and offers advice on how to go about resolving those issues, they give a link to their fic in the bottom of this example of a stellar review.

The author of the story follows the link and just puts something like "I really like your story 5/5" then you're going to feel a bit put out.

Then you'd have those people who will go around posting on every fic giving them a review (and it will probably be clear they actually haven't read the fic and are just posting a short cut and paste generalisation) and demanding a review in return.

Also, not all writers have the ability to just review competently on command. Me and Breezy have had this conversation, we're both having trouble getting down to reviewing regularly and that's by our own volition. Imagine what we'd be like if we feel obligated to review back as soon as possible.

It's a great idea, it really is, revitalising the community is one of the things I want over here, a wider audience is a better audience, but leaving it up to fate whether you'll get a decent review or even a review at all (not everyone coming in will know or care about this reviewing scheme for example) is something that needs to be worked on a little.

With some fine-tuning, I really think this idea could fly, but as it is now, I can't see it working as intended.

I think the key to making this idea work is to prevent people from feeling obligated to do something. The community from which I got this idea was a relatively relaxed Harry/Ginny group (which is now defunct, I think), so they were pretty fine with any review they got, from long to short. They didn't really fuss over that.

But I can perceive Diddy's point; therefore, perhaps we should encourage the second poster to reply to posters to whom their reviewing styles match.

Really, sometimes you get so desperate that you'd do with any review. I personally wouldn't be too fussed; people will have the decency to reply to posters with whom they can have a casual, implicit agreement.

You don't want to make anyone feel like they must do something.



(And your example about a person spamming your reviews? Come on, people can't be that douchey. If they are, the Mods should be able to tell.)


EDIT: D=

Holy flying crap, I'm really sorry Valentine.

I didn't realise that you were the concept creator. Damn, I should really be careful with my words next time. The H/G community I was thinking about were very relaxed about the whole process; I think the primary difference between them and us, though, is that they all wrote similar stories, centered around their common interest in a certain pairings. The Pokemon Fanfiction world, being the multilimbed beast with arms in Games, Manga and Anime that it is, might create fics of very different interests.

Which means that not everyone will feel particularly open to reviewing another story.

 

[Diddy]

Is it wrong that I see the hilarious irony of a Harry/Ginny pairing group being defunct

(And your example about a person spamming your reviews? Come on, people can't be that douchey. If they are, the Mods should be able to tell.)

You do realise this is the internet right?

That's like saying "Oh wow, there's a bug in this generic multiplayer shooter which makes a certain gun have a one-shot kill anywhere on the body from any distance? And it's rapid fire? And it has an arseload of ammo? No one will use that right? To do so would be down right douchey of them!"

Behold as the only people you don't see using it are the people who try to play the game with an ounce of respect for common decency.

You are right in a sense, a review is a review, but the whole idea is to get constructive feedback. How you can write something else which will be better? Are there any downfalls in your style that detract from the reading experience?

Getting a review that says "I like it, write more" You could argue that they didn't even read the fic and just wanted to up their post count, or if this system was in place, that they didn't read it and just wanted a review back. If they did read, then how can you possibly say that "I like it" is all they can say about it?

Nobody goes to a movie and afterwards, when asked their opinion, just reply's "I liked it" with no further comments as to why. They'd say, "oh man there was this one scene where the alien totally rips out this guy's spine! It was freakin' badass!"

 

[SilentMemento]

No. This kind of stuff never works for the reasons that Valentine and Diddy stated: you give someone a long, constructive review that you worked on, and they respond with, "5/5 plz rite moar" or - worse still - take offense to your critique and flame your stories or reply with nasty, spiteful PMs.

The concept is nice, but this never works the way it should. I'd have to say "no" based on the fact that I don't want Serebii to fall into one of the same pitfalls that plagues FFN.

 

[Draco Malfoy]

Is it wrong that I see the hilarious irony of a Harry/Ginny pairing group being defunct



You do realise this is the internet right?

That's like saying "Oh wow, there's a bug in this generic multiplayer shooter which makes a certain gun have a one-shot kill anywhere on the body from any distance? And it's rapid fire? And it has an arseload of ammo? No one will use that right? To do so would be down right douchey of them!"

Behold as the only people you don't see using it are the people who try to play the game with an ounce of respect for common decency.

You are right in a sense, a review is a review, but the whole idea is to get constructive feedback. How you can write something else which will be better? Are there any downfalls in your style that detract from the reading experience?

