Sawyer vs Tyson Poll Tally

[Genaller]

So let's see:

Slurpuff + Salamence ~ Shiftry + Donphan
Slaking + Clawitzer ~ Hariyama + Sceptile
Aegeslash < Metagross but would put up a tough fight
(Mega) Sceptile > Meowth by a pretty significant amount

Which one of these claims would Tyson supporters have the most issues with.

 

[345ash-greninja]

So let's see:

Slurpuff + Salamence ~ Shiftry + Donphan
Slaking + Clawitzer ~ Hariyama + Sceptile
Aegeslash < Metagross but would put up a tough fight
(Mega) Sceptile > Meowth by a pretty significant amount

Which one of these claims would Tyson supporters have the most issues with.

I'd say that the first one is a bit debatable. Honestly where do you place Donphan(it was giving Swellow a tough time)?

 

[Genaller]

I'd say that the first one is a bit debatable. Honestly where do you place Donphan(it was giving Swellow a tough time)?

Eh a full tier below (basically a Pokémon needs to be within a tier of a another Pokémon to give them that kind of trouble) but not higher since Swellow did also take considerable damage from Hariyama's Seismic Toss and Metagross Psychic + getting finished off by Hyperbeam. I place Aegeslash at mid t-2 because it gave Kalos Pikachu (who barring Peak mode was still mid t-1 at least) similar trouble. I will admit to the Tyson supporters that like this forum I genuinely don't know who would win IF Sawyer didn't resort to ME.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Eh a full tier below (basically a Pokémon needs to be within a tier of a another Pokémon to give them that kind of trouble) but not higher since Swellow did also take considerable damage from Hariyama's Seismic Toss and Metagross Psychic + getting finished off by Hyperbeam. I place Aegeslash at mid t-2 because it gave Kalos Pikachu (who barring Peak mode was still mid t-1 at least) similar trouble. I will admit to the Tyson supporters that like this forum I genuinely don't know who would win IF Sawyer didn't resort to ME.

I would say Sawyer still wins in a close match without Mega Evolution and wins pretty decisively with Mega Evolution.

Yeah honestly Metagross could've done the bulk of the damage to bring down Swellow since Swellow visibly didn't look tired/injured after beating Donphan. Aegislash pretty much have Pikachu mid difficulty(though Pikachu did take a bit of damage from Clawitzer- Electro Ball/Dragon Pulse clash)

 

[Genaller]

I would say Sawyer still wins in a close match without Mega Evolution and wins pretty decisively with Mega Evolution.

Yeah honestly Metagross could've done the bulk of the damage to bring down Swellow since Swellow visibly didn't look tired/injured after beating Donphan. Aegislash pretty much have Pikachu mid difficulty(though Pikachu did take a bit of damage from Clawitzer- Electro Ball/Dragon Pulse clash)

I wouldn't say bulk but it wasn't insignificant. I feel like with Tyson's Sceptile there are 2 interpretations. 1 is that Sceptile = Glalie = mid t-2 since they both KOed each other. The other is that Sceptile would be slightly above Glalie (high t-2) since it launched a neutral effective move but Glalie launched an SE move. Taking the high ball we get:

Slurpuff vs Shiftry -> Slurpuff
Slurpuff vs Donphan -> Donphan
Salamence vs Donphan -> Draw
Slaking vs Hariyama -> Slaking
Slaking vs Sceptile -> Sceptile
Clawitzer vs Sceptile -> Sceptile
Aegeslash vs Sceptile -> Aegeslash
Aegeslash vs Metagross -> Metagross
Sceptile vs Metagross -> Sceptile
Sceptile vs Meowth -> Meowth barely

with a low ball the changes would be:

Sceptile vs Clawitzer -> Draw
Aegeslash vs Metagross -> Metagross
Sceptile vs Metagross -> Sceptile
Sceptile vs Meowth -> Sceptile barely/Draw

Basically Aegeslash would bring Metagross down to like 15-20% in a regular battle but closer to 25% if chip damaged by T-Sceptile setting up an uphill battle for S-Sceptile. Now before Tyson supporters think I switched sides:

