RNG abusing, Hacking or not?

[kabzy]

Im definitely gonna try it out when i find out my secret id, but i do think it is just hacking without the use of external devices.

 

[arceus7]

Im definitely gonna try it out when i find out my secret id, but i do think it is just hacking without the use of external devices.

yes but its not the literal definition of hacking in the dictionary since hacking involves external devices. Besides all your doing is figuring out different things you have to do to influence what you want. Anyway the RNG is what cause which pokemon and or items they have appear and wether or not their shiny BTW people don't want to SR for things 100000 so that their game cartridge burns out from the constant turning on and off.

 

[miloticsavior]

Well obviously all the lazy people are going to say it's not hacking though it clearly is. I think people only do things like this to get attention for there shiny pokemon with 31 ivs...I mean really people.

 

[Kreis]

Well obviously all the lazy people are going to say it's not hacking though it clearly is. I think people only do things like this to get attention for there shiny pokemon with 31 ivs...I mean really people.

No, it's not hacking. No external device is used to directly manipulate the game's data; therefore, it's not hacking. I don't even play Pokemon games anymore, so what category do I fall under?

 

[Arande]

Well obviously all the lazy people are going to say it's not hacking though it clearly is. I think people only do things like this to get attention for there shiny pokemon with 31 ivs...I mean really people.

I've got over 150 EV'd pokes, 250some shinies BEFORE I learned to RNG, and over 6000 trades, and you call me lazy?

Anyways, please clarify how it "clearly is" Just because you don't like something doesn't change if it's hacking, cheating, or not.

 

[Hydrohs]

Im definitely gonna try it out when i find out my secret id, but i do think it is just hacking without the use of external devices.

It's not hacking. There is nothing being used to change how the game works.

Well obviously all the lazy people are going to say it's not hacking though it clearly is. I think people only do things like this to get attention for there shiny pokemon with 31 ivs...I mean really people.

Except it's clearly not. I don't use RNG and I don't plan to because I'm too lazy to find my secret ID and try to use RNG. It's not hacking in any way, and saying so makes you look like a fool.

 

[arceus7]

you call them lazy but its not really being lazy though I for one am not lazy and never gotten a shiny gible after 5000 egs after 2 years using masuda method and its annoying to spend TWO years on something besides its just a little bit of data. I don't want to burn out my ds's battery or my platinum game card after thousands of sring and a whole bunch of stuff like leaving it on.

 

[Hiro__]

Okay. I said that it's not hacking, but only because you don't use external cheating devices. As far as i can tell, it's basically like soft resetting until you get a shiny legendary or a good nature on said legendary, and i don't think that's too horrible. It's something that was going to be done by someone, eventually and spread from there. It's technically built into the game, so some people are going to abuse it, and others won't. I don't understand it 100% but i do soft reset for shiny legends. (no luck yet... :/) however, that's all i soft reset for... but whatever, i don't think its hacking or cheating.

 

[Troggy]

This thread has gone quite some distance on the question of whether RNG is 'hacking' or not, but I don't really see that as the main concern. Rather than argue about semantics, I thought I might raise the point of what RNG is actually doing to the worldwide community, and thus Wi-Fi 'metagame', if you could call it that.

The major impacts of RNG abuse are:

1. Devaluing of shinies, especially those without good natures/IVs/egg moves
2. Negation of advantage gained by hacking perfect IV'd Pokemon
3. Slow transformation of Wi-Fi metagame to DS Shoddy Metagame

Despite there only being three items here, I think all of them are important. The first is something that primarily impacts the trade market. Shinies have been getting consistently easier to find as time has gone on, and that is fine. Many players are interested in the different colored variations, and through the various methods available in Gen IV, you are more likely than ever to run into one. Even with the increased availablility, the rarity of shinies has been good as currency. With the advent of RNG, players can spit out random shinies virtually at will, and with some effort can make shinies that are as good as their normal colored counterparts.

With the supply increasing rapidly, and omnipresent cloning using AR or GTS, the trade market is being flooded with playable shiny clones that nearly anyone can get. This is what (to me, and other competitive minded players) has made shinies from chains, random encounters, or masuda method completely worthless. If I want a shiny with a random nature and random IVs, it is only minutes away. That demotivates players to trade for shinies of that kind that anyone else has, despite how much work they may have put into getting them. While the market may never completely saturate (due to new players, players without ability to RNG, etc), it is getting harder and harder to find good trades for shinies that aren't up to snuff.

