Schrödinger’s Rapist: or women are scared, weak creatures and men are evil rapists

[makra mok]

So naturally, when men read this, they say, "Hey! Don't insult our gender!" because that's kinda what Starling does; in a very sloppy way she targets rapists and projects it onto all men, without adequately excusing the higher percentage of men who are not rapists and without explaining that a high percentage of men don't condone rape. It also leaves out the men who are already romantically engaged and the career engaged bachelor men who aren't dating and could care less about what a woman reading a book on the subway would tell them if he interrupted, since he wouldn't. Ideally, the article has a limited audience, because if the reader is not the kind of man that would interrupt a woman from their reading to get their phone number, then they'll probably be perturbed by Starling's rant.

Well, I'm going to ignore that you called it a rant after saying "The article is a good article and for a good cause"....

Do you think rapists are about half and half men and women?

I don't, and neither do any statisitics I have ever seen or heard about. It absolutely is a male issue, and to treat as anything else would only be an obstacle to fixing it. Men are killing, raping and harassing women. It is a problem, even if some men are not killing, raping and harassing women.

As to the men who do it right and not a problem... I'm reminded of Chris Rock. "You're supposed to, you dumb mother****er!"
I appreciate the efforts of those who do get it right and who do take care, but if they also need praise for doing so, then that is a bit worrying.

It's baseline decency, not impressive heroism.

 

[CSolarstorm]

Well, I'm going to ignore that you called it a rant after saying "The article is a good article and for a good cause"....

It is a complex article. Good in some ways and bad in others.

Do you think rapists are about half and half men and women?

Actually, maybe 80% men and 20% women. There are probably an enormous amount more male rapists but there are female rapists.

I don't, and neither do any statisitics I have ever seen or heard about. It absolutely is a male issue, and to treat as anything else would only be an obstacle to fixing it.

Chill. That's not a fact, it's an idea. Maybe the issue would benefit from us looking at it from a different perspective.

Let me share with you my perspective. A while back there was a cover story on Newsweek called The Boy Crisis

Reading this article, a larger problem becomes apparent to me, that our largely rational system is marginalizing "boy" behaviors, consequentially making them outcasts in the long run. I think we need more focus on men's and boy's issues in order to raise more men who aren't going to grow up to be rapists. The more desperate, confused, uncultured, and spiritually unnurtured men we have, the more rapists we have...that's a preventative measure. If we have more clear-headed, healthy, cultured, spiritual, loved and needed men, we have less rapists.

That's not an obstructive perspective, is it?

Men are killing, raping and harassing women. It is a problem, even if some men are not killing, raping and harassing women.

Did I say it wasn't a problem...?

As to the men who do it right and not a problem... I'm reminded of Chris Rock. "You're supposed to, you dumb mother****er!" I appreciate the efforts of those who do get it right and who do take care, but if they also need praise for doing so, then that is a bit worrying. It's baseline decency, not impressive heroism.

But this is a strawman you're attacking. I wasn't asking for praise. I was asking for a balanced portrayal of the man-woman scene, saying it lacked "humanness". This is what I said:

The article is a good article and for a good cause. Nontheless it feels like it's missing something. It's missing a humanness. It delivers a great fight for women but doesn't represent man completely, and when I think of writing truthfully, I think of writing from a human perspective that both genders can relate to.

I said that because I'm a writer, and writers often write from a unigender standpoint so their audience isn't titled to one gender or the other.

 

[makra mok]

Actually, maybe 80% men and 20% women. There are probably an enormous amount more male rapists but there are female rapists.

That's interesting. Do you have a source for those figures? I'd be very interested to learn more about female rapists, as it's something I haven't heard much about.

Perhaps you could link to some news articles?

 

[CSolarstorm]

That's interesting. Do you have a source for those figures? I'd be very interested to learn more about female rapists, as it's something I haven't heard much about.

Perhaps you could link to some news articles?

Well, I made up the 80-20 ratio on the spot, but I can confirm the existance of female rapists. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96666&page=1

Also, I posted the Newsweek Article The Boy Crisis up there on my last post but it was an edit so you might not have seen it.

