RNG abusing, Hacking or not?

[TheFightingPikachu]

Which One?

But I must ask, does this refer to when you start up your DS, when you punch the "New Game" button, when you get into the game (after some prof. introduces it...lol), or when you get your Pokemon?

It's at the point when you select New Game.

It's when you press A to dismiss the TV program (Red Gyarados/Rowan's speech). You'll also need to know roughly how long you spent in the intro sequence before this (between starting up the game and pressing A to dismiss the TV); divide this by 60 (the DS runs at 60 FPS) to get roughly the frame your ID was generated on. Using ID Finder to search for a few hundred frames either side of that, you should get a single result.

Okay, now I'm in a pickle. Let me ask you wichu--how do you know your starting point is the correct one? Does anyone know what the starting point is in HG/SS? That is the only new game I will be starting anytime soon (soon being a relative term because I'm waiting until the US release).

 

[Tiomasta]

I was previously set on the thought that RNG abuse was in the category of hacking but, that was only because I couldn't figure it out for myself even though I've tried several times but to no success. So now my thinking and reasoning is that RNG abuse is not hacking because it's just part of the game's mechanics and it was only a matter of time before someone cracked it. One could compare this as to the game mechanics behind finding a shiny with the pokeradar, the ratio of finding a shiny is maximized after reaching 40 to allow for shinies to be easily found. So that's my take on this whole RNG matter, good luck to all who wish to learn the way of breeding for flawless pokemon.

It's completely different.
The programmers didn't do the RNG so you could abuse it, but they did program chaining for you to get shinies.

Sounds like cheating, but it's not *shrugs*

Of course it is.

 

[arceus7]

if your going on about how Rng abuse is hacking or cheating then you clearly did not read the very good posts here. thats within your grasp in a matter of moments. I commend hydrohs and all those who took part in the small debate.

 

[DUCKAtl]

in my opinion if you hack legal stats using say Pokesav, and give it everything a regular poke has like date it was met, where, ev's, items, possible moves, i think its fine but once we cross over into a Blissey with all 31 IV, 255 for all Ev's, ****ing Leftovers, and all OHKO moves it becomes pure cheating

 

[Hydrohs]

It's completely different.
The programmers didn't do the RNG so you could abuse it, but they did program chaining for you to get shinies.



Of course it is.

When something is put into a game people are going to find other uses for it. it doesn't make it cheating at all. When Gamefreak made these games they probably didn't think of half the strategies currently in use, does that make our competitive metagame cheating? No it doesn't. It is in the game, we are using it. It is not cheating by any definition.

 

[Coolwonder]

You people aren't thinking about HOW MUCH, as in what level of hacking would you put RNG TO? Would you put it up there with AR and Pokesav? Or is it just the simple "external device" stuff I've been coming to. Then thinking is it game wrong or morally wrong.

 

[Coolwonder]

Put it this way, have you RNGed before or not. If not then consider trying before making assumptions

 

[Hydrohs]

You people aren't thinking about HOW MUCH, as in what level of hacking would you put RNG TO? Would you put it up there with AR and Pokesav? Or is it just the simple "external device" stuff I've been coming to. Then thinking is it game wrong or morally wrong.

It's definitely not game wrong, and morals are entirely subjective. In my opinion something like RNG is not against any morals, no one is hurt by it so why stop its use?

 

[Coolwonder]

It's definitely not game wrong, and morals are entirely subjective. In my opinion something like RNG is not against any morals, no one is hurt by it so why stop its use?

I guess it depends on the person responding and what morals or codes they abide to. I seriously don't think RNG is against my morals and is perfectly fine and you are using something within game bounds

 

[Troggy]

**Before I proceed, I know you covered many of my points later in your post. This isn't all specifically to you, but a general message**
The "value" of shinies has been a complete hoax. Considering that only a small portion can actually use digital legality checking programs (And an even smaller portion, regulated by the official tournaments, can use official hack checking machines), most people can only tell a hack vs a legit Pokemon by the visible summary data.

Ever since Gen I, there's been a cloning method. In Emerald, it's extremely easy to clone. In Gen 4, GTS can clone, and there's still a Gen I-esque risk method for cloning during a trade. And of course, there's Action Replay cloning. All of these, at least on the surface, appear as perfect copies of the original Pokemon.

Add in the increase use of soft-resetting, chaining, and the Masuda method, and even legit shinies have been extremely devalued by the game developers themselves.

