Rumors & Leaks - Speculation/Discussion Thread

[ShadowForce720]

I thought I'd do some counting with the info that we have and Gen 9 dex is shaping up quite nicely.

57 confirmed new pokemon (confirmed lines and evolution amounts)
9 Additional lines (We know they have lines but not how many or if all evolve)
-- 9 new Pokemon minimum-27 new Pokemon maximum. Most likely somewhere in the middle in terms of evolution line counts.


14 Paradox Pokemon excluding Suicune and Virizion, 7 per version
4 Regional Forms
1 Regional Evolution
4 Cross-Gen Evolutions
3 Convergent Pokemon


71 confirmed new Pokemon at minimum
89 confirmed new Pokemon at maximum
18 New Pokemon Forms
3 Convergent Pokemon (unsure how to fit them)

Altogether the Gen 9 dex could be:
92 Pokemon at minimum
110 at maximum

Just putting this out but although some people keep calling mons like past Suicune, Future Hariyama Paradox forms, there not actually consider forms and are consider to be entirely separate Pokémon with a separate Dex number and name.

So basically for instance Past Suicune is not a form of Suicune just like how Miraidon is not a form of Koraidon and is considered its own separate Pokémon.

Also the convergent Pokémon are also separate new Pokémon, that just happened to resemble some past gen mons.

 

[Smeargle-Sketch]

Just putting this out but although some people keep calling mons like past Suicune, Future Hariyama Paradox forms, there not actually consider forms and are consider to be entirely separate Pokémon with a separate Dex number and name.

So basically for instance Past Suicune is not a form of Suicune just like how Miraidon is not a form of Koraidon and is considered its own separate Pokémon.

Also the convergent Pokémon are also separate new Pokémon, that just happened to resemble some past gen mons.

Yes, however, I just separated them as such to keep track of the amount of each type of Pokemon for counting measures.

And be a bit more visual.

 

[Ultra Beast Lover]

The best analogy I can think of for the paradox forms is dog breeds. All dogs descend from wolves so I guess that would make wolves the past paradox forms and I don't know what the future paradox forms would be, maybe the ones that differ the most from their wolf ancestor? Like they're still a dog but the similarities to wolves are minuscule at best?

Yeah, I have no clue what the real life analogy would be here. I thought I had something with the wolves and dogs then it fell apart with the future forms.

 

[ShadowForce720]

Yes, however, I just separated them as such to keep track of the amount of each type of Pokemon for counting measures.

And be a bit more visual.

Yes but then you put 18 new Pokémon form which I presuming you were counting both the regional forms and the Paradox Pokémon as forms which to consider or refer to Paradox Pokémon as just forms is incorrect as they are entirely separate Pokémon.

So there is only 4 new Pokémon forms.

 

[Smeargle-Sketch]

Yes but then you put 18 new Pokémon form which I presuming you were counting both the regional forms and the Paradox Pokémon as forms which to consider or refer to Paradox Pokémon as just forms is incorrect as they are entirely separate Pokémon.

So there is only 4 new Pokémon forms.

Yes, 14 Paradox
4 Regional

I grouped them together because even though they have a different name and number, they are still another form based off of a pre-existing Pokemon.

Either way, we're on the same page.

 

[Mr.Munchlax]

I really hope the Girafarig evolution is one that turns out to be real because that Pokemon hasn't gotten the justice it deserves.

I'm hoping the Primeape evolution is real too because I've been wanting to use one for a while & this would be the perfect opportunity

 

[ShadowForce720]

Yes, 14 Paradox
4 Regional

I grouped them together because even though they have a different name and number, they are still another form based off of a pre-existing Pokemon.

No that is actually incorrect. Paradox Pokémon are not forms. That’s like trying to say that a Wolly Mammoth or Saber Tooth Tiger is just another form of Elephant and a Tiger which is factually incorrect.

Heck the mascots of Scarlet & Violet are Paradox Pokémon, so just as Miraidon is not a form of Koraidon and is considered a completely separate Pokémon from Koraidon, the same is true for Past Suicune and Future Hariyama.


In that Past Suicune and Future Hariyama are completely different and separate Pokémon from Suicune and Hariyama.

