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Sawyer vs Tyson Poll Tally

Sawyer vs Tyson; who wins!?


  • Total voters
    50

Navin

MALDREAD
I think the better option will be to have a tyson vs sawyer battle with tyson having mega metagross. I am pretty sure tyson would be revealed with mega metagross, if they ever bring him back after watching brock and misty coming with megas. In that case its safe to assume that tyson would then conviniently take out sawyer.

Tyson with M-Metagross would easily win.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
I think the better option will be to have a tyson vs sawyer battle with tyson having mega metagross. I am pretty sure tyson would be revealed with mega metagross, if they ever bring him back after watching brock and misty coming with megas. In that case its safe to assume that tyson would then conviniently take out sawyer.

Tyson was a character created only to boot Ash out of the League. So the chances are almost nil that he'll ever again reappear, much less with a Mega Metagross. So we can't consider that.

Tyson with M-Metagross would easily win.

Too bad he'd never have it. :)
 
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Genaller

Silver Soul
I think the better option will be to have a tyson vs sawyer battle with tyson having mega metagross. I am pretty sure tyson would be revealed with mega metagross, if they ever bring him back after watching brock and misty coming with megas. In that case its safe to assume that tyson would then conviniently take out sawyer.

Yeah they'd give him Z-move Meowth if anything.

Yeah MAL and what was CMB's argument for this conclusion again? and Tyson's great battle strategies/tactics are? Also name 1 overtly specific strategy that Sawyer couldn't use in several other situations. He can figure out how a Pokémon functions during battle and then use the appropriate general counter measure (sort of like strategy templates). With ME Sawyer wins handidly (matter of fact Tyson looses 6-1 if Sawyer opens with M-Sceptile (once again nothing wrong with this conclusion when given where I place A-G and how MS should scale to him)) and it would be a very close match either way if he doesn't use ME. I guess then if Tyson had ME/Z-move it might also be a very close match though then again Sawyer is being mentored by a Champion so he's likely to make massive gains in the future. Seriously the overrating of Tyson on the basis of "hype" (that's pretty much what "won in 'grueling' league format" amounts to) is absurd (recall that Tyson's overrating is a completely separate case from any potential Sawyer overrating that you believe to be the case). Frankly I think Sawyer with ME is more comparable to the AG and DP teams (though of course he looses here) than he is to Tyson but meh I thought we should clear things up based on the confusion from last year's thread so the current PAD consensus is that Sawyer is marginally better than Tyson (would perhaps get a result of 5-4-1 in 10 battles vs Tyson) and that's good enough for me.
 

LadyTriox

I have a boyfriend now; I am his princess❤️
I'm going to go with Sawyer :)

I have good memories of laughing at his japanese name (seriously, who wouldn't? :p), also i've grown rather fond of his wanting to learn everything about battles as he can. Maybe I feel I relate to him a little....also the way he looks up to ash is nice.

Then again, I don't remember Tyson too well. :p
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Yeah MAL and what was CMB's argument for this conclusion again?

Tyson wins handily if Sawyer doesn't have any prep beforehand.

With ME Sawyer wins handidly (matter of fact Tyson looses 6-1 if Sawyer opens with M-Sceptile (once again nothing wrong with this conclusion when given where I place A-G and how MS should scale to him))

What a joke.

And this is why this poll and all these other threads tend to end up with pro-XY fans vs everybody else.

Seriously the overrating of Tyson on the basis of "hype" (that's pretty much what "won in 'grueling' league format" amounts to) is absurd (recall that Tyson's overrating is a completely separate case from any potential Sawyer overrating that you believe to be the case).

Nobody is overrating Tyson lol. He's not even a super memorable character that would be overrated. You can't seem to accept that half this community expects a league champion to win.

PAD consensus is that Sawyer is marginally better than Tyson (would perhaps get a result of 5-4-1 in 10 battles vs Tyson) and that's good enough for me.

Even the poll is pretty much a consensus draw if you look at the votes lol. Without that draw option, two of those goes to T; the alts are disregarded; and stuff like the above poster who doesn't even remember T, or CMB who says Tyson wins if Sawyer doesn't get prep...and you get a clear draw.
 
