SB Stallteam, built around Celebi

[Alzi]

Forretress is ment to switch alot to keep light screening and toxic spiking and to rapid spin. Just test it out and you will have an idea of what i mean. But you don't have to if you don't feel you need a wish passer. And celebi wants heal bell because if they status you with poisen or burn then it will be harder for you to stall.

 

[Incarnati0n]

Don't see how team is built around Celebi.

In any case 236 HP/ 216 Def/ 32 Spd/ 24 SDef for Celebi.

it's called reading. I need max HP and Def to survive CBtar Pursuit with enough to spare to kill it.

and how is this team not built around Celebi? Resists for every weak, Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock support for Leech Seed switching, Light Screen support, switchins for its counters.

Forretress is ment to switch alot to keep light screening and toxic spiking and to rapid spin. Just test it out and you will have an idea of what i mean. But you don't have to if you don't feel you need a wish passer. And celebi wants heal bell because if they status you with poisen or burn then it will be harder for you to stall

You might have a point about the switching for Light Screen, though I've used this team a lot on SB and never had a problem with Forretress' HP. Howerver, I don't see space for a wishpasser. If you have another solution, please tell me.
When Celebi gets statused, I abuse Natural Cure and switch out. Heal Bell might be nice, but Celebi has gaint '4 moveslot syndrome' problems.

I agree with Alzi, Sandstorm (Hippowdon) would be a nice addition since 4 are immune and Spiritomb(Rest and Leftovers) and Celebi (Leech Seed, Recover and Leftovers) can easly heal the damage.

You have a point there.. I'd have to switch something for Hippowdon that way. Gliscor could be switched; Hippowdon has Stealth Rock, Ice Fang and a recovery move too, but I'm afraid Hera will rip me apart that way. Opinions?

 

[Danbaru's]

it's called reading. I need max HP and Def to survive CBtar Pursuit with enough to spare to kill it.

and how is this team not built around Celebi? Resists for every weak, Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock support for Leech Seed switching, Light Screen support, switchins for its counters.

For every purpose stated, the aforementioned spread does. You outrun all TTar and can even dump a few spare into SAtk if you're paranoid.

As for Celebi being core or not, I'll let it drop since you're the thread owner and you obviously know best.

Modest Heatran. ScarfHeracross isn't even an issue nowadays. Drop the speed down so it just outspeeds Dugtrio. Timid isn't nearly enough power as Heatran would like, especially when it's not boosted at all.

EDIT: As for Hippowdon/Heracross issue, as long as you keep switching Spiritomb in on predicted Close Combats, the sandstorm and hazards will wear it(Heracross) down pretty quick. Be wary, since it has Guts activated. SDHera will kill a thing or two, but then again it's SDHera, so you can just disregard that.

 

[Incarnati0n]

For every purpose stated, the aforementioned spread does. You outrun all TTar and can even dump a few spare into SAtk if you're paranoid.
really? I'll check it out a bit.

As for Celebi being core or not, I'll let it drop since you're the thread owner and you obviously know best.
lol. k

Modest Heatran. ScarfHeracross isn't even an issue nowadays. Drop the speed down so it just outspeeds Dugtrio. Timid isn't nearly enough power as Heatran would like, especially when it's not boosted at all.
It's not really scarfhera, it's more the things that outspeed scarfhera, like agiligross and other scarfers. I never had any problems with lack of power on heatran.

EDIT: As for Hippowdon/Heracross issue, as long as you keep switching Spiritomb in on predicted Close Combats, the sandstorm and hazards will wear it(Heracross) down pretty quick. Be wary, since it has Guts activated. SDHera will kill a thing or two, but then again it's SDHera, so you can just disregard that.
But what about megahorn? STABbed, Choice Banded and pumped up with Guts, I don't think Heatran can switch in more then once. Still, I'll think about adding the hippo to my team.

comments in bold. Also, I was thinking of a move for Celebi that can defeat grassers. Aerial Ace comes to mind, but an unSTABbed 60 base move isn't exactly threathening, and grassers are quite rare.