Also I've read some Warren Farrell, who claims he was part of the feminist movement until it became biased toward women instead of equality. You can Google him, that's one's facet of my perspective/argument.

I think since men have definate predispositions toward ego and proving things, so it's damaging to blame them for a wide issue; that creates an issue of its own. Politeness is still a good thing to have. While it seems frivolous to do, it might be better to accept that (even when wanting "extra praise") instead of try to crush or yell it out of them, like Chris Rock's method, "You're supposed to do it, mother**er!"

 

[Flaming Lip]

I don't think incidence of female rape is really relevant since its incidence is signifigantly less than even an 80-20 ratio with male rape, and the majority of male rape comes from prison rape and child abuse. http://www.pandys.org/articles/malerape.html

Sunny C, you're right that a lot of violence towards women is enabled by our own culture and its expectations of masculinity. But, you know, if everyone would take the advice of paying attention to social cues and backing off when its clear someone doesn't want to interact with you IT would be a step towards elimanating rape culture.

 

[makra mok]

Reading this article, a larger problem becomes apparent to me, that our largely rational system is marginalizing "boy" behaviors, consequentially making them outcasts in the long run. I think we need more focus on men's and boy's issues in order to raise more men who aren't going to grow up to be rapists. The more desperate, confused, uncultured, and spiritually unnurtured men we have, the more rapists we have...that's a preventative measure. If we have more clear-headed, healthy, cultured, spiritual, loved and needed men, we have less rapists.

That's not an obstructive perspective, is it?

What you say there is great, I reckon. I think Phaedra Starling might agree with much of it.

I wasn't asking for praise. I was asking for a balanced portrayal of the man-woman scene

I'm not sure balance is always helpful. As you rightly say, men could do with being educated from a young age about these issues. I think the thing with making it balanced is that women are already educated about this, often given the responsibility of preventing rape.

I said that because I'm a writer, and writers often write from a unigender standpoint so their audience isn't titled to one gender or the other

I think this article was purposefully aimed at a male audience, and for good reason. Women don't need told this stuff, because they experience it.

 

[CSolarstorm]

I don't think incidence of female rape is really relevant since its incidence is signifigantly less than even an 80-20 ratio with male rape, and the majority of male rape comes from prison rape and child abuse. http://www.pandys.org/articles/malerape.html

I was just trying to explain the beef males might have with this article. JT called it paranoid and many people before it. I thought the article could be unequal in its views of gender. My opinion.

That's partially why I brought up women rapists, and partially makra mok asked me directly if rape is an issue for both genders and I answered truthfully.

Sunny C, you're right that a lot of violence towards women is enabled by our own culture and its expectations of masculinity. But, you know, if everyone would take the advice of paying attention to social cues and backing off when its clear someone doesn't want to interact with you IT would be a step towards elimanating rape culture.

What's rape culture?

Why would you call it a culture? Do you honestly think you can eliminate a culture by spreading advice? Maybe you can assauge it as best. Do you think it would be welcomed an unobtrusive to try and solve the problem by advising or trying to concretely alter what half of the human race does to the other half? Is not the class of the genders bad enough already? If you wanted to "eliminate" this culture, wouldn't you start by the basis of what breeds it, instead of trying to kill it when it's grown and malicious? That's preventative medicine.

 

[Flaming Lip]

What's rape culture?

Why would you call it a culture and why would you want to eliminate a culture? Do you honestly think you can eliminate a culture by spreading advice? Do you think it would be welcomed an unobtrusive to try and solve the problem by advising or trying to concretely alter what half of the human race does to the other half? Is not the class of the genders bad enough already? If you wanted to "eliminate" this culture, wouldn't you start by the basis of what breeds it, instead of trying to kill it when it's grown and malicious? Preventative medicine, that's all I'm saying.