I think the "value"/"economy" of trading Pokemon is something that turns off a lot of people while trading. IT's basically what burned me out. It was only long after I learned a lot that I knew most of my Pokemon were, at best, cloned, and most likely hacked.

It's true. However, there is still a large market for shinies regardless of what forum you are on. Collecters, new players, regardless of who it is, are hunting for shinies. I guess my point is, that between RNG'ing and cloning, there are very few unique shinies being passed around, and they are just less exciting to get.

I know shinies in general are more common, but that doesn't automatically make good natured/IV'd/egg moved shinies more available. That's what RNG does. The Masuda method is garbage since you can't control nature, chaining doesn't let you do Egg Moves or IVs, random encounters are obviously random as is soft resetting (synchronize can do nature if you are lucky). The exponential increase of 'playable' shinies is something that RNG is responsible for.

Quick side story. I have my SID and can RNG. I choose not to RNG for IVs because I enjoy breeding the regular way, and I don't mind having good but not perfect Pokemon (just more fun that way for me). However, I have dabbled a bit in making things shiny (a total of twice, now). I was messing around and decided to make a Timid Shiny Misdreavus. I did the RNG process, got the egg locked, and then started resetting for good IVs. It only took me 2 resets to get IVs of 31/26/20/30/31/30. So in an hour or so, I had a completely useable shiny Misdreavus. Granted I didn't have the perfect Hidden Power since I didn't RNG its IVs, but it's just that easy for anyone to do something similar.

The game has made shinies easier to get, but it's depressing to see the same ones offered over and over again. No one even bothers to try and get another one, since something better has been RNG'd and cloned for all. The only shinies that I get that aren't cloned are either a) freshly RNG'd or b) sucky. That's the fact of it.

I mean, I hang out with a group of Pokemon fans at another forum. Every dozen or so pages, we talk about our incredibly bad luck of never finding shinies even during chaining. The fact is, most people don't RNG, or even attempt to chain that often or Masuda method enough for them. I honestly think it's a small portion of Pokemon players that do this.

Same for me, actually. I have not seen any random shinies, or shinies during chains in my 385+ hours on Diamond. I have hatched thousands of eggs, trained many Pokemon, even had some long chains, but nothing at all.

Don't see this as a problem because..well, look here. Most of SPPF are (no offense, d00ds) confused by the concept of EVs and IVs. The fact is there's a battling community for everyone, and you can easily find any type of battling if you look hard enough.

I know there are a lot of people out there that don't care about the intricacies of the game. My point is that in competitive battle circles, hacking is usually frowned upon. What RNG is doing though, is producing 'hack' quality Pokemon using a game mechanic. If I were to battle with an AR hacked standard team against one that was completely RNG'd, there wouldn't hardly be a difference. Obviously this kind of situation doesn't apply to the masses.

And if that's what people want then that's how it should be. But Jumpman and co from Smogon aren't hiring Yakuza to eliminate other forms of battling. I can still hop on PBR and face whatever gimmick team or overpowered ubers I feel like.

Again, a bit of a niche market I know. I should have been more clear about the perspective of my comments.

Trade forums are a cesspool anyway. I don't want to flame other Pokemon web sites, so I won't name names, but people seem to get very insular. IE if they only see Alamos Darkrais with a Quirky, Modest, and Jolly nature on whateverforums.com, then they'll all be going "HAXORS! Adamant Darkrai from ALAMOS isn't possible!" I've rarely had good experiences with trading in large websites. I've had much better deals on smaller sites.

You couldn't be more right. Most traders don't own anything of their own creation these days. They started out with a random shiny and maybe an AR, and now they have cloned and distributed enough things to have every event, shiny, legend, etc they could ever want. There are people like that on all boards.

 

[Tiomasta]

When something is put into a game people are going to find other uses for it. it doesn't make it cheating at all. When Gamefreak made these games they probably didn't think of half the strategies currently in use, does that make our competitive metagame cheating? No it doesn't. It is in the game, we are using it. It is not cheating by any definition.

You don't seem to know what you're talking about. I mean, the RNG was never supposed to be abused at all, PEOPLE WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO KNOW HOW THE RNG WORKS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

[Arande]

You don't seem to know what you're talking about. I mean, the RNG was never supposed to be abused at all, PEOPLE WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO KNOW HOW THE RNG WORKS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Got a question for you. WHO determined this? Did GameFreak say that? or did other players?

We've already discussed about how they said they add mechanics to be discovered, and it's been mentioned how they changed the 4th gen RNG to be player controllable, rather than constantly running like 3rd gen.