Mega Sceptile vs Meowth -> Mega Sceptile
Mega Sceptile vs Metagross -> Mega Sceptile
Mega Sceptile vs Sceptile -> Draw (high balling T-Sceptile here)
Slaking vs Hariyama -> Slaking
Slaking vs Donphan -> Donphan
Clawitzer vs Donphan -> Clawitzer
Clawitzer vs Shiftry -> Clawitzer
though Sawyer could be a real d*** and send Aegeslash after MS yielding:
Aegeslash vs Donphan -> Aegesalsh
Aegeslash vs Shiftry -> Aegeslash
Aegeslash vs Hariyama -> Aegeslash by default even if it were low on health

Y'know I keep hearing that Sawyer only did well because his strats were tailor made for Ash's team though honestly those strats could be applied against a plethora of other Pokémon and it's not like Sawyer doesn't make strats for other traienrs (like Tierno). Sawyer also has good improvisation skills like Ash (though of course not to the same degree) and his skills were good enough to earn praise from a Champion.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

Looks like Sawyer is winning by a hair again anyway

 

[Navin]

Looks like Sawyer is winning by a hair again anyway

Wonder whose sub-100 post alt accounts those are

Basically, like the previous thread, it's neck-and-neck, and looking at the posters, can be divided based on series liking. Barring extremes, most would agree it'd be a close 6-5 tilting one way.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

Wonder whose sub-100 post alt accounts those are

Basically, like the previous thread, it's neck-and-neck, and looking at the posters, can be divided based on series liking. Barring extremes, most would agree it'd be a close 6-5 tilting one way.

Even if I did have alternate accounts, I can't sockpuppet. I end up getting into arguments...with myself.

 

[Genaller]

Wonder whose sub-100 post alt accounts those are

Basically, like the previous thread, it's neck-and-neck, and looking at the posters, can be divided based on series liking. Barring extremes, most would agree it'd be a close 6-5 tilting one way.

I think it's more based on how much of a boost people believe ME provides since I think non-ME Sawyer vs Tyson would be close and I'd even give Tyson the edge (maybe Tyson would get a record of like 5-4-1 if he battled non-ME Sawyer 10 times).

Also if it really were the "XYers are dopplegangers" case, then the poster "Snorlax512" would've definitely voted for Sawyer but he's not around (for a while in fact; hope he's doing well) so there goes that conspiracy.

 

[Navin]

I end up getting into arguments...with myself.

Who tf has to alt-vote?

Topu Keku.

I think it's more based on how much of a boost people believe ME provides since I think non-ME Sawyer vs Tyson would be close and I'd even give Tyson the edge (maybe Tyson would get a record of like 5-4-1 if he battled non-ME Sawyer 10 times).

People would say it's close because he has the Mega Sceptile. Without ME, it's completely over.

 

[Genaller]

People would say it's close because he has the Mega Sceptile. Without ME, it's completely over.

Well "win" =\= win by a close margin (maybe I should've added those more specific options; eh there's always next year ). Pretty sure he comfortably makes it to the last Pokémon even without a Mega so the question really is how much does ME increase Sawyer's odds (notice I'm just asking for the delta chance irrespective of what you think are the actual chances in both cases).

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Wonder whose sub-100 post alt accounts those are

[IMG139]https://img.fireden.net/v/image/1445/72/1445725482849.gif[/IMG139]

 

[Navin]

Well "win" =\= win by a close margin (maybe I should've added those more specific options; eh there's always next year ). Pretty sure he comfortably makes it to the last Pokémon even without a Mega so the question really is how much does ME increase Sawyer's odds (notice I'm just asking for the delta chance irrespective of what you think are the actual chances in both cases).

Goes from being a close final win to comfortable final win.

Also, for all the talk of Sawyer and his strategizing and counterplay, Tyson could do just the same. I don't think any champion of a tough league who wins with the same team through five consecutive full battles goes by without doing his research or picking the ideal matchups. So even though we assume he'll save Meowth, he'll take Lightning Rod into consideration.

 

[Genaller]

Goes from being a close final win to comfortable final win.

