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Seeing the Forest for the Trees! (924)

ArcaneStar

Village Idiot
Overall, I liked this episode.
While nitpickers will always have their way I can at least appreciate how the writers are trying to upheave the status quo.

Ash vs Serena?
Why does everyone on this thread seem to jump to pointing fingers on the whole Ash-Serena debacle?
Serena and Ash both weren't perfect in this episode and guess what?
IT WAS BEAUTIFUL!
they acted like human beings.

Serena attempted to empathize with Ash even though she didn't quite grasp what the issue was. She took his rebuke and instead of firing back she made her intention to help all that more clear. Also recognize that Serena was indeed responsible for getting Ash out of his mental stupor.

Ash was feeling the frustration of 5 regions worth of failure and realized that he had lost his way somewhere along the journey. Sure perhaps his behavior was uncalled for but how many of us fall into the same situations over and over again because we are human?

Both of them made mistakes and that is the beauty of it.

Snow way out exclusion?
I caught the parallel right away but who cares.
It is important that this happened as opposed to a past episode being referenced.

This revealed WHY Ash wants to become a pokemon trainer.
And it gives much more emotional oomph when you rewatch Snow way out since you realize that Ash was finally experiencing the bond he had been craving for as a trainer and came full circle.

Not enough Pikachu?
This arc was about Ash and Greninja.

overall, since I noted people reacted similarly to Shota vs Ash I just want to point out that it is important to realize that these characters are meant to be portrayed as humans.

What i mean by that is that they are imperfect beings that struggle and make mistakes.

Be aware of character perception before making further arguments based on reactions.

Shota had no way of knowing that Ash was distracted and even then he won that battle by bringing his A game and concentrating on the fight.

Similarly, Serena had no way of knowing exactly what the issue was but made her best intention to help Ash and ultimately she did.

And finally a lot of you rag on Ash for reacting so harshly and failing to recognized that Serena only wanted to help. You only say that because you see the whole picture because it is spoon fed to us as the viewers. Ash was in a highly emotional state and last time i checked most people don't see very logically when in that position.

Instead of becoming like some of the toxic members on this thread.
I for one applaud pokemon for trying something different.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Go back to DP. Paul decisively defeats Ash 6-2 at Lake Acuity. Ash is upset. He goes outside alone to reflect and have some space. What happens? His Pokémon show up, and he gets over it by himself.

I don't know what would have happened if Dawn showed up instead of his Pokémon (Brock holds her back too), but that's what happened in this episode (even if the circumstances of the defeat were different). Maybe Brock predicted correctly that Ash needs to figure it out on his own and Dawn wouldn't have been able to help.
 

ArcaneStar

Village Idiot
Go back to DP. Paul decisively defeats Ash 6-2 at Lake Acuity. Ash is upset. He goes outside alone to reflect and have some space. What happens? His Pokémon show up, and he gets over it by himself.

I don't know what would have happened if Dawn showed up instead of his Pokémon (Brock holds her back too), but that's what happened in this episode (even if the circumstances of the defeat were different). Maybe Brock predicted correctly that Ash needs to figure it out on his own and Dawn wouldn't have been able to help.

Apples to Oranges
What Brock predicted in the end worked out in that particular situation but that cannot be claimed to be the same here.

The fact of the matter is that Serena did indeed snap Ash out of it.

Sometimes there is more than one correct approach.
 

Firemaker

Mammoth Master!
The level of drama and emotion was surprisingly deep. I didn't expect Serena to throw snowballs.
 

Master_Tyrell

Well-Known Member
Woah, such a huge argument here.

Really, both had their faults and there's nothing wrong with that. Ash left to be alone, everyone accepted his request but Ash hadn't return since he left at night. I think it is perfectly normal for a friend to worry when someone leaves in the middle of the night, in a depressed state, to be alone and doesn't return in quite some time. Ash was literally out all night and it was morning and he still hadn't return.