 

[randomspot555]

You don't seem to know what you're talking about. I mean, the RNG was never supposed to be abused at all, PEOPLE WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO KNOW HOW THE RNG WORKS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That exact same argument has been used for every single game mechanic. It's complete bull.

The producers of the games aren't idiots. They know full well exactly what they are doing when creating the systems for breeding, battling, etc...

In interviews, they said they put in these game mechanics so fans who are dedicated enough to say, the battling aspect of Pokemon, can get more out of it and discover it themselves. That's why they don't make them a core part of the 8 gyms + E4 main game, and only drop subtle hints, if any, in regards to the game mechanics.

 

[Hydrohs]

You don't seem to know what you're talking about. I mean, the RNG was never supposed to be abused at all, PEOPLE WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO KNOW HOW THE RNG WORKS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Arande and randomspot555 beat me to it, but again: The creators don't tell us anything really. Almost everything we currently do we have discovered ourselves. IVs, EVs, Everstone tricks etc. All of that was discovered by the players. RNG is just another discovery.

 

[gregjammer]

It's not hacking unless an external device like AR is involved, so no, rng abuse is not hacking...

 

[Amplify]

It's like using a database to know the EVs of a Starly or an IV calculator.



Except that hiding an ace on your sleeve while playing cards or making all your moves critical hits will help you win. RNG abusing is getting something legit but much faster. Once, thanks to the RNG abuse, I got a Shiny Charizard with 31 IVs in Special Attack and Modest nature. I could've got a Pokémon like that if I had bred it, but of course I'm not going to waste my time SRing over a million times just to get it. It won't affect the game, that Charizard can be obtained if you SR over a million times, and therefore, my rival has no right to blame me.

Seriously guys, I don't know why you're all so concerned about what's hacking and what's not. If I hack my game to get a Pokémon with legit stats and moves, why do you even care? I don't have any kind of advantage, and since I only want to fight I don't know why I have to catch/breed thousands of Pokémon just to get one I could get faster. The same with RNG abusing, although you still need to EV train that Pokémon.

But even then, RNG abusing can't be considered hacking. We all can do it, we're not using external devices and we're not making our Pokémon stronger (well, we are, but not stronger than possible). The only arguments here are that "you're not supposed to do it" and "it's hidden therefore it's hacking!". Well, are you supposed to SR? I don't think so. Are you supposed to breed your way to perfection? I don't think so. You could even argue if you're supposed to EV train. But does that mean that we can't do it? Of course not.

When you abuse the RNG you're just using maths to know how you can get a Pokémon faster. I don't know why anyone could possibly be against it.

THIS. For the love of god, this so hard.


the RNG method can be done by hand (done it by hand myself twice in fact), dosn't alter the game data in any way shape or form and the results arn't just "like" or "indentical to" what you would get without ever hearing of the RNG method, they ARE the same results.

Either The RNG method is not legitimate & neither is selective breeding, training for EVs, soft resetting or anything else and the only way to legitimately get pokemon is to use the FIRST one you catch or breed, or all that stuff is legitimate and so is the RNG method.


Really, I can't imagine how clueless somebody must be or what they are like in real life to think that it is "hacking" :/ It's nowhere near the right word, the game designers didn't intend for you to soft reset for eggs IVs or even EV train perfectly either. The closest you can really call it is taking advantage of how the game itself works, no "hacks" involved.


*edit*
I'll just quote the dictionary on the word "hacking", since there's a number of people in the thread (hi there Shadow Gamer) who seem to be confused over what the word even means.

hack 1 (hk)
v. hacked, hack·ing, hacks
v.tr.
1. To cut or chop with repeated and irregular blows: hacked down the saplings.
2. To break up the surface of (soil).
3.
a. Informal To alter (a computer program): hacked her text editor to read HTML.
b. To gain access to (a computer file or network) illegally or without authorization: hacked the firm's personnel database.
4. Slang To cut or mutilate as if by hacking: hacked millions off the budget.
5. Slang To cope with successfully; manage: couldn't hack a second job.

Are any computer programs altered? - NO (and I'm not talking about "altering" in the same way that I'm altering this post right now, if I could edit somebody else's post then I would be hacking because I'm not supposed to be able to do that, but it's well within how this forum works to allow me to edit my own post. Same thing with RNGing.)
Were any computers accessed without them being supposedly inaccesssible? - NO

English 101.