Also, for all the talk of Sawyer and his strategizing and counterplay, Tyson could do just the same. I don't think any champion of a tough league who wins with the same team through five consecutive full battles goes by without doing his research or picking the ideal matchups. So even though we assume he'll save Meowth, he'll take Lightning Rod into consideration.

So then I guess MS's boost would fall close to your lower bound. Well at least you now think it would be close (I remember you initially saying it would be a 6-5 with Tyson not needing his 6th or if he did then it would be an easy RK) and I recall you also admitting that Sawyer could beat Harrison and give Gary with his best team an even fight so I guess your opinion on this has probably changed as much as it reasonably could.

There are 2 different battles here; 1 where both trainers have knowledge and can prepare accordingly and 1 where they don't have knowledge on eachother barring just what Pokémon the other tends to use. In the latter case Hariyama gets scr**** by Counter but in the former presumably Tyson would maybe use a long range attacksr like Sceptile on Slaking. Of course this is just an example and can work the other way around as well (like Sawyer could specifically use Mega Sceptile whenever Tyson uses Meowth if he does so earlier in the battle since he knows that Meowth would then be handicapped by a 1 move deficit).

 

[345ash-greninja]

I wouldn't say bulk but it wasn't insignificant. I feel like with Tyson's Sceptile there are 2 interpretations. 1 is that Sceptile = Glalie = mid t-2 since they both KOed each other. The other is that Sceptile would be slightly above Glalie (high t-2) since it launched a neutral effective move but Glalie launched an SE move. Taking the high ball we get:

Slurpuff vs Shiftry -> Slurpuff
Slurpuff vs Donphan -> Donphan
Salamence vs Donphan -> Draw
Slaking vs Hariyama -> Slaking
Slaking vs Sceptile -> Sceptile
Clawitzer vs Sceptile -> Sceptile
Aegeslash vs Sceptile -> Aegeslash
Aegeslash vs Metagross -> Metagross
Sceptile vs Metagross -> Sceptile
Sceptile vs Meowth -> Meowth barely

with a low ball the changes would be:

Sceptile vs Clawitzer -> Draw
Aegeslash vs Metagross -> Metagross
Sceptile vs Metagross -> Sceptile
Sceptile vs Meowth -> Sceptile barely/Draw

Basically Aegeslash would bring Metagross down to like 15-20% in a regular battle but closer to 25% if chip damaged by T-Sceptile setting up an uphill battle for S-Sceptile. Now before Tyson supporters think I switched sides:

Mega Sceptile vs Meowth -> Mega Sceptile
Mega Sceptile vs Metagross -> Mega Sceptile
Mega Sceptile vs Sceptile -> Draw (high balling T-Sceptile here)
Slaking vs Hariyama -> Slaking
Slaking vs Donphan -> Donphan
Clawitzer vs Donphan -> Clawitzer
Clawitzer vs Shiftry -> Clawitzer
though Sawyer could be a real d*** and send Aegeslash after MS yielding:
Aegeslash vs Donphan -> Aegesalsh
Aegeslash vs Shiftry -> Aegeslash
Aegeslash vs Hariyama -> Aegeslash by default even if it were low on health

Y'know I keep hearing that Sawyer only did well because his strats were tailor made for Ash's team though honestly those strats could be applied against a plethora of other Pokémon and it's not like Sawyer doesn't make strats for other traienrs (like Tierno). Sawyer also has good improvisation skills like Ash (though of course not to the same degree) and his skills were good enough to earn praise from a Champion.

I'd just say if Mega Sceptile opens it could be a nightmare for Tyson. Meowth wouldn't deal more damage than 25% to Mega Sceptile with Thunderbolt being neutralized. Let's high ball and say that Metagross deals about 45% damage and brings Mega Sceptile to 30%. After that, who will deal the remaining 30% damage? I doubt Tyson's Sceptile can do that much. Hariyama has no way to dodge Frenzy Plants so it's basically done. And there is no way Donphan and Shiftry are doing **** to Mega Sceptile.

I honestly didn't think it would be this way initially but when I put a deep thought it seemed like that.