While the concern about devaluing something the game had determined to be 'valuable' is important, nothing is more crucial than what RNG IV breeding is doing. Some players are not competitive battle minded, and that is understandable, but in a community when only the best will succeed, RNG abuse is pushing the limits of what is possible, as well as blurring the line between legit and hack. At first, the RNG prospect seemed like a helpful tool to reduce breeding times and have more control over your output. However, it has become so widespread, that players are able to tune legends down to the precise hidden power they would like.

Due to this level of control, there is now very little (if any) difference between a RNG'd Pokemon (done by a competant player), and a flawless IV AR hack. To add insult to injury, people who have experience with AR can hack pokemon that appear to be RNG'd to have flawless IVs, and no one will be the wiser. We have set ourselves up for this by abusing the system to the extent where even perfect Pokemon are considered legitimate by virtue of the player they came from, or the method they were obtained.

The main thing that this comes down to is 'level playing field'. Is there one? If there isn't, how can it be achieved? Currently, people who are RNG'ing and distributing have access to flawless/near flawless competitively tuned Pokemon basically at will. For the outsider, the only way to compensate for this now inherent advantage is to either a) IV breed without RNG and hope for comparable results or b) Hack a team that is level with the RNG products.

Just to make my point clear, I will repeat: In terms of competitive battling there is now little to no difference between RNG'ing and AR Hacking. I don't mean in the sense that one could possibly be flagged at a Nintendo sanctioned event and one can't. I mean that once the Pokemon are on the battle field, neither player has an inherent advantage based on the quality of the members of their team. It is essentially Shoddy battle on the DS.

That is a nice transition to my final point, which is the evolution of an unpredictable and imperfect Wi-Fi metagame to a DS Shoddy environment. If you play Wi-Fi battles against Smogon members, you may as well just do it online. Their teams will be flawless or near flawless, with all the exact Hidden Powers, moves, abilities, that they wanted. Every IV point you have missed due to lack of IV breeding, or IV breeding the old fashioned way puts you behind the curve. I doubt there is anyone who edits their Shoddy team to represent what they actually have in the cartridge, but that is essentially what Wi-Fi will become. Your opponent will have an exact copy of what they have online, and without using something to even it out, your team will be the online counterpart without the maximum points.

Granted the Wi-Fi community is quite large, and exists many places beyond Smogon, but the fact that this kind of atmosphere has begun to form, and may very well spread as the Pokemon are cloned/distributed/re-cloned/re-distributed, it is a concern for me. It will become exceedingly difficult to play a Standard match against someone else who doesn't RNG or Hack yet still knows what they are doing. Just because I am one of those people doesn't mean the overall numbers support that kind of player.

While the argument to whether RNG abuse is 'hacking' or not is somewhat valid, it's missing the point of what is really going on here. Just like any other thing in life, many players are doing everything they can to get ahead, reassuring themselves that while they are producing Pokemon that might as well be hacked, they are doing it in a 'legit' way. Although I still would argue that RNG abuse is not hacking, it is destroying trade forums, Wi-Fi communities, and at least this player's motivation to even try. I'm not writing this as a complaint, as I cannot change anything about it. My goal is to show, that in the near future, AR hacking will not provide any advantage over someone who uses 'legit' Pokemon, and that is a sad news story for those of us who actually work at breeding the traditional way and are actually the OT of our team.

Just wanted to make a note, the best IV bred Pokemon I have produced so far is a Lonely Swift Swim Kingdra 30/31/28/27/30/31. I was very pleased when I got it (it took quite some time to make), but after seeing so many offers on Smogon, PokeCommunity, and elsewhere for virtually flawless RNG Kingdras that can be cloned and shipped to you at minimal cost, it just seemed to be a little bit in vain. The only thing that anyone like me has to hold onto is the fact that the Pokemon was actually created by me, and is unique. To be fair, no one cares about uniqueness when they are trying to win.

 

[KKInu]

It's not technically hacking, but I do think it's unfair since you're manipulating the system to get what you want. It's unfair to people who don't know how to do this and/or still try their hardest to raise their Pokemon to meet certain standards naturally. And like some other people said it defeats the purpose of Shinies being rare

 

[Arande]

Well, in a way that is just how progression is. An easier method of doing something is found, it will be used. Even Nintendo themselves make things easier to IV breed, as with the discovery of power items "locking" IV's to be inherited in HG/SS. What were your chances to get a poke with all 30+ before? What are they with 2 31's garunteed? Does that mean this is bad as I have an advantage in IV breeding over those that don't have HG/SS or know about it?

