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RU Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in '6th Gen' started by Ragnarok, Jan 8, 2015.

  1. Ragnarok

    Ragnarok #BeastMode Staff Member Super Mod

    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
  2. Psynergy

    Psynergy Strong Winds Staff Member Super Mod

    So I hadn't played RU much since Sharpedo moved up to UU rendering all my teams unusable (I'd planned to switch to LO once the Mega was banned rip). Figured it was a good time to give it a shot now that Contrary Serperior is out and it didn't take more than a few battles to see how metagame defining it is. Unless you have a really strong resist to it (usually x4 resist) you will have trouble against Serperior.

    The first team I tried running with carries Pidgeot but unless it's previously Mega Evolved Serperior easily wins, which goes to show that Serperior really doesn't care that much about its lacking coverage options when Leaf Storm alone mows down a lot of the competition. This battle I had also highlights the fact that while Serperior can be beaten, having to gradually wear it down with its own recoil if you don't have specific answers is borderline unhealthy. For reference:

    252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 164-192 (56.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Had Leaf Storm not missed against Rhyperior, Serperior could have easily swept my opponent's whole team.

    On a side note in case anyone was wondering:

    252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 199-234 (82.2 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    In the midst of Serperior's terrifying wallbreaking though, I've been meaning to try out Belly Drum Slurpuff now that gains Drain Punch. Has anyone tried it yet?
     
  3. Mye

    Mye Someone has to win..

    I have, and with a salac berry and unburden it actually becomes pretty damn dangerous. It's by no means perfect (it dies to most non-sucker punch reliant priority users in the tier), but it's slowly becoming one of my favorite things to use. Also, I can't wait until reckless emboar comes out. Minus alomomola, rhyperior, and the bulkiest of eviolite users, it can comfortably OHKO/2HKO more than half the tier with flare blitz and head smash alone.
     
  4. Ace Trainer Riana

    Ace Trainer Riana Well-Known Member

    That Emboar wasn't running Sucker Punch which did make a difference.
     
  5. Psynergy

    Psynergy Strong Winds Staff Member Super Mod

    It wouldn't have made a big difference in the long run, he still would've had to lose Emboar and then Sucker Punch to KO with Shiftry. But that doesn't detract from my point and what he could have done doesn't really matter. Point is that Serperior is scary in RU and not preparing for it is bad. It's arguably the scariest wallbreaker there at the moment and for good reason. Having 113 base Speed in a tier like RU makes it that much more difficult to deal with offensively, and even defensively there's only so few things that can stop it every time. Personally I don't expect it to last long before moving up but eh.
     
  6. Mye

    Mye Someone has to win..

    Yeah, the problem with that is the fact that it doesn't get any easier up top. While it could essentially K/O half the defensive cores in UU (as many are part water types), there are a bunch of offensive pokemon (crobat) who could predict a leaf storm and destroy it. OU is no different, as plenty of cores (by accident) can wall serperior even at +2, and everyone carries at least one pokemon with para.
     
  7. Psynergy

    Psynergy Strong Winds Staff Member Super Mod

    So RU is going underway with its first suspect since I believe Yanmega and Zoroark. Serperior, Dragalge and Mega Pidgeot are the suspects this time around, the first two for their amazing wallbreaking ability (and sweeping in Serperior's case) and the third for giving offense teams a difficult time while being able to U-turn out against its more passive checks.

    I've already said before that I think Serperior should leave. Despite having a counter in Golbat it's got a lot of flexibility with Knock Off, Glare and Giga Drain to deal with would-be counters, and in general it has a really easy time sweeping when it has a STAB 130 Base Power Nasty Plot.

    Not too sure on what I think about the other two but I think everything being suspected has a chance of being banned from RU.
     
  8. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    I'm kind of torn on Dragalge. On one hand, it's arguably the hardest thing to switch into in the tier due to the raw power of its Specs set with Adaptability factored in. Only the bulkiest of steel types such as specially defensive Registeel and Bronzong dare to switch into it, and both can be worn down due to a lack of reliable recovery. The sheer ease of 1HKO'ing and 2HKO'ing the entire tier is ridiculous; even things like Cresselia and Alomomola have to be wary of its raw power. It's also not particularly frail either, since 65/90/123 bulk is pretty respectable, and its typing has merits as well. Being one of the few dragon types neutral to Fairy and who can in turn crap on any fairy is a nice aspect, and of course it resists the FWG core, in addition to things like Fighting, Bug, and Electric. On the other hand, its speed holds it back considerably. With a pitiful base 44 speed tier, while it can 2HKO most of the tier, it usually has to eat an attack from anything that it doesn't 1HKO, and many things can check it pretty easily as well. Much like Aegislash, that speed makes it sort of a gray area; while it undeniably has power and bulk, that low speed prevents it from sweeping entire teams itself. It's not like Greninja whose speed required more specialized checks (i.e., Scarfers and priority); Dragalge sits pretty low in the RU speed tiers. That said, it can break down walls like nobody's business, making it very easy for a faster Pokemon to clean up after it. I would not be surprised if it got banned, but I'm also not 100% sure that it NEEDS to be banned. I'd lean more towards pro-ban than no-ban, though.
     