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Frozocrone

Miraculous!
Most of PAD could care less about this match-up.

That's why I never voted, would have though the first poll was sufficient

I also wonder how many people

a) voted Sawyer because XY
b) voted Sawyer because they believed Sawyer would win
c) voted Draw because they don't care
d) voted Draw because they believed they're equal
e) voted Tyson just to spite the 'XYers'
f) voted Tyson because they believed Tyson would win

There was a whole anime vs thread for this although looking back just a few pages it's once again smogonfrog season so eh
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Even the poll is pretty much a consensus draw if you look at the votes lol. Without that draw option, two of those goes to T; the alts are disregarded; and stuff like the below poster who doesn't even remember T, or CMB who says Tyson wins if Sawyer doesn't get prep...and you get a clear draw.

And users like snorlax512 and Ash-Pikachu who would've surely voted for Sawyer haven't logged in on this site for quite some time.

Keep reaching, mate.:)
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Tyson wins handily if Sawyer doesn't have any prep beforehand.



What a joke.

And this is why this poll and all these other threads tend to end up with pro-XY fans vs everybody else.



Nobody is overrating Tyson lol. He's not even a super memorable character that would be overrated. You can't seem to accept that half this community expects a league champion to win.



Even the poll is pretty much a consensus draw if you look at the votes lol. Without that draw option, two of those goes to T; the alts are disregarded; and stuff like the below poster who doesn't even remember T, or CMB who says Tyson wins if Sawyer doesn't get prep...and you get a clear draw.

Right with those awesome battle strats that he clearly has.... oh wait (best thing he did was neutralize Pikachu's electirc attacks).

If you're going to label every viewpoint vastly different from your own as a "joke" don't be surprised if your views get dismissed by others without proper consideration.

You're kidding right? If you average out that list of mine on the series/saga thread then XY(Z) would be below DP and even AG for me. I'm not even particularly a fan of Sawyer as a character but I'm not going to let my bias cloud the fact that he did become a strong trainer (as unrealistic as that was) by the end of a series (and if we're using "hype" like with Tyson then I can say that Sawyer's definitely special since I highly doubt that a Champion would bother to mentor every random trainer that asked him and Steven himself admits to being a very busy man so he wouldn't needlessly waste his time).

League winner = better than everyone else that year which doesn't guarantee any particular strength lvl. He's just barely above HL Ash as far as I'm concerned.

If you're seriously going with this alt theory then I've got to wonder if you, XB and LT are also alts :p... Right and then there are arguments in favor of Tyson because "true trainers can be strong without ME" (even if that's the case which would honestly contradict the point of ME it doesn't justify excluding the power of ME when assessing the battle) so some people from both sides don't exactly have good reasons for their pick. You still haven't told me what CMB's argument was (or do you now adhere to him as some kind of authority lol).

Dude Sawyer won decisively (even if PAD's consensus is that the battle would be close). deal with it or give a concrete argument for how Tyson would win instead of falling back on the vague power lvl of League Conference Champion (and if you believe Tyson wins handily if there's no prep time then you need to properly justify why Sawyer's strats aren't more generally applicable instead of just presuming it to be a matter of fact because bias due to Sawyer's strength progression).

I just made this thread to clear up some of the confusion from last year, and I've achieved that :).
 
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Genaller

Silver Soul
I wonder if people's opinions would change if the battle with Tyson had XY level animation.

I wonder if People's opinions of Sawyer would have changed if Tomioka wrote his league battle :).
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Right with those awesome battle strats that he clearly has.... oh wait (best thing he did was neutralize Pikachu's electirc attacks).

-.- Remind me, how many "awesome battle strats" did Alain or E4s display? Between Detect with Sceptile, Sandstorm-into-Rollout with Donphan, and Electric-type neutralization with Puss in Boots, pretty sure Tyson has shown good enough strategies.

If you're going to label every viewpoint vastly different from your own as a "joke" don't be surprised if your views get dismissed by others without proper consideration.

How is Mega Sceptile winning 6-1?