To my understanding, rape culture is basically the aspects of our society that make sexual violence so prevelant. I wasn't trying to dispute your point; i think you're very right that attacking the issue at its source and trying to prevent more boys from growing up with the distorted view of masculinity that leads to sexual violence is really important. But this article is focusing on people who've already been indoctrinated into those ideas. Whether or not 'preventative medication' would be more effective is not so important.

Also, a good video that pretty much sums up the way our culture makes sexual violence so prevelant is Tough Guise. You can find it on youtube, and it has a lot to do with what you're trying to say.

 

[makra mok]

What's rape culture?

Here you go.

JT called it paranoid and many people before it.

Yeah, that is actually a really common reaction to this issue. I've seen it in many threads and comments, and I'm not sure it says much about the specific article.

And really we are talking about behavioral profiling here, based on the arguably sensible position that a person who aggressively ignores social cues in a public place to continue unwanted conversation might be willing to ignore sexual cues in a private place to commit a sex crime.

And women can't win on this one. Because when they are raped, they are blamed for not being paranoid enough about strangers on the street and their possible sexual partners.

I think it is an easy way to dismiss a problem that is very real for one half of the population, and it is especially easy if you are not in that half. I'd be very surprised if most people saying it are not male, as often seems to be the case.

I'd really recommend reading the Metafilter thread, SunnyC. It says a lot of this stuff better than I could hope too, and it's a great read.

 

[CSolarstorm]

Okay, I'll come back to debate this farther after I read the Metafilter thread and finish "Tough Guise" which I'm halfway through. Mens and womens issues is one of my favorite subjects.

First I have to get up take a break from the computer. Before I go though some preliminary questions:

- Tough Guise seems to address a reason for masculine violence, but I strongly doubt men are only violent because of what they see on TV, or that men are necessarily violent because they watch themselves portrayed as so on TV. According to Newsweek, men's brains are wired differently and that is part of their performance rather than the way they are socially conditioned. In other words, masculinity is a real biological trait and not completely a "guise". Some of men's difference from women is biologically and not socially influenced. "Tough Guise" used Columbine as an example; I'll need to also check "Bowling for Columbine" as further perspective.

- "Tough Guise" deals with the media teaching men that violence is a way of earning respect, but it doesn't say much about sexual harassment. Where does rape really fit into the violence category, if the point of rape is sex? Is that a part of the conditioning of men, to be prone to sex and violence, I guess?

- What effects are women getting from watching the same TV? (Because I know women who like to watch the same beat 'em dead rough and tough programming.) Nowadays we have women with big guns too, and have you ever seen those freaky Pink Ranger toys with the six pack and abs? I had one of those when I was little, and it was weird.

 

[GhostAnime]

Wait.. that's rape culture? It's not like rapists communicate and have discussions on how to have non consensual sex with the next person..

I think it is an easy way to dismiss a problem that is very real for one half of the population, and it is especially easy if you are not in that half. I'd be very surprised if most people saying it are not male, as often seems to be the case.

At the same time, a lot of date rape is either usually exaggerated or just plain out lies. I don't have the data on me now, but a good portion of them were hardly 100% true.

And lol @ women not winning court battles. They win the majority of them even if they don't tell the whole truth. They get the upperhand in court the majority of the time, actually.

Anyway, I refer back to my post about how to avoid the situation of being raped in the first place.

 

[Flaming Lip]

At the same time, a lot of date rape is either usually exaggerated or just plain out lies. I don't have the data on me now, but a good portion of them were hardly 100% true.

Maybe, but where's your proof of that? Even if reports of date rape aren't always totally true doesn't change the fact that, woahman, the rapes are still occuring.

And lol @ women not winning court battles. They win the majority of them even if they don't tell the whole truth. They get the upperhand in court the majority of the time, actually.

this is absolute ********. the law is definitely not entirely on the side of women during many court cases. Not when laws in states like Maryland forbid the withdrawl of the consent to sex, or when our culture admonishes and blames women for being raped because of the way they dressed or because of the place they were in.

Anyway, I refer back to my post about how to avoid the situation of being raped in the first place.