 

[magnemiteZ]

Being too speed anal is just pointless - you can go on forever and ever outspeeding things you don't need to outspeed, but it doesn't change the fact that they don't need to be outsped in the first place and that it is a waste of time.
Heatran only needs to outrun Dugtrio AT THE MOST with a scarf. Anything else is wasting it's base 130 SAtk and pointless.

You're the kind who uses Jolly Scarf Heracross as well TO OUTRUN THEM OTHER SCARFERS LIKE PORYGONZ AND ADAMANT SCARF HERACROSS.

Though I don't expect you to even acknowledge this as advice, and disregard it as some noob telling you you're wrong when actually you're of course right, and win all your wifi battles against everyone you face making you the ultimate trainer.


You also still don't understand, that by definition, this isn't a proper stall team, as was actually pointed out by previous posters, that you again completely ignored, and tried to convince yourself that you were once again correct.

Physical sweeper. Rule #1 of stalling: always have something to clean up the mess.

That is also something you've made up that is complete and utter bollocks.

I also don't need to tell you that you're Special Pokémon weak, as I'm sure you'll have some situational explanation as to why you don't have a proper counter to the likes of the most popular and common Pokémon in the game, also that I'm wrong and HP Ice Heatran is a substantial counter to that mentioned.

I could continue, but I can't really be bothered.

 

[Incarnati0n]

Being too speed anal is just pointless - you can go on forever and ever outspeeding things you don't need to outspeed, but it doesn't change the fact that they don't need to be outsped in the first place and that it is a waste of time.
Heatran only needs to outrun Dugtrio AT THE MOST with a scarf. Anything else is wasting it's base 130 SAtk and pointless.

You're the kind who uses Jolly Scarf Heracross as well TO OUTRUN THEM OTHER SCARFERS LIKE PORYGONZ AND ADAMANT SCARF HERACROSS.
I wouldn't. But outspeeding agiligross after the agility and OHKOing it is nice. Also, I don't see the problem of outspeeding some other scarfers.

Though I don't expect you to even acknowledge this as advice, and disregard it as some noob telling you you're wrong when actually you're of course right, and win all your wifi battles against everyone you face making you the ultimate trainer.
not exactly my words, but I'm flattered you see mee as the ultimate trainer. Also, this is a Shoddybattle team, I don't have the time to breed for wifi.

You also still don't understand, that by definition, this isn't a proper stall team, as was actually pointed out by previous posters, that you again completely ignored, and tried to convince yourself that you were once again correct.

That is also something you've made up that is complete and utter bollocks.
Then explain to me why this isn't a stall team. And I didn't make up the cleen-up part thingy, really.

I also don't need to tell you that you're Special Pokémon weak, as I'm sure you'll have some situational explanation as to why you don't have a proper counter to the likes of the most popular and common Pokémon in the game, also that I'm wrong and HP Ice Heatran is a substantial counter to that mentioned.
I know I have a special weak, excpecially against Nasty Plotters like Azelf, and Specsmence. However, I never see specsmence on SB anymore. You're right about Azelf though.

I could continue, but I can't really be bothered.
Too bad, I alsways enjoy constructive criticism.

Don't start flaming other people when you're in you period, please. It's not our foult, it's mother nature. You'll get my thread locked, and I don't want that.

 

[magnemiteZ]

I wouldn't. But outspeeding agiligross after the agility and OHKOing it is nice. Also, I don't see the problem of outspeeding some other scarfers.

You really don't understand whatsoever.
Outrunning things when the plus does not match or outweigh the negative means it is obviously not worth the effort in the first place. In this case; being situational and needless where the additional speed will only help a handful of times will not outweigh the amount of power lost when using Timid over Modest.

Let us do a few pointless calculations to emphasize this:

A "standard" Smogon listed [I know lol] Cresselia recieves 37.80% - 44.50% from a Fire Blast coming from a Timid Scarf Heatran.
Whereas, the same Cresselia will take 41.63% - 48.80% from a Modest one.
With Stealth Rock up, this is the difference between a 2 and 3HKO.

