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Rumors & Leaks - Speculation/Discussion Thread [⚠️PLEASE HIDE STORY SPOILERS⚠️]

Ignition

From Pallet Town Rookie to World Champion
It’s not like anyone’s complaints are that the recent news is a “waste” so it’s fine. Plus the games come out in 50 days I’m sure most are less bothered by news not being satisfactory by now.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
You could make a tongue in cheek argument as say that Wiglett mimics Diglett because Wiglett are water type and are scared of electricity, so they pretend to be ground type Digletts to fool predators and avoid electric attacks :p

(inb4butgrassattacks)
Butterflies do it all the time so yeah, it makes sense that Wiglett would pretend to be a Diglett to avoid getting hit by a Pikachu’s Thunderbolt.
 
I quite wonder what they’re going to do with the evolution. On one hand I hope it will look more different compared to Dugtrio than what Wiglett does to Diglett. On the other hand if they change it dramatically the whole idea of these being a homage to convergent evolution falls a bit flat.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
I quite wonder what they’re going to do with the evolution. On one hand I hope it will look more different compared to Dugtrio than what Wiglett does to Diglett. On the other hand if they change it dramatically the whole idea of these being a homage to convergent evolution falls a bit flat.
I’m hoping it will gain the Rock typing upon evolving and have gravel like scales to hide even better on the ocean floor.
 

Pudimon

Certified Pudding Monster
I quite wonder what they’re going to do with the evolution. On one hand I hope it will look more different compared to Dugtrio than what Wiglett does to Diglett. On the other hand if they change it dramatically the whole idea of these being a homage to convergent evolution falls a bit flat.
I'm guessing Wugtrio will be three wigletts intermingled and nothing much different form that
 

Luthor

Well-Known Member
You could make a tongue in cheek argument as say that Wiglett mimics Diglett because Wiglett are water type and are scared of electricity, so they pretend to be ground type Digletts to fool predators and avoid electric attacks :p

(inb4butgrassattacks)
Butterflies do it all the time so yeah, it makes sense that Wiglett would pretend to be a Diglett to avoid getting hit by a Pikachu’s Thunderbolt.

Plus if I remember correctly don't we have an electric bird this time around? If that's reasonably common it could work as part of the reason. I'm mildly surprised it isn't Water/Ground (given part of its body is underground) but your idea does work better with it being pure water.
 

Smeargle-Sketch

Sketcher of Smeargles
Plus if I remember correctly don't we have an electric bird this time around? If that's reasonably common it could work as part of the reason. I'm mildly surprised it isn't Water/Ground (given part of its body is underground) but your idea does work better with it being pure water.
Yes, the regional bird is apparently a Petrel that is Flying/Electric.

I believe the reason for single typing is to match the Diglett line better. Not only that but to be the stronger type over all.

This theory makes sense with Tentacruel's convergent counterpart being a Jelly-Eared Mushroom Jellyfish that is Grass/Ground. Not only is it dual typed like the Tentracruel the, but the typing is advantageous over Water/Poison.
 

Rune Knight

Well-Known Member
In that sense, I hope that we get more RFakes of older gen 1 pokémon that were never expanded upon.

Doduo/Dodrio as Fighting/Electric
Paras/Parasect as Rock/Fire
Drowzee/Hypno as Ghost
Venonat/Venomoth as Flying/Psychic
 

AgentKallus

It's not a game Kate.
Similar DNA? Says who?
Isn't the whole idea that they have a similar phenotype without a similar genotype. So not similar DNA
 

Rune Knight

Well-Known Member
I don't know what any of these terms mean as I have no expertise in geneology and only familiar with the basics. I'm just thinking that they diverged from a common ancestor and that now they are distant relatives.

Or my personal theory: they are failed experiments, cloned subjects in one of many research projects that led to the replication of Mew. I wrote more about it last month, in case you are curious:

Forgive me if I sound obsessed with this topic. I have a theory based around the lore surrounding RF Pokémon.

Prior to the events of Gen I, Giovanni had commissioned a number of Scientists within the Paldea region to conduct experiments that would lead to the eventual attempt in cloning Mew. The goal was not only to learn how to duplicate DNA, but to alter it in a way that rendered it superior.