 

[cannibaleyes]

I feel the need to rant on this subject, because I've read forums on it and it's starting make my head spin... Or rather, the flawed thought process of the people involved in this debate is making my head spin.

I read a forum on Smogon where someone brought up a lot of (IMO) valid arguments... They said that they refuted them all, but I'd seriously like to know HOW. Granted, that forum was more debating over whether or not it is cheating, not hacking. I would have posted there, but the thread isn't open anymore.

Yes, I know that whatever I say will never get through the thick skulls of elitists who are too smart to see the simple logic ad common sense of perfectly valid arguments, but I can at least try.

My main argument is that a RANDOM number generator is SUPPOSED to be random. And before you start, yes, I know that it is impossible to program one that actually is random. But that is exactly my point. It is impossible to program one that is random, therefore, programmers can only make them very complex, so that they appear to be random. If programmers intended for players to get exactly what they wanted every time, then they wouldn't have even bothered with a complex RNG system. The PRNG is there so that getting exactly what you want isn't guaranteed, and getting the desired results depends on a bit of luck.

Of course there are going to be hardcore people that crack the programming. The programmers know there are people like that out there. But there's not a lot that they can do about it, because the nature of programming is that any program can theoretically be cracked. However, programmers expect that a majority of people are not crazy enough to attempt to do this.

By manipulating the RNG to land on a known value, it removes the random element of it. Sure, it was never random in the first place, but if you wouldn't have calculated coin flips/spreads/timings, etc., it would at least seem more random because the average player would not know what was going to happen.

So, although it isn't directly altering the code by forcing it to do things that it wouldn't normally do, it's still cheating because you are altering it in the sense that you are making sure the code is exactly the way you want it, when it was intended to seem as random as possible.

Sorry, I just fail to understand how people can honestly argue that exploiting a RANDOM number generator to make it not random is how the game was intended to be played. "But it's not actually random at all, so it was meant to be exploited" is an invalid argument. It's IMPOSSIBLE to make it random. If they could make it random, then they would. But they can't, so they can only do the next best thing and make it as seemingly random as possible.

It's kind of like glitches, I suppose. Granted, glitches are like mistakes that weren't meant to be in the programming, so they are a little different. Like the cloning glitch in Emerald, for example. It's there, it's easy to exploit, but I doubt that it was intentionally meant to be exploited.

So.... In conclusion, my opinion is that it's not REALLY hacking, but it's exploiting the game in a way that it was never meant to be exploited. That being said, I don't see anything wrong with RNG exploiting, or exploiting glitches such as the cloning glitch. It just bothers me when people act like "Oh, I'm not doing anything wrong, the programming was just there, begging to be cracked.. It's part of how the game's supposed to work!" because that is BS, for lack of a better term. Sure, it's how the game works, but it wasn't written so that people could crack it and exploit it.

And to the people that argue : "SRing, IVs, EVs, breeding, etc. is doing the same thing because we wouldn't have known any of that without the help of computer nerds either! It's the same!" Yes, it is. Just to a slightly lesser extent because most of these things (IVs, EVS) are somewhat hinted to in-game. Which implies that the programmers did intend that some gamers would figure it out.

So, in conclusion to the conclusion...
RNG exploiting is cheating, just like the cloning glitch in Emerald is cheating, just like SRing is exploiting the game in a way that wasn't intended (yes, I know I'm stretching this one for most people... Bear with me here). But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't and won't be done. I don't care if people RNG exploit; they are going to do it regardless of what anyone says. But get off your high horse and admit that you're a hardcore nerd for doing so.

And for the record, I would RNG exploit myself, but the RNG Reporter program thing doesn't work on Macs, and I'm not crazy enough to do all the math by hand.

 

[Tyrannotaur]

In my personal opinion RNG Abuse is hacking. Yes you are not using Pokesav (for the most part, just for the secret ID) or a AR. You are basically forcing the RNG to work in your favor and skipping all the steps you normally would take. The developers never intended to have people discover this. You really are basically going against what the game would have you do normally and is thus hacking. Not hacking in the sense that you are going into the game and changing things around to gain an advantage, more in the sense that you are abusing something in the game to get a result you want. Much like glitch abuse.
I don't think its terrible or a dirty tactic, I just think it takes the fun out of the game. Sure I breed for natures and stuff but I've never had the patience to care for IVs. If that means I have a huge losing streak then OH WELL. I don't play these games to grind others into dust with my "Awesome Skillz" or my ability to "PWN NOOBS", I play because I enjoy the games, However if you enjoy abusing the RNG or breeding for perfect IVs then go right ahead. If others want to make the perfect pokemon then let them. I just think it kinda ruins the fun of the game. Also kinda gives actual Pokesav hackers the excuse to do what they do. Whenever I fight a whole team of shines I always think of the person as a hacker. Now if the person actually is a hacker and not a RNG abuser, they can use the excuse that "I'm not a hacker! I RNG abuse!" I can see alot of arguments similar to that happening. Not to mention this basically makes Shiny pokemon pointless.