With a Timid Nature, Gengar has a chance of surviving a Fire Blast from Heatran. Be it a small one, a chance nonetheless. Modest of course completely nulls this.

The same goes for Alakazam.

A perfectly standard 252/252 Tyranitar will only take 39.18% - 45.91% from a Timid Earth Power, and considering the fact that you do not have Spikes anywhere on your team, there is no chance for a 2HKO.
Whereas, the same Tyranitar, taking the same attack will take 42.69% - 50.29%, and with Stealth Rock down, with your perfectly formulated Gliscor lead who loses to almost every other lead out there, this has a substantial chance to 2HKO it.

Weezing will only take 79.34% - 93.11% from a Timid Fire Blast.
And 86.83% - 102.10% from Modest.
Again with SR in play, Modest versions will OHKO it almost every single time.

Spiritomb with 252 HP / 216 SDef will only take 46.05% - 54.28% from a Timid Fire Blast. This is happily a 2HKO with Leftovers recovery, meaning -4 Fire Blast's at least!
Whereas if you run Modest, you're guaranteed to 2HKO.

Timid versions also suffer from possibly not OHKOing standard Azelf and then eating a Hidden Power [Ground]. Even though Azelf would die after, due to it's most common hold item being Life Orb, respectably, you'll still be killed by the revenge attack.

Dragonite who are running more bulky spreads (180 HP / 176 Atk / 152 Spd) will take 84.51% - 99.46% from a Timid HP Ice. So when you come in on a Dragon Dance, and assuming Stealth Rock isn't in play, you don't have a chance of OHKOing, where on the other hand (this is getting boring now) Modest ones will almost always OHKO.

yes, so I've done the whole pointless calculations thing that proves that this set is better than another set to sway you into understanding why you're acting retarded, so, er, basically you can't argue against the facts!

not exactly my words, but I'm flattered you see mee as the ultimate trainer. Also, this is a Shoddybattle team, I don't have the time to breed for wifi.

mee r ultimate trainer!
So I hear pretty inadequate knowledge of something is enough to give you a bigger head than ever these days.

Then explain to me why this isn't a stall team. And I didn't make up the cleen-up part thingy, really.

A strict definition of a stall team is something I actually wrote about in my guide that I don't think that many people even know exists/have read on this site;

Stall Teams
Teams that are often misunderstood. Most famous Stall team of the 4th Generation is Obi's one. Not a favourite team of mine, but that gives you a fair enough idea to how they are made and what they do.
Always based around Secondary Damage, which can be achieved by laying down Spikes and Stealth Rock, Sandstorm/Hail Damage, and Toxic/Toxic Spikes (less so with burns as in the long run, that doesn't deal as much damage).
The idea is to have as many Pokémon covered in your team as possible, as many times as possible (eliminating the chances of being caught off by a random Critical Hit or Freeze), so you can just focus on forcing them out more that straight up killing them. Forcing them out obviously causes grief for the opponent as they have to suffer more secondary Damage.
Things that are utterly essential for these sorts of teams are; Spikes, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes (usually all), one/more Pokémon with Toxic to hit Flyers that avoid your Toxic Spikes, Sandstorm/Hail to eliminate Leftovers recovery and assist in hurting Choice/Life Orb/any other non Leftovers Pokémon (Hail less so), Phazer(s) to force more Secondary Damage, as much recovery as possible (Wish is always advised on at least one Pokémon) to keep your Pokémon alive, a Ghost (to block Rapid Spin) - Dusknoir and Spiritomb being the 2 most popular choices as they are the most Defence orientated, as well as a selection of Pokémon that genuinely work very well together countering as much of the OU Metagame as possible.
Some teams can have one Pokémon to clear up the mess that has been made by the secondary Damage during the match. This role usually falls to Tyranitar or another something with a Stat upping move who's rather fast.