As for fairness in between RNGing and raising pokes the old fasioned way. Know it will sound harsh, but stat-wise, all that matters are those numbers. Whether you got lucky and found a great IV'd poke, or breed for months is irrelevant. (this isn't the anime where, brandons regirock beats hariyama because it's better trained, it's, a game where rock < fighting) How is comparing RNG'd pokes to normal ones different than say, comparing my legends/events I SR'd for to someone that just took the first one the delivery guy gave them? As my modest darkrai with 30 sp att 31 speed will have an advantage over one that is lax w 15 and 20.

You are never going to have a "level playing field" as, unless nintendo hand writes every hidden detail in the instruction booklet, there will be things some people will never know. Doing that will completely defeat the purpose of Nintendo adding said hidden mechanics to begin with (in what you are talkinga bout, IV's)

AND RNGing doesn't "push the limits of what is possible" as the results are possible to begin with, just unlikely.

Anyways, short version. Your arguments are those brought up whenever any mechanic that gives someone an advantage over another is discovered (IV breeding, EV training, chained shinies vs randomly encountered, etc) The difference is the scale of effect RNGing has.

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

RNG Manipulation Is Unfair

While the argument to whether RNG abuse is 'hacking' or not is somewhat valid, it's missing the point of what is really going on here.

This is why I choose not to vote on the question as asked.

AND RNGing doesn't "push the limits of what is possible" as the results are possible to begin with, just unlikely.

Shinies have been getting consistently easier to find as time has gone on, and that is fine. Many players are interested in the different colored variations, and through the various methods available in Gen IV, you are more likely than ever to run into one. Even with the increased availablility, the rarity of shinies has been good as currency. With the advent of RNG, players can spit out random shinies virtually at will, and with some effort can make shinies that are as good as their normal colored counterparts.

I agree with Troggy and not Arande. (Troggy, you put an impressive amunt of thought into your post!)

Making something more common, easier to get, in less time, etc. is what RNG abuse is all about. The alchemists sought to turn common materials into gold, but what would happen if (most)everyone knew the secret? The RNG method appeals to people who want power over others. That is why I believe it is almost entirely unfair.

We can only pray that in the future Nintendo will make RNG manipulation so complex as to be virtually impossible.

 

[Tiomasta]

We can only pray that in the future Nintendo will make RNG manipulation so complex as to be virtually impossible.

Amen to that.

 

[Arande]

Making something more common, easier to get, in less time, etc. is what RNG abuse is all about. The alchemists sought to turn common materials into gold, but what would happen if (most)everyone knew the secret? The RNG method appeals to people who want power over others. That is why I believe it is almost entirely unfair.

I was just ranting, and for some reason, feel like answering that question.

If everyone knew the secret, the results would be akin to what happened to aluminium. It used to be worth more than gold, but after people learned to process it, it's used for our drink containers we throw in the trash without a second thought...

What makes you think something in a game will not be affected in a similar way? That is, what was once considered rare is now more easily obtained. The value of anything is never set in stone, it's what the buyer will pay for it, supply and demand, etc.

If you are trying to say it is bad as it devalues shinies due to them being more common, and therefore makes them worth less in trades. Well, yes, it does that, but whether it is bad or good is subjective.

Not trying to sound harsh, but I am not going to sugar coat it either.

Anyways, in HG/SS they are having trouble RNGIng things as the game seems to randomly skip frames. That is not to say they won't eventually find out what the "random" factor is. As for making it complex, hope nintendo makes it continuous (3rd gen) rather than player controllable (4th). The problem is that even the RNG has to have some base input as to where to start. As soon as that base input is discovered, it is possible to manipulate.

 

[ShinySandshrew]

Here's something to consider: If you can RNG, why even be on a forum? You can make whatever you want with RNG. Does it serve any purpose to be on a site like this or even do any trading? If you can get loads of awesome Pokemon, what is the point of doing anything with other people? Yes, I know that you can battle with your juggernauts but what's the point unless you're playing against someone who has weaker Pokemon?

To all you who say that using massively powerful Pokemon to battle is fun: Why don't you try getting into the MLB/NBA/NFL and use steroids?

 

[Hydrohs]

Making something more common, easier to get, in less time, etc. is what RNG abuse is all about. The alchemists sought to turn common materials into gold, but what would happen if (most)everyone knew the secret? The RNG method appeals to people who want power over others. That is why I believe it is almost entirely unfair.