We should also look at Serena. After losing the Tripokalon she realized what she missed was being able to give to people, to help others instead of always being helped. This was a perfect moment for her to be support for Ash, and she was trying to do as Ash had done previously, listen and give advice. Of course, Ash was still not ready for that which resulted in the clash. One had good intentions and the other was not ready for them yet, it clashed but in the end it worked out well.

We shouldn't see things so black and white here. Did Ash reacted too strongly? Sure, but it was an understandable reaction. Did Serena reacted too strongly? Sure, but she felt hurt at the rejection. Not the best reaction but better than hitting him with something hard.

And I can't agree with people saying Serena's outburst in episode 60 to not be justified. ArcaneStar explained it very well already. They might not be the same cases, but don't try to brush off one because you feel the other is more deserving of receiving the sympathy. Both Ash's state in this episode, and Serena's in the 60th episode were natural reactions considering how it had been played out.

Also, if you ask people to look at the bigger picture for Ash's reactions and feeling on this episode, then look at the bigger picture for Serena's reactions and feelings on the 60th episode as well.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
Woah, such a huge argument here.

Really, both had their faults and there's nothing wrong with that. Ash left to be alone, everyone accepted his request but Ash hadn't return since he left at night. I think it is perfectly normal for a friend to worry when someone leaves in the middle of the night, in a depressed state, to be alone and doesn't return in quite some time. Ash was literally out all night and it was morning and he still hadn't return.

We should also look at Serena. After losing the Tripokalon she realized what she missed was being able to give to people, to help others instead of always being helped. This was a perfect moment for her to be support for Ash, and she was trying to do as Ash had done previously, listen and give advice. Of course, Ash was still not ready for that which resulted in the clash. One had good intentions and the other was not ready for them yet, it clashed but in the end it worked out well.

We shouldn't see things so black and white here. Did Ash reacted too strongly? Sure, but it was an understandable reaction. Did Serena reacted too strongly? Sure, but she felt hurt at the rejection. Not the best reaction but better than hitting him with something hard.

And I can't agree with people saying Serena's outburst in episode 60 to not be justified. ArcaneStar explained it very well already. They might not be the same cases, but don't try to brush off one because you feel the other is more deserving of receiving the sympathy. Both Ash's state in this episode, and Serena's in the 60th episode were natural reactions considering how it had been played out.

Also, if you ask people to look at the bigger picture for Ash's reactions and feeling on this episode, then look at the bigger picture for Serena's reactions and feelings on the 60th episode as well.
I'd like to add the way Serena acted when she lashed in in XY64 as well to this. But I agree, I think that that the way it was handled was good and I liked seeing both characters showing their flaws here, particularly Ash since it's been like forever since he acted this way and he felt like a flat character up to this point imo.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
The sad part is we probably won't be getting an episode like this for another half decade, character wise it felt like lightning in a bottle
 

chicorita3

Well-Known Member
Like I said, he didn't need any help and someone pushing to help him does not help matters.

sure let's just forget that serena helped ash out by making him realize that he wasn't himself at the time.

lol that was the whole point of that scene, but I guess you were too busy patronizing ash that you missed it.
 

k6666

Pikachu Fan
The sad part is we probably won't be getting an episode like this for another half decade, character wise it felt like lightning in a bottle

that sad but truth
10/10 because finally i got Ash being human being and love how Ash Serena Thing , and TR being not Annoying :D
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Apples to Oranges
What Brock predicted in the end worked out in that particular situation but that cannot be claimed to be the same here.
The fact of the matter is that Serena did indeed snap Ash out of it.
Sometimes there is more than one correct approach.

What I am saying is that perhaps Brock knew Ash could snap himself out of it eventually, and that if Dawn went, she might have gotten yelled at or brushed aside, which would have made her feel bad.


lol that was the whole point of that scene, but I guess you were too busy patronizing ash that you missed it.

Eh...
 

Red Pheonix

Well-Known Member
In regards to Ash snaping out of himself given some time,he spent a WHOLE night to snap out himself but he didn't.Sometimes,people need a little jolt to get themselves in track again.Just sometimes, not always.
 