  9. Ace Trainer Riana

    Ace Trainer Riana Well-Known Member

    Unlike Aegislash, Dragalge doesn't have priority. I don't think that Serperior or Pidgeot would stay in RU after tier shifts so testing them seems like wanting to get rid of them early.
     
  10. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Which has nothing to do with anything.

    Which also has no relevancy upon a suspect test. Tier shifts occur based on usage; Suspect tests occur because Pokemon are deemed to have an unhealthy effect upon the metagame of the tier they're in. As a result, since suspect tests require a vote, it's more opinion based, while since tier shifts are based on usage and usage alone it's more of a statistical measure that determines their ascension. Plus, the end result of where they end up would be different; a suspect test would send them to BL2, while a Tier shift would move them up to UU (or higher as was the case with Lopunny and Gallade, but of the three being suspected right now I can't see them jumping up to OU in the next tier shift).
     
  11. phanpycross

    phanpycross God-king

    Cool thread, Im really digging RU as a tier. It's really nice and varied, with the minimum ammount of BS in my opinion.

    About the suspects, I love using dragalge, but it's just so darn strong. It breaks pretty much everything in the tier, and the things it doesnt are easy to wear down. Serperior is more interesting as it has way more switchins, but it's large support movepool makes it just as dangerous, with glare and knock off both being quite annoying. It's 113 speed is also insanely good. Mega burd isnt really that bad, it's annoying as hell, sure, but the things beating it can usually be used for stuff other than beating it. Without any personal bias, I would ban Dragalge and serperior, and not ban Mega pidgeot.
     
  12. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Mega Pidgeot's kind of an interesting case. It might not have the raw power of Dragalge or the stupidly good boosting abilities of Serperior, but it's definitely more annoying. Flying STAB is very spammable in Gen 6, and when you're talking about a perfectly accurate base 110 power flying STAB with zero drawbacks, you're hard pressed to want to switch into it. It hits a considerable portion of the tier at least neutrally, and much like Scald, its side effect with its respectable 30% chance of occurring means that even resists can get screwed on the switch if they suddenly find themselves confused. Plus, its base 121 speed tier outspeeds the entire unboosted tier sans Jolteon, so even if you get a check or even a counter in on it, it can quickly U-Turn out, which, after having the check/counter get confused by Hurricane on the switch, can hugely grab the momentum and force another switch for them.

    Even so, its bulk is only average at best, and prior to mega evolving that bulk is even worse. Stealth Rock also helps limit the number of times it can switch in, although Roost does help offset this as well. It's also very predictable due to its shallow movepool (why no Focus Blast, Game Freak?) In addition, despite a great base 135 special attack, the lack of being able to hold an item means its damage output might not be as good as you'd like. To emphasize, Mega Pidgeot's Hurricane is actually outdamaged by Serperior's unboosted Life Orb Leaf Storm.

    252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 94-112 (14.6 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 99-117 (15.4 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO

    (Arbitrary target is arbitrary)

    Do I think it deserves a ban? Maybe not. Do I think it's annoying as hell? Definitely so.
     
  13. Psynergy

    Psynergy Strong Winds Staff Member Super Mod

    I've put in a lot more time recently into seeing what I think about the three, and I still think the same thing about Serperior. There are definitely ways to beat it and it doesn't always pull off a sweep, but Serperior is a wallbreaker before it's a sweeper. If the only thing it does is take down a SpDef Registeel or SpDef Bronzong (which isn't impossible) then I think it's still done a good job. And of course, the last slot is very flexible so whether it runs Knock Off, Glare or Giga Drain, it's got a way to deal with its checks.

    I don't think I can accurately judge Dragalge since I've been running an offense team that lacks switches into a lot of things and not just Dragalge, but it definitely puts massive strain on its safest switches considering Registeel and Bronzong lack reliable recovery. I'd be more for a ban on Dragalge than no ban, though.

    I wasn't so sure about Mega Pidgeot before but I'm definitely for a ban on it. It puts incredible pressure on offense teams since you basically need to run Jolteon or specific Scarf users to outspeed it and KO it (at which point you simply sacrifice something and then Mega Pidgeot can just switch out and come back later again). Rhyperior and AV Eelektross also work but HP Grass can cripple the former and the latter can be worn down over time. And of course nothing is stopping Mega Pidgeot from simply U-turning out. It might not be immediately broken but I do think it's not a particularly healthy presence in RU.
     
  14. Mye

    Mye Someone has to win..