Because it gave A-G a good fight? Okay, it had faced him before, had type-advantage, and was literally designed to hard-counter A-G...it better have given a good fight or it's just awful otherwise. "B-but Frenzy Plant control!" Cool, Sceptile Detect avoids the vines; Donphan Sandstorm blinds and/or Rollouts on the vines; Metagross' entire move pool; Puss in Boots cuts them down.

Because it wrecked Tierno? Hardly an impressive trainer, but even still, (Mega) Sceptile was given the most conveniently advantageous match-ups.

Literally no other feats to its name. But somehow it can 6-1 Tyson. Or, another way to put it, you're saying Mega Sceptile can defeat Glalie (with all of its sheer power), Swellow (the speed juggernaut), and Corphish, Torkoal, and Grovyle.

There's nothing to support this blatant overrating. Between this and "BW is mirror verse", you're just making your usual reasonable self look bad.

and if we're using "hype" like with Tyson

Tyson was a league champion of a tough league - that's not "hype", that's fact.

He's just barely above HL Ash as far as I'm concerned.

Who would give also do well against Sawyer.

If you're seriously going with this alt theory then I've got to wonder if you, XB and LT are also alts :p... You still haven't told me what CMB's argument was (or do you now adhere to him as some kind of authority lol).Dude Sawyer won decisively (even if PAD's consensus is that the battle would be close). deal with it

Um, right, selective ignorance.

I just made this thread to clear up some of the confusion from last year, and I've achieved that :).

Good job, you made the third version of a thread that nobody really cares about. And got basically the same results.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
-.- Remind me, how many "awesome battle strats" did Alain or E4s display? Between Detect with Sceptile, Sandstorm-into-Rollout with Donphan, and Electric-type neutralization with Puss in Boots, pretty sure Tyson has shown good enough strategies.



How is Mega Sceptile winning 6-1?

Because it gave A-G a good fight? Okay, it had faced him before, had type-advantage, and was literally designed to hard-counter A-G...it better have given a good fight or it's just awful otherwise. "B-but Frenzy Plant control!" Cool, Sceptile Detect avoids the vines; Donphan Sandstorm blinds and/or Rollouts on the vines; Metagross' entire move pool; Puss in Boots cuts them down.

Because it wrecked Tierno? Hardly an impressive trainer, but even still, (Mega) Sceptile was given the most conveniently advantageous match-ups.

Literally no other feats to its name. But somehow it can 6-1 Tyson. Or, another way to put it, you're saying Mega Sceptile can defeat Glalie (with all of its sheer power), Swellow (the speed juggernaut), and Corphish, Torkoal, and Grovyle.

There's nothing to support this blatant overrating. Between this and "BW is mirror verse", you're just making your usual reasonable self look bad.



Tyson was a league champion of a tough league - that's not "hype", that's fact.



Who would give also do well against Sawyer.



Um, right, selective ignorance.



Good job, you made the third version of a thread that nobody really cares about. And got basically the same results.

I still haven't gotten your argument for how Tyson beats Sawyer.

Eh Tierno would be Barry lvl as far as I'm concerned; make of it what you will.

Considering where I place A-G, he would outright solo the Hoenn League including HL Ash and Tyson. Even if you think the claim itself is absurd, you can't say that the "implication" (formal definition) is (Champion Ace Pokémon should be more than capable of sweeping trainers like Tyson and HL Ash). Given how well MS did yeah I think it coule trade even half with Tyson's team (now look who's using selective ignorance since that 6-1 only happens under a very special case). It really depends on whether you accept the threshold argument (after a certain amount the difference between 2 Pokémon is large enough such that the weaker Pokémon is no longer capable of effectively dealing damage to the stronger Pokémon).

Alright here's the difference; it is clear that there are certain minimum standards (that are likely very high) for being an E4 (this is supported by how powerfully they've been "booked" in the anime) which is why E4 lvl is a very respectable benchmark. On the other hand while there would also be a minimum standard for league trainers (since they did beat 8 GLs and presumably GLs also have certain minimum standards), that minimum standard is simply much lower (even after Ash broke the TOP 10 in leagues, he still stood basically no chance against the E4 in AG and DP) so sorry but being "the best amongst the league trainers that year" is far too vague to actually discern a minimum standard for. By feats Tyson is barely above the HL team and the Peak Hoenn team should be significantly above the HL team (Peakachu's later feats, the disparity between Groyvle's and Sceptile's FB performances and of course Torkoal who went from borderline trash to a very respectable Pokémon), so no I don't think he's all that great (at least when compared to Ash's stronger Peak teams).