Alexander18

Dragon Pokemon fan
sure let's just forget that serena helped ash out by making him realize that he wasn't himself at the time.

lol that was the whole point of that scene, but I guess you were too busy patronizing ash that you missed it.

I wasn't patronizing Ash, I was supporting him and my posts proved that. Anyway, at least some good came out of it with Ash and Greninja mastering the Ash-Greninja form.
 

Cresselia92

SM Ash = New Ash
The sad part is we probably won't be getting an episode like this for another half decade, character wise it felt like lightning in a bottle

Probably not, but who knows. The writers may surprise us. If all, I welcome the fact that Ash got some actual character depth, which he missed since the AG days. People can only hope that the anime staff will finally decide to develop him a bit more. Not in a single go, of course, but some slow and steady development would be ideal, as well as more mentions of his past. At least this would flesh Ash out and make him more likeable and "human". Probably we will take a while to get another episode like this, but I still hope there will be more down the road.
 
Those parts with little Ash and the Pokéball throwback scene were really heartwarming. One of the most memorable episodes of this series, for sure.

I wouldn't mind if something similar to that XY&Z remix ends up being used as the theme for the Champion of the Alola region.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
Really, this is the first time in a long time I've felt Ash as something more than bacteria responding to stimuli. He actually feels like he has more than just one set of emotions and we got to see some backstory so that's a major plus.
 

Pokemon Fan

Knuckle Trainer
Ash vs Serena?
Why does everyone on this thread seem to jump to pointing fingers on the whole Ash-Serena debacle?
Serena and Ash both weren't perfect in this episode and guess what?
IT WAS BEAUTIFUL!
they acted like human beings.
Indeed, I can only imagine the backlash if the original series aired when this forum was up and people reacted to it. Recall back then not only did our main group often yell at and insult each other, they would even resort to physical violence (usually comedic admittedly). Let's not get upset over Ash not being a perfectly nice guy for a brief time.

Ash was feeling the frustration of 5 regions worth of failure and realized that he had lost his way somewhere along the journey.
This. Too many people here are complaining over how upset Ash is over a couple losses, not realizing that the losses are merely a symptom of the real problem Ash had.

Basically Ash was NOT upset over losing. He can handle losing, he's had a LOT of experience at it. Losing is something he can cope with so long as he believes he and his pokemon did their best. What has been bothering him is the increasing realization that something was off about HIM and it was effecting how well he used his pokemon.

And its not like Ash is the only character this kind of thing has happened to before. Lots of trainers fall victim to the desire to win overcoming the central reason they want to become masters and it throwing them off as a result.
 

K.N.

Well-Known Member
I liked this episode and all, but I don't really buy how this episode somehow ties Ash's character together in some way. It's not like this is the first time they've done this sort of story with Ash. Ash vs Brawly was basically the same idea too. He lost his cool and had to retrain.

I mean, not that big a deal they'd recycle something after like 12 years, I'll take that over nothing. Would've been nice to get something totally new, but that's not going to happen with this show.
 

Janovy

Banned
Ash vs Brawly was basically the same idea too. He lost his cool and had to retrain.
Not really. The whole issue was that Ash got too obsessed with winning and stopped acting like his old self. Ash had to remember why he became a trainer in the first place to regain his mojo. Ash became a trainer because he loves Pokemon, not because he wants to be the strongest trainer and beat and prove himself to everyone.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Not really. The whole issue was that Ash got too obsessed with winning and stopped acting like his old self. Ash had to remember why he became a trainer in the first place to regain his mojo. Ash became a trainer because he loves Pokemon, not because he wants to be the strongest trainer and beat and prove himself to everyone.

Also everything regarding Ash Greninja and the fainting is also nothing like Brawly
 

Mrs. Oreo

Banned
I liked seeing the flashbacks of when Ash was younger and how he was surrounded by wild pokemon in the woods. The Greninja and Ash bonding scenes during the snowstorm weren't exactly my favourites, tho I liked the reference to Lumiose city and the league in the end. :3
 
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