The test subjects that were used were directly sent to them by the Team Rocket Organization operating in the Kanto Region, which is why as far as we know they only consist of Gen I Pokémon; Diglett and Tentacool.

Although they succeeded in creating new Pokémon, they were deemed as failures for the following reasons:

1. They were not successful replications of the original Pokémon.
2. They were only made stronger because they were given types that are advantageous against the originals, which comes with disadvantages as well.

Thus, the research was scrapped, and with nothing left to do the new Pokémon were then released into the wild.

The project was eventually moved to Kanto under the direction of Dr. Fuji who was successful in genetically replicating and altering Pokémon. However, the project became a lot more complicated when it came to replicating Mew; and even though the scientists at the Pokémon mansion came close, the new Pokémon named "Mewtwo" became too powerful to control, and would eventually break out of its incubator and make its new home within Cerulean Cave.
 
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Kazuniya

how cute~
I'm just thinking that they diverged from a common ancestor and now they are a distant relatives.
If they diverged from a common ancestor, it would be divergent evolution.

An example of divergent evolution is stuff like like Alolan Meowth and Galarian Meowth. Two different variants of Meowth but they originate from a common ancestor, the regular Meowth. They share the same dex number and the same slot. Same species.

Wigglet is a different species from Diglett. They have a different name and a different Pokedex number. Evolutionary unrelated to Diglett. It ended up developing similar traits as a result of adapting to the environment.
 

Rune Knight

Well-Known Member
If they diverged from a common ancestor, it would be divergent evolution.

An example of divergent evolution is stuff like like Alolan Meowth and Galarian Meowth. Two different variants of Meowth but they originate from a common ancestor, the regular Meowth. They share the same dex number and the same slot. Same species.

Wigglet is a different species from Diglett. They have a different name and a different Pokedex number. Evolutionary unrelated to Diglett. It ended up developing similar traits as a result of adapting to the environment.

That's not how the concept of a common ancestor works. Alolan Meowth and Galarian Meowth while still the same species as the Kantonian Meowth did not directly evolve from it.

All three variants of Meowth are descendants of an original species that is the ancestor to all of the Meowths.

Eventually after many years, all three variants of Meowth will become their own separate species.

Diglett and Wiglett are descendants from an original species that is the ancestor to both pokémon, but their time frame is so far apart that they have become separate species, like will one day happen to the Meowths.

You can watch this video to get a sort of visual explanation:


I hope I'm not bothering anyone with this; I think that it's fun to speculate and add on to this topic, and I hope that I'm not being disrespectful to anyone.
 
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LordSerperior

Well-Known Member
That's not how the concept of a common ancestor works. Alolan Meowth and Galarian Meowth while still the same species as the Kantonian Meowth did not evolve directly from it.

All three variants of Meowth are descendants of an original species that is the ancestor to all of the Meowths.

Eventually after many years, all three variants of Meowth will become their own species.

Diglett and Wiglett are descendants from an original species that is the ancestor to both pokémon, but so far apart that they have become seperate species, like will one day happen to the Meowths.
Yes and no. All species share a common ancestors and have evolved into separate species through divergent evolution but different taxonomical groups can then converge to evolve similar features/behaviours/relationships if faced with similar evolutionary pressures. Genetically they are not closely related but they look similar. Diglett and Wiglett seem to be a case of that (going by the main site's oversimplified description) and not a speciation event where different populations of the same species become isolated and become separate species.

But all these discussions highlight are the fact that using these relatively complex ecological concepts as the basis of Pokemon was not a good idea because despite real world parallels, Pokemon do not follow real world biology, nor is the in-universe fictional biology very well-defined. Pokemon can breed across species, the taxonomy is not defined at all, there's so many ways in which deviates from the real world. So all these concepts are being introduced without the context in which they exist and feels unnecessary. As someone who basically studies this, it sort of breaks the suspension of disbelief for me. And then there is also misunderstanding and conflation of ideas that is spreading within the fandom discourse since the reveal.