Yes, because its absolutely a woman's responsibility to NOT be raped, and not, you know, a guy's responsibilty to not rape.

 

[Grei]

And women can't win on this one. Because when they are raped, they are blamed for not being paranoid enough about strangers on the street and their possible sexual partners.[/B]

Truly, I'm positive this is not how these rape cases are treated. It's common sense for the woman to not be at fault 100% of the time when they are raped. It's not like they asked for it, and it doesn't make sense for them to be blamed for it.

Maybe, but where's your proof of that? Even if reports of date rape aren't always totally true doesn't change the fact that, woahman, the rapes are still occuring.

He says he doesn't have the data on him. His proof isn't with him. : |

And can you reread what you just said?

Even if reports of date rape aren't always totally true doesn't change the fact that, woahman, the rapes are still occuring.

Uhm, I would think that if people were lying about being raped, then that would mean the rape isn't actually happening.

this is absolute ********. the law is definitely not entirely on the side of women during many court cases. Not when laws in states like Maryland forbid the withdrawl of the consent to sex, or when our culture admonishes and blames women for being raped because of the way they dressed or because of the place they were in.

No, it really isn't bullsh*t. Women usually get the benefit of the doubt over men in court cases, even if it doesn't seem like it in a few cases, such as the link you posted. The other half about our culture is entirely opinion-based, because I don't think our culture condemns women for allowing themselves to be raped. Sure, some people may blame women because they were just sleeping somewhere naked or in little clothing or something, maybe because they're drunk, but really--does that automatically mean that they are asking to be raped? Even in those cases, it's debatable if the woman is at fault, because a man could easily cover her up or help her get home or get her dressed or simply leave her alone.

Yes, because its absolutely a woman's responsibility to NOT be raped, and not, you know, a guy's responsibility to not rape.

That is not at all what GhostAnime said. I'd suggest calming the hell down--the sarcasm isn't necessary when you're putting words into someone else's mouth.

 

[CSolarstorm]

Maybe, but where's your proof of that? Even if reports of date rape aren't always totally true doesn't change the fact that, woahman, the rapes are still occuring.

I think Flaming Lip meant even if not all rape cases are true reports, some of them are true reports.

This is absolute ********. the law is definitely not entirely on the side of women during many court cases. Not when laws in states like Maryland forbid the withdrawl of the consent to sex

Chill. That is definately an abuse of patriarchy - moreover it's a sloppy way to legislate. In that court, the woman definitely doesn't have the favor. Maryland isn't everywhere and the U.S. is ideologically split. I think in other states, Grei's right, that women do have the court on their side, thanks to the movement for rape awareness.

Or when our culture admonishes and blames women for being raped because of the way they dressed or because of the place they were in.

Well I'd be hypocritical if I argued that this is the right way to go about reducing rape, because I argued don't blame the victim, blame the attacker in the homosexuality thread and used rape against well-dressed women as an example. -_- Let me eat some crow. I wouldn't put down people who urge women to take precautions, like only walking certain places in certain times, with someone to stay safe, or wearing less revealing clothing to take precaution against getting raped; parents do it for the teenage daughters and Starling advises this too. I wouldn't pin the blame or be hostile toward any rape victim for their own attack, that's wrong.

But if a woman knows these precautions, and doesn't take them out of apathy, and thinks "this can't happen to me", would we blame her if it did? First we'd blame and prosecute the attacker, but after that, do we place any responsibility on her shoulders for preserving her life and dignity, until we achieve such a utopia where there are no rapists and men are all gentleman (or jailed)? Realistically some of the responsibility must belong to her until there are no more rapists.

 

[Flaming Lip]

Chill. That is definately an abuse of patriarchy - moreover it's a sloppy way to legislate. In that court, the woman definitely doesn't have the favor. Maryland isn't everywhere and the U.S. is ideologically split. I think in other states, Grei's right, that women do have the court on their side, thanks to the movement for rape awareness.

Point taken, though i'm still really hesitant to accept that women do have an edge in court proceedings. do you have any links/evidence pointing out this trend?