 

[Navin]

So then I guess MS's boost would fall close to your lower bound. Well at least you now think it would be close (I remember you initially saying it would be a 6-5 with Tyson not needing his 6th or if he did then it would be an easy RK) and I recall you also admitting that Sawyer could beat Harrison and give Gary with his best team an even fight so I guess your opinion on this has probably changed as much as it reasonably could.

There are 2 different battles here; 1 where both trainers have knowledge and can prepare accordingly and 1 where they don't have knowledge on eachother barring just what Pokémon the other tends to use. In the latter case Hariyama gets scr**** by Counter but in the former presumably Tyson would maybe use a long range attacksr like Sceptile on Slaking. Of course this is just an example and can work the other way around as well (like Sawyer could specifically use Mega Sceptile whenever Tyson uses Meowth if he does so earlier in the battle since he knows that Meowth would then be handicapped by a 1 move deficit).

Honestly, I forgot all what I had said. The only consistency is that Tyson wins in some shape or form.

If there is no prep beforehand, then that's clear disadvantage to Sawyer, who pretty much built his teams for counterplay.

 

[Genaller]

Honestly, I forgot all what I had said. The only inconsistency is that Tyson wins in some shape or form.

If there is no prep beforehand, then that's clear disadvantage to Sawyer, who pretty much built his teams for counterplay.

Fixed .

Not really. His strategies can usually be generalized and used in many different cases (like luring out a fighting type with Slaking, scouting their moves with its bulk+recovery and then using a surprise Counter the next time said Pokémon uses their strongest move). Btw when was it confirmed that Tyson even used the same team for all 5 full battles in the HL?

 

[345ash-greninja]

Fixed .

Not really. His strategies can usually be generalized and used in many different cases (like luring out a fighting type with Slaking, scouting their moves with its bulk+recovery and then using a surprise Counter the next time said Pokémon uses their strongest move). Btw when was it confirmed that Tyson even used the same team for all 5 full battles in the HL?

We never saw Tyson using any Pokemon other than those six, so......I honestly think he did.

Anyway what I said in an above post might be true. Tyson would find it difficult to take down Mega Sceptile with his entire team(I initially didn't think it like that, but after putting in a deep thought I can't think otherwise).

 

[Genaller]

I'd just say if Mega Sceptile opens it could be a nightmare for Tyson. Meowth wouldn't deal more damage than 25% to Mega Sceptile with Thunderbolt being neutralized. Let's high ball and say that Metagross deals about 45% damage and brings Mega Sceptile to 30%. After that, who will deal the remaining 30% damage? I doubt Tyson's Sceptile can do that much. Hariyama has no way to dodge Frenzy Plants so it's basically done. And there is no way Donphan and Shiftry are doing **** to Mega Sceptile.

I honestly didn't think it would be this way initially but when I put a deep thought it seemed like that.

You're forgetting 1 little thing; stamina drain. If it had constant stamina throughout then it might very well sweep but it will definitely get very tired by the time it takes out Meowth+Metagross. I admit that I consider even drawing with T-Sceptile at that point a high ball for T-Sceptile though after T-Sceptile MS should be utterly exhausted to the point where even Hariyama could beat it (though it might still get damaged). Of course after that Sawyer justs sends out Aegeslash and it's gg from there.

 

[345ash-greninja]

You're forgetting 1 little thing; stamina drain. If it had constant stamina throughout then it might very well sweep but it will definitely get very tired by the time it takes out Meowth+Metagross. I admit that I consider even drawing with T-Sceptile at that point a high ball for T-Sceptile though after T-Sceptile MS should be utterly exhausted to the point where even Hariyama could beat it (though it might still get damaged). Of course after that Sawyer justs sends out Aegeslash and it's gg from there.

I get your point but how is Hariyama surviving those Frenzy Plants? Tyson's Sceptile still has Detect so maybe it can do something, but then again Mega Sceptile quad-resists Grass type moves. Even being at its absolute brink Mega Sceptile can just spam Frenzy Plants(which will crush Hariyama, Donphan and Shiftry in all probability).