    See, for me mega-pidgeot is a very "hit or miss" pokemon. While it does have access to a bunch of powerful attacking options, it has three massive problems that for me at least make it RU-usable but not RU-bannable. You guys touched on the first two, in that it has crappy defenses and a middling movepool (which also lacks a reliable normal-type special STAB option, should it wish to hit things like Lanturn for decent damage). Another big problem for me is its ability "No Guard". While having 100% accuracy on its moves can be good at times, it's also a giant hinderance considering many pokemon run shaky-accuracy coverage moves that can oftentimes outright kill pidgeot (things like focus blast, stone edge, and to a lesser extent thunder and blizzard). In addition to this, No Guard also opens up a plethoria of revenge-killing and status-crippling possibilities that without it, wouldn't hit as much because of it (grass types like amoongus can nail it with stun spore should it switch in) forcing people to often run a cleric/wish passer with mega-pidgeot which can sometimes make teams revolving around it rather predictable. Dragalge and Serperior can go, even though they'll probably be obliterated in UU (dragalge especially, since everything runs EQ in that tier) but the idea of banning an under-600BST mega who can either be crippled or OHKO'd by half the tier for me makes no sense.
     
  15. RhyQuinn

    RhyQuinn Member

    I 100% agree with this. M-Pidgeot is a threat, no doubt about it. But enough of a threat to warrant a ban from RU? I don't think so. Especially with things like Rhyperior running around who can OHKO with a guaranteed-to-hit Stone Edge. Even things like SpDef Alomomola is 3HKO'd by Modest Hurricane after Leftovers.

    252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 231-273 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    I think there are enough things to wall/cripple M-Pidgeot that it shouldn't move from RU. It'll be a top tier threat in RU, but it should stay that way.

    With regard to Dragalge, I could see it getting moved to UU. It will get destroyed in UU, but I think it's too good for RU with the insane amounts of power it has. With the rise of the Steel type in 6th Gen, there aren't that many good ones left in the lower tiers. Even those that are still there, not many of them can take a Choice Specs Adaptability Draco Meteor. Cobalion is 2HKO'd, even after the -2 SpA drop. There are a couple though, those being Bronzong, Eviolite Doublade among others. However, considering that those are pretty much exclusively the only things that can wall it, it should move up to UU. Try the new One vs All feature on the updated Damage Calculator and just observe how many things it OHKOs with Draco Meteor. It's absolutely ridiculous.

    Serperior is a threat. My goodness this guy is good. Without a doubt I think he should be UU. Even mons that supposedly wall it like Bronzong get destroyed with a +2 HP Fire, so no switch ins for it at all. Heatran walls. And Unaware Clefable. That's about it. Without a shadow of a doubt, this guy should be UU.
     
  16. Froggy DC

    Froggy DC Member

    What's a good Jolteon look like?
     
  17. Psynergy

    Psynergy Strong Winds Staff Member Super Mod

    A typical Jolteon looks something like this:

    Jolteon @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Signal Beam / Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power Water/Grass/Ice
    - Volt Switch

    Thunderbolt is standard STAB, and Volt Switch allows it to gain momentum. Hidden Power is variable though Ice is arguably the best right now for hitting Mega Sceptile. Signal Beam is more coverage since Jolteon lacks many options but it hits the omnipresent Psychic types like Cresselia, as well as Serperior until that gets banned. Meanwhile Shadow Ball also hits Psychic types but also hits Bronzong harder than Signal Beam does and is generally better neutral coverage than Bug.

    SubPass Jolteon is also a thing though I'm not seeing a lot of that lately so I'm not sure how good it is right now.
     
  18. phanpycross

    phanpycross God-king

    I dont really get the srgument for no guard being such a bad thing tbh, staying in on moves like stone edge is asking RNG for a 30% chance to not lose your mon, which is absolutely terrible odds, which should never be done. I also have yet to see anybody run blizzard outisde of matbe Rotom-frost, which pidgeot prolly shouldnt stay in on either. Machamp having no guard might be an issue becuase it has 55 speed which is awful, unlike pidgeot's 121 speed, which is the highest outside scarfers, mega sceptile, and jolteon. Flying being a great mono-STAB also means it can easily find room for other neat moves like refresh, roost, U-turn, Substitute, and work-up.
     
  19. Psynergy

    Psynergy Strong Winds Staff Member Super Mod

    So RU unsurprisingly banned all three of Serperior, Dragalge and Mega Pidgeot with a supermajority. 90 Ban/27 DNB for Pidgeotite (76.92%), 91 Ban/24 DNB for Dragalge (79.13%) and 98 Ban/23 DNB/3 Abstain for Serperior (83.05%). I actually voted myself and I'm glad all three were banned, the tier was really not fun when every other team had to have Bronzong to not get destroyed by the suspects.

    Also tier shifts are unofficially happening and it seems like Mega Sceptile is moving up to UU (wasn't broken in pre-suspect but unsurprising shift), along with Mega Pidgeot/Serperior so the suspect didn't matter for those two. Gligar is apparently on the edge so we may or may not lose that to UU, which would be a huge change. Banette, Virizion, Quagsire, Cofagrigus and Mawile (lol) are falling to NU and Claydol/Hitmonchan both might have finally fallen too (not Ambipom unfortunately). This is just judging from last month's usage though, not sure which of these changes will actually occur.
     
  20. Ace Trainer Riana

    Ace Trainer Riana Well-Known Member

    Gligar is UU and Glalie moved up
     

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