Well I'd be hypocritical if I argued that this is the right way to go about reducing rape, because I argued don't blame the victim, blame the attacker in the homosexuality thread and used rape against well-dressed women as an example. -_- Let me eat some crow. I wouldn't put down people who urge women to take precautions, like only walking certain places in certain times, with someone to stay safe, or wearing less revealing clothing to take precaution against getting raped; parents do it for the teenage daughters and Starling advises this too. I wouldn't pin the blame or be hostile toward any rape victim for their own attack, that's wrong.

But if a woman knows these precautions, and doesn't take them out of apathy, and thinks "this can't happen to me", would we blame her if it did? First we'd blame and prosecute the attacker, but after that, do we place any responsibility on her shoulders for preserving her life and dignity, until we achieve such a utopia where there are no rapists and men are all gentleman (or jailed)? Realistically some of the responsibility must belong to her until there are no more rapists.

Yeah, i was out of line a little. Sorry. Women DO need to be cautious, I'm in agreement with that, and I was defending what Starling said in the article earlier. However, I don't believe the the choice not to be cautious should be held against the victim. The victim's location and the way they dress only justify rape under the very skewed and messed up reasoning of rapisits. If you hold the victim responsible for their choices, you're only validating that reasoning.

 

[CSolarstorm]

Okay, I watched all of Tough Guise and read Shakesville: Rape Culture 101.

Oversexed versions of men were accepted long before media portrayal...I think there's something inherant about men that makes them more prone to aggression. I think it's testosterone. Tough Guise completely ignores the Nature VS. Nurture debate. Can every man really be a well-learned gentle teddy bear? And can we really prevent men from being violent everywhere, and can all women really stop giving violent, pushy men positive reinforcement, and can we stop all men from being homophobic in order to sign and seal the security of gays and women?

Can we really "eliminate rape culture"? Cause this is all very intelligent, but in the idealistic ivory tower sense. I don't feel so because what you're calling rape culture is a series of biological predispositions that manifest in culture. "Rape culture" is really a case of art imitating life, not the other way around like Tough Guise suggests, IMO. Biologically, heterosexual males have a tendancy to be violently sexual...even after we choose better TV programming and create community programs...because that's just how they are. Is this honestly a problem?

And because McEwan added this addendum at the end of her article:

Rape culture is people objecting to the detritus of the rape culture being called oversensitive, rather than people who perpetuate the rape culture being regarded as not sensitive enough.

...making me feel like if I critisize her definition of rape culture, I am supporting rape culture, and therefore I am supporting rapists someone. Obviously "rape culture" is so emotionally charged it's a very dangerous term, it's got this, "if you're not with us, you're against us" sort of feeling. This is a very bad term, just like terrorism.

I think Tough Guise has the right idea and the movement against rape is sterling, necessary, but social enginnering is an evil in itself, and does more than just marginalizes the "radical militant right", it marginalizes anyone peaceful who disagrees as well...

The dynamic between men and women is too complex to socially pursue a world where all men need to change to be exactly what women want...not all men can be "better men" like Tough Guise suggests. Meanwhile while politically-backed movies like this exist, would anyone endorse a film that says all women need to change to be exactly what men want? Oh wait, they do, and we call it "objectification" and sexism.

That's female chauvanism. That's hypocrisy.

Really, I think the goals of eliminating stalking and rape and harassment and terrorism and radical religion forever is either going to put us all in cubicles or result in partial lobotomies, either or.

Edit: Chill, me.

 

[Jesus-rode-a-cranidos]

i dont know, all them vagina toting gals is right... i mean come on! Every man (and superman) ever born is trying to get at those meat flaps. Have you ever seen Jesus? I mean look at the guy. Mangy, doesn't wear shoes, drinks wine all the time. Praises "the lord". I say all girls should carry around a pokechu just in case...

 

[CSolarstorm]

i dont know, all them vagina toting gals is right... i mean come on! Every man (and superman) ever born is trying to get at those meat flaps. Have you ever seen Jesus? I mean look at the guy. Mangy, doesn't wear shoes, drinks wine all the time. Praises "the lord". I say all girls should carry around a pokechu just in case...