So again there are only 4 new Pokémon forms being the 4 new regional variants.

As Paradox Pokémon are not forms are considered completely new Pokémon.

 

[Smeargle-Sketch]

No that is actually incorrect. Paradox Pokémon are not forms. That’s like trying to say that a Wolly Mammoth or Saber Tooth Tiger is just another form of Elephant and a Tiger which is factually incorrect.

Heck the mascots of Scarlet & Violet are Paradox Pokémon, so just as Miraidon is not a form of Koraidon and is considered a completely separate Pokémon from Koraidon, the same is true for Past Suicune and Future Hariyama.


In that Past Suicune and Future Hariyama are completely different and separate Pokémon from Suicune and Hariyama.

So again there are only 4 new Pokémon forms being the 4 new regional variants.

As Paradox Pokémon are not forms are considered completely new Pokémon.

We have already seen 2 Paradox Pokemon

Jigglypuff is Jigglypuff with different eye color and fangs.
Amoongus is Amoongus but with spikes on its cap and other additions.

They might have different names, but they still look like their usual forms.

 

[ShadowForce720]

We have already seen 2 Paradox Pokemon

Jigglypuff is Jigglypuff with different eye color and fangs.
Amoongus is Amoongus but with spikes on its cap and other additions.

But they still look like their usual forms.

They are still not forms. It’s just like how Miraidon is not a form of Koraidon. Paradox Pokémon are completely different and separate Pokémon from their original counterparts hence why they have separate names and Dex numbers.
So no matter how you try to argue it calling Paradox Pokémon forms is incorrect.

Ancient/Past Jigglypuff and Ancient/Past Amoongus are not form of Jigglypuff and Amoongus and that’s not even their actual names as they completely separate and different Pokémon from Jigglypuff and Amoongus.


Paradox Pokémon are basically descendants/ancestors of modern day Pokémon however they are not forms of those modern day Pokémon and considering entirely separate and different Pokémon. Just like how a wooly mammoth and saber tooth tiger are not the same thing as a elephant and a tiger.

 

[Pudimon]

No that is actually incorrect. Paradox Pokémon are not forms. That’s like trying to say that a Wolly Mammoth or Saber Tooth Tiger is just another form of Elephant and a Tiger which is factually incorrect.

Heck the mascots of Scarlet & Violet are Paradox Pokémon, so just as Miraidon is not a form of Koraidon and is considered a completely separate Pokémon from Koraidon, the same is true for Past Suicune and Future Hariyama.


In that Past Suicune and Future Hariyama are completely different and separate Pokémon from Suicune and Hariyama.

So again there are only 4 new Pokémon forms being the 4 new regional variants.

As Paradox Pokémon are not forms are considered completely new Pokémon.

I think that's just a technicality. Sure, they will work differently from regional variants, but I think it's really unlikely for people to treat them in a much different way they treat regional variants. We'll see when the games are released, but I'd bet there'll be in-game dialogues refering to the paradox pokémon as different forms of already existing pokémon even though they are considered to be different pokémon in the dex.

 

[ShadowForce720]

I think that's just a technicality. Sure, they will work differently from regional variants, but I think it's really unlikely for people to treat them in a much different way they treat regional variants. We'll see when the games are released, but I'd bet there'll be in-game dialogues refering to the paradox pokémon as different forms of already existing pokémon even though they are considered to be different pokémon in the dex.

Again that’s like trying to say that saber tooth tiger and a tiger are the same thing when they are not.

 

[Smeargle-Sketch]

Again that’s like trying to say that saber tooth tiger and a tiger are the same thing when they are not.

Ok but visually there is a stark difference in design between just a regular sabre-tooth tiger and a bengal/amur/siberian tiger.

We're talking Pokemon here and viusally, at its default is an already designed Pokemon with different features upon it. Paradox Pokemon are just time travelling regional forms.

Like when people wanted to call Alolan Sandslash, Snowslash. That's what Paradox Pokemon are, just that. Paradox Jigglypuff may just be called Jigglygruff or something.

You know what this discussion is a paradox.

 

[ShadowForce720]

Ok but visually there is a stark difference in design between just a regular sabre-tooth tiger and a bengal/amur/siberian tiger.