Also as for "tough" well the HL had quantity though it's clear that the SL (and the Sinnoh region in general) had the comparative best aggregate quality of trainer.

Well there definitely is support; the issue is how convincing is it when placed in a conductive argument for a given indivdual (yes for me and no for you). ...I'll just PM you about the BW thing later...

And yet 33 people bothered to vote (more than last time surprisingly and I know that at least a few of the people from last time haven't voted) Matter of fact aren't you one of them? You do realize what the appropriate word for this is right? Eh 17-12-4 > 15-13-1 (and now there's no more confusion unlike with last year) so I'd say the thread achieved its point :).
 

Navin

MALDREAD
I still haven't gotten your argument for how Tyson beats Sawyer.

Neither have you for the opposite? As others in this thread, and prior threads, have stated: Tyson has the better team, while Sawyer has the better ace.


the "implication" (formal definition) is (Champion Ace Pokémon should be more than capable of sweeping trainers like Tyson and HL Ash).

No offense, but the fact that you would put Mega Sceptile anywhere near "Champion Ace Pokemon" is worthy of:

[IMG300]https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif[/IMG300]

And yet 33 people bothered to vote (more than last time surprisingly and I know that at least a few of the people from last time haven't voted) Matter of fact aren't you one of them? You do realize what the appropriate word for this is right? Eh 17-12-4 > 15-13-1 (and now there's no more confusion unlike with last year) so I'd say the thread achieved its point :).

Don't play dumb. Take away the alts, the 1 vote from a poster who voted based on Sawyer's voice(?)/looks(?), a&C and UNinja who voted "Draw" but admitted Tyson edges out, and CMB who says T would win in non-prep condition, and what do you know, the thread achieved no point. Can't believe you needed that explained.
 
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Genaller

Silver Soul
Neither have you for the opposite? As others in this thread, and prior threads, have stated: Tyson has the better team, while Sawyer has the better ace.




No offense, but the fact that you would put Mega Sceptile anywhere near "Champion Ace Pokemon" is worthy of:

[IMG300]https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif[/IMG300]



Don't play dumb. Take away the alts, the 1 vote (from a deleted post in this thread) from a poster who voted based on Sawyer's voice(?)/looks(?), a&C and UNinja who voted "Draw" but admitted Tyson edges out, and CMB who says T would win in non-prep condition, and what do you know, the thread achieved no point. Can't believe you needed that explained.

Tyson barely has the better "other team" (at best a moderately healthy Metagross + Mewoth by the time Sceptile comes out) while Sawyer has a more than decisively better Ace. I've described how I think the actual matchups would play out; try doing the same.

It's in the E4 Base Ace spectrum. If that's "close" then so be it.

Yeah for that last para you deserve this:

[IMG300]https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif[/IMG300].

Where the heck did you get this idea of alts from? Oh yeah while we're at it why don't we remove the vote of the guy who voted Tyson because "true trainers don't need Megas" whatever that means. Yeah but at the end of the day they voted Draw because they did have reasonable doubt as far as they were concerned. Also xinfernape would have likely voted Sawyer if there was no draw option. Sure let's also consider Ash-Pikachu and Snorlax512 who would have definitely voted Sawyer if they weren't inactive. Well if CMB thinks Sawyer wins with prep and Tyson does without, then at best his true vote becomes a draw probably. So nah the thread achieved its purpose (even if the aggregate view is something like Sawyer goes 5-4-1 against Tyson in 10 battles) and you just can't accept that you lost and now you can't even cite a comparatively recent thread relative to this one with contradictory results in order to invalidate it :p.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
t's in the E4 Base Ace spectrum. If that's "close" then so be it.

FFS what has Sceptile done to be "E4 Base Ace spectrum"?

Where the heck did you get this idea of alts from?

You clearly haven't been here long enough.

