RNG abusing, Hacking or not?

[ArchedThunder]

No idea how you do it, but if its not a glitch, its hacking, editing a game's code is hacking.

 

[Hydrohs]

You're wrong.

To be fair his opinion can't be wrong, however misguided it may be.

No idea how you do it, but if its not a glitch, its hacking, editing a game's code is hacking.

It's neither. Gamefreak put it in on purpose and it always functions exactly as it should. There is no editing of the games code.

 

[Noctourniquet]

No idea how you do it, but if its not a glitch, its hacking, editing a game's code is hacking.

The mechanic that the game relies on to make pretty much all of its decisions is not a Glitch. And it does not alter the coding of the game, so it is not hacking either. It is a legit method of obtaining Pokémon for the people who don't want to breed but do have an understanding of a complex mechanic. It's simply showing knowledge in an alternative aspect of the game. Is there anything so wrong with that?

 

[Emerald 2006]

I'm still undecided on it, but it sounds like hacking to me.

 

[Noctourniquet]

^ I've said it before and I'll say it again, it is in no way hacking. There is no external device and there is no alteration to the game's coding.

 

[Bulldogs]

This thread is going no where. You are not altering anything or using an external device to manipulate the game's code. The RNG works exactly as intended. It's not a glitch or a bug. It's perfectly possible to get near flawless Pokemon without RNG abusing. It relies on the same mechanic. If RNG is "unfair" because GF didn't intend for us to do this, then IVs and EVs can follow that same logic. Stop coming up with terrible analogies that are lopsided towards your argument and don't fairly portray RNG abuse.

I wasn't directing that at anyone. I just wanted to cover most of the arguments I've seen while skimming this thread.

 

[Tiomasta]

I knew what you were saying. What you just said is the same thing people have tried to say about any "hidden" mechanic" people used that same reasoning for EV's and such. How many people pay heed to those that still bring up that argument against EV training?

Same exact line of thought has been said about breeding and EV training and almost every other game mechanic.

IVs and EVs were hinted, if not said, in all games.
Not to mention the site and the official guides, but I have no idea if they mention those there or not.

The RNG was never mentioned or anything, ever. Much less about that way to be able to manipulate the RNG.

There's a lot of difference.

Even then, It still runs as intended, the exact same way, whether you are aware of it, or ignorant. (in the early days of D/P, how many times did you see people question if it's hacking that machamp punched their flying/invisible/buried pokes?)

And it takes at least 10-15 minutes to RNG a single poke, minimum as in, assuming you get it right at first which is pretty hard. It involves getting the time between resetting the game, and selecting "continue" to be on the exact 1/60th of a second you need. Plus time to set the clock, and reset it each time you mess up. Even after practicing, that's still a pain to do. Then you have to perform the actions to advance the RNG. Dunno where you get "they enter numbers and bam, 30 second perfect shinies"

How much time does it take to get a perfect-like poke using the normal way? Days? Weeks? Maybe a month?
It's ridiculously faster than the normal way/what it's supposed to be like, this is what I mean.

Last thing. What you said about peoples opinions about AR is a little flawed. One reason creating "legit" teams using an AR is still considered hacking is because Nintendo themselves have specifically said you should not use 3rd party devices, that you should only put Nintendo games and products into your systems. What with the voided warranty, and hack flags and all that other stuff they have in the user manual. There has been no hard written statement from Nintendo or GF about their stance on RNG. (Or if there is, show me.)

I didn't say "legit", it's just that the person does not consider it cheating, period. It obviously is hacking in whatever way you look at it, but the person does not consider it cheating. Cheating, not hacking.

You clearly can not tell what someone intends without them telling you. You can only guess.

So that means my "guess" is invalid, and no one can say anything about that topic because it is "impossible" to know.

It's not an error. If it was an error they would have corrected it 4 years ago with D/P's release, they didn't, nor for Platinum. Either Gamefreak lives under a rock, or they don't understand how their own code works. I don't think either of those are likely.