We're talking Pokemon here and viusally, at its default is an already designed Pokemon with different features upon it. Paradox Pokemon are just time travelling regional forms.

You know what this discussion is a paradox.

Again Paradox Pokémon are not forms nor are they regional variants. They are completely separate and different Pokémon.

Heck just look at Miraidon and Koraidon they are examples of paradox Pokémon. So no Paradox Pokémon are not forms and it is incorrect to call them forms.

 

[Ultra Beast Lover]

Let's just wait for the actual confirmation to explain it.

 

[Smeargle-Sketch]

Again Paradox Pokémon are not forms nor are they regional variants. They are completely separate and different Pokémon.

Heck just look at Miraidon and Koraidon they are examples of paradox Pokémon. So no Paradox Pokémon are not forms and it is incorrect to call them forms.

YES BUT MIRAIDON AND KORAIDON AREN'T PARADOX JIGGLYPUFF AND JIGGLYPUFF!

Plus they look the same and that would mean they are Paradox Pokemon to another Pokemon that looks just like them.

Just like how Solgaleo and Lunaala are categorized as Ultra Beasts yet do not follow the design laws like the rest of them.

Let's just wait for the actual confirmation to explain it.

Sounds good.

 

[Pudimon]

Again that’s like trying to say that saber tooth tiger and a tiger are the same thing when they are not.

You are not wrong there, but what I'm saying is how things probably gonna happen, not how they should be.

Videogames do not need to respect real life conventions all the time.

Let's just wait for the actual confirmation to explain it.

Yep, let's see that in the october trailer I suppose

 

[Julia Artemis]

I'm hoping the Worlds trailer is about Paradox and "Convergent" Pokémon. We really need a good explanation of that and not the confusing information we have gotten so far. If not probably in September.

 

[Litleonid]

I'm hoping the Worlds trailer is about Paradox and "Convergent" Pokémon. We really need a good explanation of that and not the confusing information we have gotten so far. If not probably in September.

Yeah these need some clearing up. Also I'd just like to see some new features. Kaka said stuff like we can have picnics and make sandwiches?

 

[lemoncatpower]

Again Paradox Pokémon are not forms nor are they regional variants. They are completely separate and different Pokémon.

Heck just look at Miraidon and Koraidon they are examples of paradox Pokémon. So no Paradox Pokémon are not forms and it is incorrect to call them forms.

You are definitely right.

To repeat: dogs did not evolve from wolves, dogs and wolves evolved from the same ancestor. Smilodons (commonly called sabertoothed tigers) are not closely related to tigers and have very distance similar ancestors. Mammoths and elephants as known today also evolved from a similar ancestor. Even humans commonly mistake that we evolved from monkeys or chimpanzees. No, we evolved from common ancestors, we did not evolve from monkeys or chimpanzees. Birds evolved from dinosaurs, and are still considered dinosaurs but they're evolved into new. These forms are different species although they have relations to each other.

Sorry, just wanted to reiterate what you've been saying in a different way.

With the legendaries having different names for it's species, it sort of confirms that this is how it will be. A noted relation, but not the same species.

 

[Wulava]

More Kaka stuff:

• There are 16 Paradox Pokemon.
  • Ancient: Boss_A, Volcarona, Amoonguss, Jigglypuff, Misdreavus, 'Mag', 'Moon', 'S'
  • Future: Boss_B, Volcarona, Gallade, Hariyama, Delibird, 'Chicken', 'Group', 'V'
• There are 3 Paradox pseudo-legendaries
• The Tauros forms are called 'Black Bull, 'Red Bull', and 'Blue Bull'
• The bike Pokemon is the origin of Koraidon/Miraidon
• The angry face on the Terastal crystals is related to the third legendary
• The third legendary is probably saved for the DLC
• There is an insanely good Gen 9 Pokemon because of its ability but bad type resistances
• Fuecoco's final evo can actual stand up
• Nemona is a "young lady"
• The Dragon/Ice Pokemon is 3-staged
• Sprigatito is the only new cat Pokemon
• The fish Pokemon is separate from the sushi and dolphin