We can only pray that in the future Nintendo will make RNG manipulation so complex as to be virtually impossible.

It's not unfair. Everyone can do it. The only people that can't are those that chose not to, therefore you chose to put yourself at a 'disadvantage'.

The problem would e resolved if Gamefreak used a real RNG.

 

[arceus7]

Here's something to consider: If you can RNG, why even be on a forum? You can make whatever you want with RNG. Does it serve any purpose to be on a site like this or even do any trading? If you can get loads of awesome Pokemon, what is the point of doing anything with other people? Yes, I know that you can battle with your juggernauts but what's the point unless you're playing against someone who has weaker Pokemon?

To all you who say that using massively powerful Pokemon to battle is fun: Why don't you try getting into the MLB/NBA/NFL and use steroids?

Those people do it for events and most people never learn about RNG except from places like these online.
you get tested for drugs before

 

[randomspot555]

Here's something to consider: If you can RNG, why even be on a forum? You can make whatever you want with RNG. Does it serve any purpose to be on a site like this or even do any trading? If you can get loads of awesome Pokemon, what is the point of doing anything with other people? Yes, I know that you can battle with your juggernauts but what's the point unless you're playing against someone who has weaker Pokemon?

To all you who say that using massively powerful Pokemon to battle is fun: Why don't you try getting into the MLB/NBA/NFL and use steroids?

Go to serebiiforums.com. There is much more to do here than trade and battle. Maybe you didn't notice.

No one died and made you dictator of SPPF. People can come here for whatever reason they want, because there are forums here for just about every segment of Pokemon fandoms.

The major impacts of RNG abuse are:

1. Devaluing of shinies, especially those without good natures/IVs/egg moves

**Before I proceed, I know you covered many of my points later in your post. This isn't all specifically to you, but a general message**
The "value" of shinies has been a complete hoax. Considering that only a small portion can actually use digital legality checking programs (And an even smaller portion, regulated by the official tournaments, can use official hack checking machines), most people can only tell a hack vs a legit Pokemon by the visible summary data.

Ever since Gen I, there's been a cloning method. In Emerald, it's extremely easy to clone. In Gen 4, GTS can clone, and there's still a Gen I-esque risk method for cloning during a trade. And of course, there's Action Replay cloning. All of these, at least on the surface, appear as perfect copies of the original Pokemon.

Add in the increase use of soft-resetting, chaining, and the Masuda method, and even legit shinies have been extremely devalued by the game developers themselves.

I think the "value"/"economy" of trading Pokemon is something that turns off a lot of people while trading. IT's basically what burned me out. It was only long after I learned a lot that I knew most of my Pokemon were, at best, cloned, and most likely hacked.

I mean, I hang out with a group of Pokemon fans at another forum. Every dozen or so pages, we talk about our incredibly bad luck of never finding shinies even during chaining. The fact is, most people don't RNG, or even attempt to chain that often or Masuda method enough for them. I honestly think it's a small portion of Pokemon players that do this.

2. Negation of advantage gained by hacking perfect IV'd Pokemon

Don't see this as a problem because..well, look here. Most of SPPF are (no offense, d00ds) confused by the concept of EVs and IVs. The fact is there's a battling community for everyone, and you can easily find any type of battling if you look hard enough.

3. Slow transformation of Wi-Fi metagame to DS Shoddy Metagame

And if that's what people want then that's how it should be. But Jumpman and co from Smogon aren't hiring Yakuza to eliminate other forms of battling. I can still hop on PBR and face whatever gimmick team or overpowered ubers I feel like.

a) IV breed without RNG and hope for comparable results or b) Hack a team that is level with the RNG products.

And similarly, to someone who wonders why their lvl 61 Torterra that beat Cynthia's Garchomp lost against someone's Dugtrio, then they need to learn to EV train and all the other essential mechanics to do competitive battling (i hate that term), or they need to find people who play by rules of their liking. There's plenty of free-for-all battlers out there.

it is destroying trade forums,

Trade forums are a cesspool anyway. I don't want to flame other Pokemon web sites, so I won't name names, but people seem to get very insular. IE if they only see Alamos Darkrais with a Quirky, Modest, and Jolly nature on whateverforums.com, then they'll all be going "HAXORS! Adamant Darkrai from ALAMOS isn't possible!" I've rarely had good experiences with trading in large websites. I've had much better deals on smaller sites.