Oh, suuure, they would love to spend so much time creating an entirely new RNG system for Platinum, which would not interfere with any sort of connection with D/P, of course... >_>

Cheating is purely subjective. However, the subject isn't "RNG Abuse, cheating or not?" but "hacking or not." And because many people are drawing parallels to RNG abuse in either saying it is hacking or it's "like" hacking, they are flat out wrong/

It should be obvious that RNG is not hacking, but my point is, just because it isn't hacking does not mean it isn't cheating in any way and that RNG'd pokes are totally legit and cheat-less. RNG is not hacking, just cheating.

In fact, you do.

Sure, if I lacked, like, common sense.

It's stil la case of Life Isn't Fair. "WAH ITS NOT FAIR". Well, guess what, you can use the RNG to your advantage too. If you don't, that's fine. You're putting yourself at a disadvantage, but your choice.

Correct. Just don't talk as if it weren't even close to any kind of cheating.

This is a Pokemon forum in a Pokemon specific sub-forum talking about a Pokemon game mechanic. How else was I suppose to interpert it as?

Hm, guess you're right, "any other" doesn't say that much.
No sarcasm here.

And your point? These affect how people battle exactly none.

Why does it have to do with multiplayer battles to be considered cheating in any way, in the first place?

If someone is interested in Pokemon, they already own a DS and the proper game.

And...? How does that have anything to do with those cheating devices you said?

Either way, I don't know why you leep trying to draw a parralel to cheating devices and RNG, because it's not the same, not even close.

If you think I mean cheating devices is like RNG for hacking, then that's not what I mean. I mean that it's like RNG for cheating.

It's neither. Gamefreak put it in on purpose and it always functions exactly as it should. There is no editing of the games code.

The RNG works exactly as intended.

It generates those numbers okay, like how they wanted it to, but it wasn't intended for it to be able to be exploited/abused like that.

 

[Hydrohs]

So that means my "guess" is invalid, and no one can say anything about that topic because it is "impossible" to know.

No, it means your guess is a guess and you can not state it as absolute.

Oh, suuure, they would love to spend so much time creating an entirely new RNG system for Platinum, which would not interfere with any sort of connection with D/P, of course... >_>

They did it with Emerald. Ruby and Sapphire have different RNGs, could have done it with Platinum. And if you really want to use that point then explain why the didn't change in D/P, they could have done it then as well.

It generates those numbers okay, like how they wanted it to, but it wasn't intended for it to be able to be exploited/abused like that.

You have no idea what they intended, as we've been saying.

 

[arceus7]

my god first of all /

the rng does EVERYTHING for the game. it determines if a pokemon is holding an item if your move will hit or miss if u will get a status problem ecetera. simply THE GAME DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT THE FREAKING RNG. You just use it using a complex process with out altering any code or using an external device that alters code like gameshark or action replay. frankly its just how the system works and you can exploit it without even knowing and get what you want anyway it just happened without your knowledge.

IVs/evs were not hinted, we got told this OUTRIGHT.

 

[Arande]

How much time does it take to get a perfect-like poke using the normal way? Days? Weeks? Maybe a month?
It's ridiculously faster than the normal way/what it's supposed to be like, this is what I mean.

I didn't say "legit", it's just that the person does not consider it cheating, period. It obviously is hacking in whatever way you look at it, but the person does not consider it cheating. Cheating, not hacking.

So that means my "guess" is invalid, and no one can say anything about that topic because it is "impossible" to know.

It generates those numbers okay, like how they wanted it to, but it wasn't intended for it to be able to be exploited/abused like that.

My point was that what a player thinks is completely irrelevant. Nintendo has said you should not use an AR, therefore it is cheating/hacking/whatever to use it. Because Nintendo has said, and you agree to it, whether you are aware of it or not, for using your DS (NINTENDO DSi SERVICES USER AGREEMENT: This agreement is between you and Nintendo and covers use of the Nintendo DSi Service and the Nintendo DSi System. Nintendo may also be referred to as "we" or "us."). There are no such hard written rules about manipulating in game mechanics, so no one can really say any "should be" "intended" etc.

In order for something to be "cheating" a rule has to be broken.

To be blunt, you are another player. You have no authority to tell other players how they should play their game, or what "should be' "intended" etc. Only those two (Nintendo and GF).