Getting a review that says "I like it, write more" You could argue that they didn't even read the fic and just wanted to up their post count, or if this system was in place, that they didn't read it and just wanted a review back. If they did read, then how can you possibly say that "I like it" is all they can say about it?

Nobody goes to a movie and afterwards, when asked their opinion, just reply's "I liked it" with no further comments as to why. They'd say, "oh man there was this one scene where the alien totally rips out this guy's spine! It was freakin' badass!"

Yes, constructive criticism is great; it is my favourite type of review, and the one I probably give out the most often. However, you have to keep in mind that not everyone is willing to give those out or particularly desirous of receiving one. To your movie example, I have some real life friends who aren't particularly energetic.

When we watched Super 8, their response was "yeah, it was good". When they asked me about whether Thor was worth watching, they cut me off when I said "It was good. I really like the kickass family dynamics". Their response: "I don't really care about the details. If you say it's good, I'll just watch it."

Some people are just like that. Yes, we should discourage the simple "OMG, graet sotry! 11/10!" reviews, but some people may want the simple one sentence review. Granted, even that review would have to say something and be more than just a generic copy-paste statement, but some people simply want that.

I know that even I had periods when I just wanted somebody - anybody - to say something about my fic. It might explain why so many of my fics are abandoned (that, and my pussy-assed personality. xD)

And my own experiences, SPP is a relatively tame part of the internet. We're surprisingly well behaved and refrain from plain douchey activity, most the time. If there is anyone whose behaviour is defiant to this norm, we will be able to tell pretty quickly.


And yes, the Harry/Ginny fanfiction group was dissolved; it had something to do with rabid Harmonians and in-fighting...

 

[Dragonfree]

Am I missing the reason this can't just be something where people post their fic, maybe a summary and the type of review they both give out and would like to get, and somebody who thinks it sounds good and matches their reviewing tastes might then come along and want to review their fic when they have the added motivation of possibly expecting a review back?

Sure, it could go wrong - people might simply fail to review when people do come, or they might give out reviews that don't live up to the other person's expectations. But really, that's life, and that's what usually happens when you review. People can just be conscious of the fact they might not actually get a review back when they go and review; it doesn't have to be guaranteed for them to possibly be motivated by the hope for one. Heck, maybe people could post in the review exchange thread when they do/don't get a return review so as to adjust the other person's likelihood-of-reciprocation score and advise others on who is likely to own up to their promises. The whole thing doesn't have to blow up just because of the possibility of people failing to reciprocate.

I'm picturing something like:

My fics are X, Y and Z. If you review with detailed constructive criticism, I will review back with detailed constructive criticism, as long as your fic is no longer than x chapters and not shipping.

My fic is W, a trainer fic. I'd just like any kind of meaningful review that's at least a few lines, but my return reviews will be given within three days and be like this review I wrote to fic Q, highlighting my favorite parts and commenting on story progress.

I reviewed Person A's fic and they responded two days later with a brilliant review of my fic. Person A is cool. Person B, however, hasn't reciprocated yet and it's been two weeks, just a heads up.

I'd like long, constructive reviews on my fic, T, and will also give some in return.

I reviewed Person D's fic with a long, constructive review, but they ended up arguing haughtily against everything I said, what I got in return was actually just a few shallow lines, and I suspect they only read the first chapter of my fic. Don't bother.

I'm not saying it's necessarily going to work (we won't know that unless we try) but I don't think it's completely futile. People would just have to be aware of what posting in it entails.

 

[Draco Malfoy]

Am I missing the reason this can't just be something where people post their fic, maybe a summary and the type of review they both give out and would like to get, and somebody who thinks it sounds good and matches their reviewing tastes might then come along and want to review their fic when they have the added motivation of possibly expecting a review back?

Sure, it could go wrong - people might simply fail to review when people do come, or they might give out reviews that don't live up to the other person's expectations. But really, that's life, and that's what usually happens when you review. People can just be conscious of the fact they might not actually get a review back when they go and review; it doesn't have to be guaranteed for them to possibly be motivated by the hope for one. Heck, maybe people could post in the review exchange thread when they do/don't get a return review so as to adjust the other person's likelihood-of-reciprocation score and advise others on who is likely to own up to their promises. The whole thing doesn't have to blow up just because of the possibility of people failing to reciprocate.