It's not technically hacking, but I do think it's unfair since you're manipulating the system to get what you want. It's unfair to people who don't know how to do this and/or still try their hardest to raise their Pokemon to meet certain standards naturally. And like some other people said it defeats the purpose of Shinies being rare

If they don't know, they can learn. You have to learn a ton of other game mechanics, and RNG isn't exactly rocket science. It's a bit daunting, but not as mind blownig as many here are making it out to be.

Well, in a way that is just how progression is. An easier method of doing something is found, it will be used. Even Nintendo themselves make things easier to IV breed, as with the discovery of power items "locking" IV's to be inherited in HG/SS. What were your chances to get a poke with all 30+ before? What are they with 2 31's garunteed? Does that mean this is bad as I have an advantage in IV breeding over those that don't have HG/SS or know about it?

As for fairness in between RNGing and raising pokes the old fasioned way. Know it will sound harsh, but stat-wise, all that matters are those numbers. Whether you got lucky and found a great IV'd poke, or breed for months is irrelevant. (this isn't the anime where, brandons regirock beats hariyama because it's better trained, it's, a game where rock < fighting) How is comparing RNG'd pokes to normal ones different than say, comparing my legends/events I SR'd for to someone that just took the first one the delivery guy gave them? As my modest darkrai with 30 sp att 31 speed will have an advantage over one that is lax w 15 and 20.

You are never going to have a "level playing field" as, unless nintendo hand writes every hidden detail in the instruction booklet, there will be things some people will never know. Doing that will completely defeat the purpose of Nintendo adding said hidden mechanics to begin with (in what you are talkinga bout, IV's)

AND RNGing doesn't "push the limits of what is possible" as the results are possible to begin with, just unlikely.

Anyways, short version. Your arguments are those brought up whenever any mechanic that gives someone an advantage over another is discovered (IV breeding, EV training, chained shinies vs randomly encountered, etc) The difference is the scale of effect RNGing has.

Wonderful post. Much better said than how I did.

The RNG method appeals to people who want power over others. That is why I believe it is almost entirely unfair.

Way to speak for a few hundred/thousand people and make them seem like power hungry jerks.

We can only pray that in the future Nintendo will make RNG manipulation so complex as to be virtually impossible.

*sigh*Nintendo doesn't make the games.

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

My comments

Go to serebiiforums.com. There is much more to do here than trade and battle. Maybe you didn't notice.

That's probably the main thing I disagree with in ShinySandshrew's post. Sorry Bro.

Don't see this as a problem because..well, look here. Most of SPPF are (no offense, d00ds) confused by the concept of EVs and IVs. The fact is there's a battling community for everyone, and you can easily find any type of battling if you look hard enough.

I really don't think that's true. Most people I've seen on this website seem to know a lot more than the few Pokemon fans I've met in person. Also, if these people don't understand IVs and EVs, how can they understand RNG manipulation? Not everyone can RNG manipulate because not everyone has a random shiny they caught themselves. (Is there a way to find your secret ID that absolutely everyone can use? Tell me if there is.)

Trade forums are a cesspool anyway. I don't want to flame other Pokemon web sites, so I won't name names, but people seem to get very insular. IE if they only see Alamos Darkrais with a Quirky, Modest, and Jolly nature on whateverforums.com, then they'll all be going "HAXORS! Adamant Darkrai from ALAMOS isn't possible!" I've rarely had good experiences with trading in large websites. I've had much better deals on smaller sites.

You've got a good point. Trade forums are full of junk (as well as rulebreakers). But I've gotten some exceptionally good trades. You appear to be blowing the trade forum difficulties out of proportion.

This is somewhat off topic, but...

*sigh*Nintendo doesn't make the games.

Yes, I do know that Game Freak is the developer. Nintendo might not be the developer, but they have a lot of control over the games. Perhaps you didn't notice that it says Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection right in the game. They don't even need a trademark symbol. Did you realize that the clown in Veilstone City who says, "A winner is you!" when you win his challenge is making a Legend of Zelda reference?

 

[Hurricos]

I was previously set on the thought that RNG abuse was in the category of hacking but, that was only because I couldn't figure it out for myself even though I've tried several times but to no success. So now my thinking and reasoning is that RNG abuse is not hacking because it's just part of the game's mechanics and it was only a matter of time before someone cracked it. One could compare this as to the game mechanics behind finding a shiny with the pokeradar, the ratio of finding a shiny is maximized after reaching 40 to allow for shinies to be easily found. So that's my take on this whole RNG matter, good luck to all who wish to learn the way of breeding for flawless pokemon.