Your personal opinions do not make facts. You may think it is cheating, but that does not mean it is.

 

[randomspot555]

IVs and EVs were hinted, if not said, in all games.

Haha, that's funny.

The hints they give are just hints, they're very vague, and for the most part, only make sense until AFTER you know about it. The Effort Ribbon? You get it for raising your Pokemon exceptionally well. That's what it is to the average Pokemon player. But we know it's because all EVs have been distributed.

Not to mention there are tons of other game mechanics, regularly used, that are NEVER mentioned in the games. Everstone passing down nature? Not even hinted at. Same as the Masuda shiny breeding method, or egg groups, or flame body hatching eggs faster, all the stuff Defog ACTUALLY does when used in battle, etc...

Not to mention the site and the official guides, but I have no idea if they mention those there or not.

According to some, the Plat guide has been somewhat specific about EVs, and mentioned Everstone-nature breeding. Still, it's only a fraction of the game mechanics that are "generally" accepted but rarely if ever mentioned in the games.

How much time does it take to get a perfect-like poke using the normal way? Days? Weeks? Maybe a month?
It's ridiculously faster than the normal way/what it's supposed to be like, this is what I mean.

So what? Some might get it in a week, some might get it in a year. If you wanted a fair game, play something where X action + Y action=Z result. That game, however, isn't Pokemon, because there's so many little things that can throw off an equation.

My point was that what a player thinks is completely irrelevant. Nintendo has said you should not use an AR, therefore it is cheating/hacking/whatever to use it. Because Nintendo has said, and you agree to it, whether you are aware of it or not, for using your DS (NINTENDO DSi SERVICES USER AGREEMENT: This agreement is between you and Nintendo and covers use of the Nintendo DSi Service and the Nintendo DSi System. Nintendo may also be referred to as "we" or "us."). There are no such hard written rules about manipulating in game mechanics, so no one can really say any "should be" "intended" etc.

In order for something to be "cheating" a rule has to be broken.

To be blunt, you are another player. You have no authority to tell other players how they should play their game, or what "should be' "intended" etc. Only those two (Nintendo and GF).

Your personal opinions do not make facts. You may think it is cheating, but that does not mean it is.

This x1000. And it's not just AR because Nintendo is anti-cheat, they don't want you using any unlicensed third party products. If you use a SCREEN PROTECTOR that isn't licensed by Nintendo, it voids the warranty too. It probably has something to do that, back in the day, game help hotlines were all the rage.

 

[Sweet Pinpuku]

I searched the thread and could not find this at all (sorry if I missed it).

I have a question about the RNG thing - can doing it or having a Pokémon obtained in this manner (the one I have is a shiny Sentret hatched from an Egg which I received in trade) cause your game to corrupt in any way?

 

[Hydrohs]

I searched the thread and could not find this at all (sorry if I missed it).

I have a question about the RNG thing - can doing it or having a Pokémon obtained in this manner (the one I have is a shiny Sentret hatched from an Egg which I received in trade) cause your game to corrupt in any way?

No that's impossible. You get Pokemon exactly the same way as normal. The chance of your game becoming corrupted is the exact same as if you caught a Pokemon without being aware of how the RNG works.

 

[Sweet Pinpuku]

No that's impossible. You get Pokemon exactly the same way as normal. The chance of your game becoming corrupted is the exact same as if you caught a Pokemon without being aware of how the RNG works.

So, basically, the Sentret I received in this manner won't corruptmy game? Cool cool, thanx x

If that is the case, then I'd have to say that it does not count as hacking or even cheating because, if memory serves, Nintendo put in the whole corruption thing as a safeguard or something to prevent/punish people cheating and, if this doesn't corrupt your game or anything (ie, Nintendo have placed no safeguards against it) then, imo, it doesn't count as hacking.

EDIT ~ oh, wait, if in a tournament that required your Pokémon to go through that hack-check thing, if they knew the Pokémon had been obtained in this way would they disallow you to use it?