I did of course mention the cleaner upper Pokémon on the end, though their role is definitely not essential, and examples usually reside in things like Counter/Dragon Dance Tyranitar, VERY defencive Dragon Dancing Salamence (a 3rd gen favourite), VERY defencive Swords Dance/Substitute/Dragon Claw/Earthquake Garchomp, defencive Gyarados, or another Pokémon that will have more than just the role of sweeping on the team. They could be there to resist a fair few things on top of clearing up the mess that the secondary damage has inflicted.
In the case of your team, you are lacking vital components of a stall team. The main one being substantial defence. This alone makes your team not a stall team, but a pretty standard team with a slight basis around Celebi without all that much thought put into it with an "owner" who really needs to stop the "bigheaddedness" and listen to some sodding advice.

I know I have a special weak, excpecially against Nasty Plotters like Azelf, and Specsmence. However, I never see specsmence on SB anymore. You're right about Azelf though.

More reasoning for me to assume that this isn't very well thought out, and not a particularly well put together "stall team". If you don't have as many of the main threats covered as possible, you're not going to last 5 minutes in competitive battling with a team built to stall and outlast your opponents, LET ALONE when using a completely standard team - like this pretty much is.
Saying you never see Specs Salamence is not reason enough to not bother accommodating a counter for it.

Too bad, I alsways enjoy constructive criticism.

More like, you enjoy completely disregarding constructive criticism and general rates.

Don't start flaming other people when you're in you period, please. It's not our foult, it's mother nature. You'll get my thread locked, and I don't want that.

YOU FAIL TO CONSTRUCTION AN SENTENCE.

Though I actually genuinely laughed at that comment! Really, I did!
I really fucking hate people who're arrogant when they have no reason to be - it just makes it that much more insulting when one has to receive some pathetic, "lol-worthy", ill-educated comment from said person.


All snideness aside, I hope this genuinely cleared some little bits up.

 

[Danbaru's]

.__________.

I can't believe Mag actually bothered to respond. No sarcasm intended.

@Thread owner: On the subject on Heracross/Hippowdon. Look at your team. If I were a Heracross, I'd fire off Close Combats at everything not named Celebi and (naturally!) Spiritomb. This means that Spiritomb switches in, wastes Heracross's turn and Heracross switches out. Toxic Spikes + Stealth Rock + Spikes + Sandstorm = not a long-lasting Heracross. So, in fact, even with Gliscor gone:

THERE IS, AS A MATTER OF FACT, NOT MUCH OF A HERACROSS WEAK.

Try to understand that.

 

[magnemiteZ]

Aye, agreed that I've probably shot myself in the foot, but I really really hate it when people are stupid and or wrong without even realising they are being stupid and or wrong.

I have more patience than people think I do, as well.

 

[Incarnati0n]

Ah, thank you for the heatran stuff. After all those calculations, I see that you are right, and I wil change my heatran into a modest one.

Excuse me that English isn't my native language.

Also, while looking at Danbaru's new reply, it seems I ****** him off, too. And really, I'm surprised. Maybe it's just my typing style or something like that. Of course, my reply to mag was in fact a bit flamey.

Even after your rant about bigheaddedness, not being a stallteam and not built around Celebi properly, I still think this is a good team.

In conclusion: Heatran will be changed into Modest and I'll swap Gliscor for hippowdon. I'll probably make a complete new RMT too.

 

[Danbaru's]

In conclusion: Heatran will be changed into Modest and I'll swap Gliscor for hippowdon. I'll probably make a complete new RMT too.

This is just two pages so it's alright. Modify your first post like most people do, else forgetful people like me tend to lose track of the advice they've given.

 

[indianunit02]

I think everyone here needs to take a chill pill lol.

I know you rarely use explosion but in the case your fighting a blissey i would still give Heatran a -def boosting nature. mild (+sp. atk, def) is in my opinion a better nature because it keeps your attack stat at bay (even though granted you have less survivability against physical sweepers your have 2 other physical walls to back you up).

 

[Incarnati0n]

I've relooked the whole thing, and decided to make two teams: one a real stall team, and the other one this semi stall thingy. This Celebi based team or however you want to call it will stay here to be rated, and the other team will become a completely new RMT, because I'm swapping 3 pokémon.