I'm picturing something like:











I'm not saying it's necessarily going to work (we won't know that unless we try) but I don't think it's completely futile. People would just have to be aware of what posting in it entails.

I quite like your thinking, Dragonfree. This was similar to what I was envisioning. The key, I think, is keeping it relatively informal. People find it hard to review on an ordinary basis anyway; why make it even harder for them by forcing them to do so?

 

[The Great Butler]

I voted Neutral, though my reasons are a little more complicated than that.

I tend to agree that this could be an interesting idea. But I do see why there are potential issues with it; these have been well explained by those above me here so I won't rehash them. I also think that the community here is decently active, so "revitalize" might not be the right word.

Dragonfree wrote a good assessment of some ideas we could take, I think.

 

[JX Valentine]

Am I missing the reason this can't just be something where people post their fic, maybe a summary and the type of review they both give out and would like to get, and somebody who thinks it sounds good and matches their reviewing tastes might then come along and want to review their fic when they have the added motivation of possibly expecting a review back?

Just to clarify (which actually is more of a note to SilentMemento as well), my main concern was basically whether or not we'd be able to find a system that does exactly this. It wasn't whether or not people would be able to give out reviews that were heavily detailed so much as whether or not people would actually give reviews at all -- because, frankly, past experimenting has taught me that there will always be people who just submit one-liner reviews, even if you have a "please don't do this" rule in bright, sparkly letters. (Thank you, PC Reviewing Challenge, for teaching me that, by the by.)

But in any case, yeah, I'm looking more on the cynical, skeptical, "I'm not sure how this will go, so I'm looking at the worst case scenario just to be on the safe side" area of things when Draco says that the key is to make it feel like people don't have to do anything. To me, knowing the way a lot of fic authors in other communities work, this tends to lead to a system where people would sign up for reviews but never actually submit reviews in return. So, you'd end up with a bunch of people posting their fic and maybe only a handful of people from the thread actually going around and reviewing. That's because it's pretty much the easy way of doing things. Because you told them they don't have to review, there will be people who abuse the system and just don't review. Of course, I know that either way, you're going to have people who do exactly this, and I also know that it's hard to say whether or not this number would be particularly large. However, my point can be summarized in a very short question: "What happens if it is large?"

That feedback system you're proposing might rectify that if it's put in a pretty obvious place, though, by showing people that if they don't exert some effort in not abusing the system, the rest of the community won't judge them hard. As in, sure, getting praise for just reviewing is actually a good reward and encourages decent behavior overall. So long as it doesn't dissolve into drama, of course, but I'm thinking that might be a bit on the inevitable side too, no matter which way you cut it. I mean, this is fandom, anyway. You have any sort of praise system, and there's bound to be someone up-in-arms about it. But hey.

Speaking of fandom and lulz (besides delicious Harry Potter drama -- which, incidentally, is always delicious because oh HP fandom I miss you so much)...

I didn't realise that you were the concept creator. Damn, I should really be careful with my words next time.

It's cool. *brofist* The ideas didn't work anyway for a variety of reasons, the least of which is that PC doesn't have as active a community for reviewers as SPPf does. So, in reality, you might actually be able to get this idea to work via Dragonfree's idea of encouragement-but-not-really-explicit-encouragement because SPPf has a stronger reviewer base than PC (and, for that matter, FFNet, LJ, dA, and God knows where else I've been). But honestly, I'm still on the "won't completely say whether or not it will because nothing is ever a sure thing" bandwagon for now.

 

[SilentMemento]

Just to clarify (which actually is more of a note to SilentMemento as well), my main concern was basically whether or not we'd be able to find a system that does exactly this. It wasn't whether or not people would be able to give out reviews that were heavily detailed so much as whether or not people would actually give reviews at all -- because, frankly, past experimenting has taught me that there will always be people who just submit one-liner reviews, even if you have a "please don't do this" rule in bright, sparkly letters. (Thank you, PC Reviewing Challenge, for teaching me that, by the by.)

Yeah, that's another problem that you mentioned. Some people only care about their own fics and the reviews that they get, and they're not going to change for anyone. Some people simply don't give a rat's rear about other fics. So, basically, you have those kinds of reviewers, the reviewers who leave short copy-and-paste reviews, and the reviewers who can't take constructive criticism at all.

So, except for the fact that I look at this a lot more pessimistically than most people, I guess I agree with what you're saying.

(And, yes, I happened to look at the aforementioned Reviewing Challenge thread.)