And No EV training isn't the same thing. EV training is something advanced players where meant to use. The Macho Brace, Power Items, Pokerus, and other things the developers gave us prove this. Plus it mentions it in my players guides.

BTW is RNG abuse even possible in HG/SS since the Poketch isnt present?

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

A Worthwhile Insight

Sorry, I just fail to understand how people can honestly argue that exploiting a RANDOM number generator to make it not random is how the game was intended to be played. "But it's not actually random at all, so it was meant to be exploited" is an invalid argument. It's IMPOSSIBLE to make it random. If they could make it random, then they would. But they can't, so they can only do the next best thing and make it as seemingly random as possible.

Thank you very much for this insightful post! (I quoted the portion that most impressed me.) This is exactly the point that escapes so many people. How did the RNG manipulators conclude that this was indeed something that the game designers intended us to figure out? Everything I have seen indicates that they simply assumed this was just like all the other game mechanics. But it's not. But the RNG is more than just a game mechanic. With suficient knowledge, you could predict every interaction. Why should it stop at just breeding perfect shiny Pokemon?

I think most people would agree that this is not fair. I stand by my original statement that RNG manipulation is almost entirely unfair.

 

[randomspot555]

My main argument is that a RANDOM number generator is SUPPOSED to be random. And before you start, yes, I know that it is impossible to program one that actually is random. But that is exactly my point. It is impossible to program one that is random, therefore, programmers can only make them very complex, so that they appear to be random. If programmers intended for players to get exactly what they wanted every time, then they wouldn't have even bothered with a complex RNG system. The PRNG is there so that getting exactly what you want isn't guaranteed, and getting the desired results depends on a bit of luck.

Of course there are going to be hardcore people that crack the programming. The programmers know there are people like that out there. But there's not a lot that they can do about it, because the nature of programming is that any program can theoretically be cracked. However, programmers expect that a majority of people are not crazy enough to attempt to do this.

By manipulating the RNG to land on a known value, it removes the random element of it. Sure, it was never random in the first place, but if you wouldn't have calculated coin flips/spreads/timings, etc., it would at least seem more random because the average player would not know what was going to happen.

So, although it isn't directly altering the code by forcing it to do things that it wouldn't normally do, it's still cheating because you are altering it in the sense that you are making sure the code is exactly the way you want it, when it was intended to seem as random as possible.

Sorry, I just fail to understand how people can honestly argue that exploiting a RANDOM number generator to make it not random is how the game was intended to be played. "But it's not actually random at all, so it was meant to be exploited" is an invalid argument. It's IMPOSSIBLE to make it random. If they could make it random, then they would. But they can't, so they can only do the next best thing and make it as seemingly random as possible.

The same argument of "they didn't make this intentionally so that fans can abuse it" has been said about every single game mechanic.

The programers of the game knew full well exactly what they are doing when designing every game mechanic. If they didn't want any of them to be used, they shouldn't have put them in. In fact, in interviews, they've said they intentionally put these mechanics in and let fans who like battling a lot discover it for themselves.

And to the people that argue : "SRing, IVs, EVs, breeding, etc. is doing the same thing because we wouldn't have known any of that without the help of computer nerds either! It's the same!" Yes, it is. Just to a slightly lesser extent because most of these things (IVs, EVS) are somewhat hinted to in-game. Which implies that the programmers did intend that some gamers would figure it out.

Except in earlier gens, where many of these mechanics (or at least similar predecessors) were there and not hinted at. I don't think the programmers at Game Freak are idiots. They know game codes can be read, and they also know that most game mechanics aren't necessary for the core game. Let fans figure it out for themselves for those who want to do so.

As far as I see it RNG Abuse is hacking.

Except it isn't.

Yes you are not using Pokesav (for the most part, just for the secret ID) or a AR.

You can determine your SID without hacking.

I also like how you stereotype some fans as "not having fun." Just because YOU don't like advance game mechanics doesn't mean those who do use them aren't having fun.