 

[Hydrohs]

So, basically, the Sentret I received in this manner won't corruptmy game? Cool cool, thanx x

If that is the case, then I'd have to say that it does not count as hacking or even cheating because, if memory serves, Nintendo put in the whole corruption thing as a safeguard or something to prevent/punish people cheating and, if this doesn't corrupt your game or anything (ie, Nintendo have placed no safeguards against it) then, imo, it doesn't count as hacking.

Corrupting isn't something Nintendo put in. Corrupting happens when the game does something it's not supposed to, it doesn't understand so it breaks. It's the same with any kind of code, it can happen to your Windows installation, for example.

 

[randomspot555]

So, basically, the Sentret I received in this manner won't corruptmy game? Cool cool, thanx x

If that is the case, then I'd have to say that it does not count as hacking or even cheating because, if memory serves, Nintendo put in the whole corruption thing as a safeguard or something to prevent/punish people cheating and, if this doesn't corrupt your game or anything (ie, Nintendo have placed no safeguards against it) then, imo, it doesn't count as hacking.

EDIT ~ oh, wait, if in a tournament that required your Pokémon to go through that hack-check thing, if they knew the Pokémon had been obtained in this way would they disallow you to use it?

Your game has had ZERO interference with external devices. Your game has the same chance as being corrupted at any time, pretty close to zero.

 

[Noctourniquet]

EDIT ~ oh, wait, if in a tournament that required your Pokémon to go through that hack-check thing, if they knew the Pokémon had been obtained in this way would they disallow you to use it?

IMO, they should not disallow the Pokémon's use because it is not hacked in any way. However, the tournament organiser may see it differently. It's a risk, but you should get away with it. Besides, with time, Breeding will obtain the same results as RNG and if they think that Breeding = Hacking, then they should not be part of a tourney.

 

[randomspot555]

IMO, they should not disallow the Pokémon's use because it is not hacked in any way. However, the tournament organiser may see it differently. It's a risk, but you should get away with it. Besides, with time, Breeding will obtain the same results as RNG and if they think that Breeding = Hacking, then they should not be part of a tourney.

RNG Pokemon are 100% legit, so no one should ever be kicked for that. However, VCG rules have a clause sayig that judges can pretty much kick anyone at any time with or without reason.

 

[Arande]

Well at leased some of the Pokemon used in the WCS were caught/hatched with the RNG and Nintendo allowed them.

They didn't stop them last time. Then again you are always subject to the rules of the tournament if you enter.

Though, the problem they'd run into is how do you tell what's RNG'd and what just happened to be very good randomly? (IE: I have 2 shiny good natured pokes with max sp att, one has 31 speed, other has a 25, rest are also good,, save attack that's not used. Neither were RNG'd) Or someone that did SR for that HP grass heatram.

Heh, "World championship, where people come to prove they are the best, btw good pokes are banned" XD

 

[Tiomasta]

No, it means your guess is a guess and you can not state it as absolute.

But that also does not mean that it is incorrect, in which case it can't be simply ignored or discarded without reason.

They did it with Emerald. Ruby and Sapphire have different RNGs, could have done it with Platinum. And if you really want to use that point then explain why the didn't change in D/P, they could have done it then as well.

Lotsa other gameplay stuff were put along in Emerald.

What did they change in Platinum, gameplay-wise? Nothing?

My point was that what a player thinks is completely irrelevant.

For tournaments and stuff?
Then of course. If a player sees some tournament that has some rules that the player does not agree(pokes obtained with way X are allowed or not, etc), then the player simply does not go to that tournament.

If the player is like, gonna battle with someone else on just a normal match outside any tournament and stuff, then they set their own rules. If the rules aren't agreed by both players, then they don't battle.

Your personal opinions do not make facts. You may think it is cheating, but that does not mean it is.

If I say that something is cheating, what does it mean?
That it is cheating in my opinion and point of view.
If I say that something is not cheating, what does it mean?
That it is not cheating in my opinion and point of view.

"Cheating" changes from player to player.

I say it's cheating, you say it's not. That means that we have different opinions, simple as that.

Your game has had ZERO interference with external devices. Your game has the same chance as being corrupted at any time, pretty close to zero.

I hope you mean only the newest games. Missingno anyone?