Oh yeah while we're at it why don't we remove the vote of the guy who voted Tyson because "true trainers don't need Megas" whatever that means. Yeah but at the end of the day they voted Draw because they did have reasonable doubt as far as they were concerned. Also xinfernape would have likely voted Sawyer if there was no draw option. Sure let's also consider Ash-Pikachu and Snorlax512 who would have definitely voted Sawyer if they weren't inactive. Well if CMB thinks Sawyer wins with prep and Tyson does without, then at best his true vote becomes a draw probably. So nah the thread achieved its purpose (even if the aggregate view is something like Sawyer goes 5-4-1 against Tyson in 10 battles) and you just can't accept that you lost and now you can't even cite a comparatively recent thread relative to this one with contradictory results in order to invalidate it :p.

Keep digging yourself in a bigger hole. Notice how I call out something (alts, poster admitting he voted for non-battling reasons + admitting he didn't remember T) versus you ('I don't like what he says'). Yeah, they picked "Draw" because it was there and it would be close (which I agree with), but they also admitted who would edge out. Sure, and I can name a dozen people from over the years, before you even arrived, who'd vote the same way as I did. It's so obvious, because it's the case in other threads and polls, how one group in PAD tends to think versus the rest. But sure, tell yourself you "won" if that keeps you happy.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
FFS what has Sceptile done to be "E4 Base Ace spectrum"?



You clearly haven't been here long enough.



Keep digging yourself in a bigger hole. Notice how I call out something (alts, poster admitting he voted for non-battling reasons + admitting he didn't remember T) versus you ('I don't like what he says'). Yeah, they picked "Draw" because it was there and it would be close (which I agree with), but they also admitted who would edge out. Sure, and I can name a dozen people from over the years, before you even arrived, who'd vote the same way as I did. It's so obvious, because it's the case in other threads and polls, how one group in PAD tends to think versus the rest. But sure, tell yourself you "won" if that keeps you happy.

Well obviously not in Base only in Mega form. Sawyer has got to be worth something if an actual Champion thinks he's worth mentoring.

Okay enlighten me about the the great alt issues of Serebii past

For a guy who acts like he "doesn't care" you seem to care an awful lot about coping with the results of this poll in order to save your view of this match-up. Sorry but "doesn't have Mega and was still good therefore wins by default" is a bad argument irrespective of who you are. They picked "draw" even though they thought Tyson edged out because they considered their margin of error to be significant enough that they couldn't commit to 1 side or another. The bias here is that you're only considering how votes were unfairly given in favor of Sawyer and not the other way around. In a hypothetical 10 match simulation the trainers would presumably gain more information on each other as they continued to battle. I mean we both know that this and every other poll in PAD is meaningless in a technical sense and yet you still take issue with these results saying that Sawyer merely takes it 5-4-1 out of 10 battles against Tyson which btw is already absurdly close. Anyway if anyway ever cites this poll in the future no one can counter with that Sawyer vs HL Ash poll anymore since the 2 are nearly a year apart and hence this poll is relatively more indicative of current opinion. My goal is complete :).

EDIT Okay what would the result of a 10 match simulation be for you?
 
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345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
To clarify Navin's(Maldread's) confusion:

Mega Charizard X: Above E4 Mega ace level=Above Base Champion ace level

Ash-Greninja: Base Champion ace level

Mega Sceptile: Upper E4 Base ace level

MCX would feel tingles from any of Tyson's Pokemon's attacks, A-G definitively 6-0's Tyson and Mega Sceptile sweeps at least 3-4 of Tyson's best Pokemon.
 
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Genaller

Silver Soul
To clarify Navin's(Maldread's) confusion:

Mega Charizard X: Above E4 Mega ace level=Above Base Champion ace level

Ash-Greninja: Base Champion ace level

Mega Sceptile: Upper E4 Base ace level

MCX would feel tingles from any of Tyson's Pokemon's attacks, A-G definitively 6-0's Tyson and Mega Sceptile sweeps at least 3-4 of Tyson's best Pokemon.

In a nutshell yeah. I think the point of this poll has been made so we should all move on.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
In a nutshell yeah. I think the point of this poll has been made so we should all move on.

Pretty much. And it's also very much clear who is winning this poll.
 
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