Edit: Missed parts of the description of speciation
 

Kazuniya

how cute~
Diglett and Wiglett are descendants from an original species that is the ancestor to both pokémon,
I disagree.

You're portraying this situation as if Diglett/Wigglet and Meowth/Alolan/Galarian Variant are the same situation. They are not. That's the whole point. All the Meowths have a common ancestor and *are* related in that way.

Wigglet and Diglett do not, they merely resemble each other.

Divergent = species with a common ancestor that change to become increasingly different over time (Meowth/Galarian Meowth/Alolan Meowth)
Convergent = unrelated species that develop similar characteristics over time (Diglett/Wigglet)
 

Rune Knight

Well-Known Member
Okay, I'm starting to see what all of you mean.

Basically they are two different pokémon that happen to look like one another, developped similar traits and characteristics because they were exposed to similar factors, but they aren't related in any way, making them convergent species.

I apologize that I didn't get it earlier.
 
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Litleonid

Well-Known Member
Divergent = species with a common ancestor that change to become increasingly different over time (Meowth/Galarian Meowth/Alolan Meowth)
Convergent = unrelated species that develop similar characteristics over time (Diglett/Wigglet)
Yeah, this is exactly what they are, though apparently Pearl, someone who sumarizes Kaka's info also doesn't like the term convergent species because of the Tentacool mushroom? Either way; its better than RFake. Regardless, I don't think these Pokemon need a specific term, but it just shouldn't be RFake. I think its more about if there is a term, it should sound like something TPCI would actually use
 
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Rune Knight

Well-Known Member
Yes and no. All species share a common ancestors and have evolved into separate species through divergent evolution but different taxonomical groups can then converge to evolve similar features/behaviours/relationships if faced with similar evolutionary pressures. Genetically they are not closely related but they look similar. Diglett and Wiglett seem to be a case of that (going by the main site's oversimplified description) and not a speciation event where different populations of the same species become isolated and become separate species.

But all these discussions highlight are the fact that using these relatively complex ecological concepts as the basis of Pokemon was not a good idea because despite real world parallels, Pokemon do not follow real world biology, nor is the in-universe fictional biology very well-defined. Pokemon can breed across species, the taxonomy is not defined at all, there's so many ways in which deviates from the real world. So all these concepts are being introduced without the context in which they exist and feels unnecessary. As someone who basically studies this, it sort of breaks the suspension of disbelief for me. And then there is also misunderstanding and conflation of ideas that is spreading within the fandom discourse since the reveal.

Edit: Missed parts of the description of speciation

And I guess that in a way Pokémon are meant to belong to a completely different domain to the Animal Kingdom; I believe that in the anime's 12th Movie they were even classified as magical creatures; so applying them with the same rules as to that of naturalism is kind of complicated.

We've been provided with a few real-world animal references every now and then, but the only ones that are presently certain are humans.

The fact that humans within the Pokémon World cannot be captured or contained within pokéballs suggests that they are very different indeed.
 

kemal07

Well-Known Member
I disagree.

You're portraying this situation as if Diglett/Wigglet and Meowth/Alolan/Galarian Variant are the same situation. They are not. That's the whole point. All the Meowths have a common ancestor and *are* related in that way.

Wigglet and Diglett do not, they merely resemble each other.

Divergent = species with a common ancestor that change to become increasingly different over time (Meowth/Galarian Meowth/Alolan Meowth)
Convergent = unrelated species that develop similar characteristics over time (Diglett/Wigglet)
I agree, well explained.

As for the names of Pokémon, it is probable that the humans have named all Pokémon species through history and time. Similar to how in real life, humans are the ones who have given each animal / creature a name. Because Wiglett and Diglett look very much alike, the concept is probably that the humans in the Pokémon world have also named the two different species with very similar names due to their very similar striking appearances.

I think we have to try and step out from the knowledge and awareness that Nintendo named these Pokémon and put ourselves into an imaginary role as if we are within the Pokémon world to understand why fictional people have given two Pokémon that look almost identical very similar names. Kind of like:

'Oh this Pokémon looks very much like Diglett but it really is a different species of Pokémon. For this reason we shall call this species Wiglett'
 
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