Who are you and why did you make a ghost account to say that? I just reported you.

 

[GhostAnime]

Yes, because its absolutely a woman's responsibility to NOT be raped, and not, you know, a guy's responsibilty to not rape.

The fact is, if you're going to rely on a bad person to not be bad, then you need to avoid bad people. It's as simple as that. I'm not saying that it IS the girl's fault at all. It is just better if they take measures to avoid being put in the scenario. You can't just hope bad people won't do bad things. There is a very slim chance of being raped if you are around a group of people who are trustworthy or aren't drunk around people you don't know.

or when our culture admonishes and blames women for being raped because of the way they dressed or because of the place they were in.

Culture? Are you saying it's a majority thing then?

Point taken, though i'm still really hesitant to accept that women do have an edge in court proceedings. do you have any links/evidence pointing out this trend?

It isn't really something you can find a link for; it's just something I see through experience. In most cases that involve a woman, they just seemed to be trusted with a little bit more confidence. They usually win child custody battles and even date rape battles (how many date rape cases actually blame women?).

 

[Grei]

They usually win child custody battles

This is a big example of the bias towards women in court cases. When it's between the father and the mother getting custody of a child, the mother usually wins.

Okay, I watched all of Tough Guise and read Shakesville: Rape Culture 101.

Oversexed versions of men were accepted long before media portrayal...I think there's something inherant about men that makes them more prone to aggression. I think it's testosterone. Tough Guise completely ignores the Nature VS. Nurture debate. Can every man really be a well-learned gentle teddy bear? And can we really prevent men from being violent everywhere, and can all women really stop giving violent, pushy men positive reinforcement, and can we stop all men from being homophobic in order to sign and seal the security of gays and women?

Can we really "eliminate rape culture"? Cause this is all very intelligent, but in the idealistic ivory tower sense. I don't feel so because what you're calling rape culture is a series of biological predispositions that manifest in culture. "Rape culture" is really a case of art imitating life, not the other way around like Tough Guise suggests, IMO. Biologically, heterosexual males have a tendancy to be violently sexual...even after we choose better TV programming and create community programs...because that's just how they are. Is this honestly a problem?

And because McEwan added this addendum at the end of her article:



...making me feel like if I critisize her definition of rape culture, I am supporting rape culture, and therefore I am supporting rapists someone. Obviously "rape culture" is so emotionally charged it's a very dangerous term, it's got this, "if you're not with us, you're against us" sort of feeling. This is a very bad term, just like terrorism.

I think Tough Guise has the right idea and the movement against rape is sterling, necessary, but social enginnering is an evil in itself, and does more than just marginalizes the "radical militant right", it marginalizes anyone peaceful who disagrees as well...

The dynamic between men and women is too complex to socially pursue a world where all men need to change to be exactly what women want...not all men can be "better men" like Tough Guise suggests. Meanwhile while politically-backed movies like this exist, would anyone endorse a film that says all women need to change to be exactly what men want? Oh wait, they do, and we call it "objectification" and sexism.

That's female chauvinism. That's hypocrisy.

Really, I think the goals of eliminating stalking and rape and harassment and terrorism and radical religion forever is either going to put us all in cubicles or result in partial lobotomies, either or.

Edit: Chill, me.

This was all very well said, especially the last bit. It bugs me, too, that men are being treated unfairly next to women in society and the media. If a man treats a woman poorly, he's a caveman who needs to "get with the times" and stop being so evil. If a woman treats a man poorly, she's confident, and the man is at fault (I mean, why else would a woman treat a man that way?).

This isn't always the case, obviously, but it's the gist of it. The main idea is that women are held on a higher standard because, if they aren't, it's automatically sexism and impeding on woman's rights. God forbid there be equality amongst the two genders.

(Sorry I didn't have much else to add besides restating what you've said. I agree and thought it was well put. Figured I'd say that.)