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Seeing the Forest for the Trees! (924)

Mr. Reloaded

Cause a pirate is free
He snapped at his friend who only wanted to help him out. Please lose the rose-tinted glasses because believe it or not Ash isn't always perfect.

Nah fam.

Ash is immune to all sorts of criticism, Serena was wrong to have back talked the boy the way he did to her. I mean how dare she.

#Ashboyz4life
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
The argument felt moderated and within their characters' ranges while still developing them a little for me. Ash lashed out and got out of line, but not to an uncharacteristically horrid way. If the translations are correct, he just wanted to be left alone and got very antsy about it. If he had blamed Serena for his losses or something like that, it might have taken points off his likability but it was just him moping over his responsibilities which he blamed himself over.

Serena lashed out but it was in a pretty light hearted way. She threw snowballs at him, not gave him a vicious slap to the face or anything. Not to mention you could tell she caved in quickly. The instant snow started to fall she went to make amends and it was obvious before Ash thanked her she was in the middle of saying "Satoshi, I'm sorry."

I do hope none of this gets screwed up in the dub (though one of it's better points is that the dialogue is mostly loyal outside the corny one liners).

And I thought TR's involvement was fun. Like showing Ash's flawed side, this episode brought back another element that felt lacking in XY, namely the trio's respectful rivalry towards Pikachu. They aren't happy capturing him unless he's their very worthy adversary. Them walking off goading him and then returning for a second round almost seemed like they were trying to coach his abilities back out of him.
 

Toxic Drapion

Well-Known Member
Surprised at the amount of people complaining about Ash snapping. I liked it. We haven't seen Ash angry like that in a long time, and it makes him more of a character as Maldread said. We don't need morally perfect characters everywhere as we see in today's cartoons. No one's perfect, and looking back, this behaviour is already part of Ash's character. As shown when Ash lost to Ritchie and wanted to be alone. He even snapped at Misty iirc. It is also shown when he told his friends to "shut up" after losing to Brawly back in Hoenn. I like that Ash is showing more emotion again.
 

LizardonX

Banned
Serena can't really criticize ash because her loss was out of her control. The entire showcase competition is nothing more than a popularity contest and in the end there was no way in the distortion world she was gonna beat Aria. Ash's loss was due to his own failing as a trainer so he had a point there. though I'm sure shippers wanted him to instantly proclaim his love for serena on the spot for trying to empathize.
 

shac

Well-Known Member
If Ash doesn't show any emotion (AKA BW Ash), then he gets criticesd. If he does show emotion, he gets criticised as well. There is no winning.

This IMO was one of the best character development episode in the series. Ash got a bit sidetracked and was way too focused on winning battles than caring for his pokemon and all that. He lost sight of why he is decided to do all these in the first place. That caused him to get unfocused a lost a few battles. When he realised that he got a bit depressed. he needed time to think and clear his head. Serena, being a good friend, thought she would try to help. However Ash was not ready for her help. So when she went to cheer him up, he snapped. So then she got frustrated and left.

These are all very acceptable natural emotional responses. And I absolutely loved how the writers decided to create an episode to focus on this. It was beautifully done.
In the end, Ash got back on track. Greninja realised that the reason he wants to get stronger is the same reason that Ash wants to get stronger - to help others.
Since now they are on the same page, it let them sync effortlessly. And i couldnt be more hyped to see how they utilise this newly mastered power.


And also a bit sad thinking of the inevitable Oak'ing of greninja when XYZ ends.
 

Sonicheroesfan1

Crystal Veteran
Semi-offtopic: Are people seriously still bashing on Serena's reason for crying on ep. 60? C'mon guys, imagine you haven't been able to settle for anything in your life, imagine everything you did was going to be great, buy you decided to give up and brush it off, imagine if you were crying all the time while giving up. Then imagine if you finally found your "dream", imagine you think THIS is the one, and then because of a stupid mistake that shouldn't even have happened, you couldn't even pass to the round you were supposed to show off, the one you have been practicing the most for. That impotence, that frustration because of something unfair, and to have to hold it in until the next day, ...someone like Serena back then OBVIOUSLY was going to burst.

Now, on topic, sure, it's not THAT comparable, but she was trying to make him open up to her so she could help him, ahem, like she did before, and he snapped at her, which was, yes, kinda rude. I'm not justifying his behavior, because honestly, it wasn't called for, and yeah, he was going through that tough phase of impotence as well (there's a parallel), but still, guys, he could've worded that better.
Also I think Serena didn't take it too personally, but she was actually angry that he didn't act like he always did, so she did that to make him wake up. Which worked later. That's why he thanked her for opening his eyes.
 

riceant

Well-Known Member
No its not. Its even more damning because of the fact that he has nearly 6 regions worth of Gym experience yet he reacts to a loss by acting like a brat. You're telling me that in all that time he still has not learnt how to take a loss? Because that makes it look even worse on his part.

Lol at people complaining that Ash getting depressed over a few losses is "bad writing" because he's been a perennial loser every year and should be used to it.
Do you guys even live life? Everyone is used to setbacks. But why do people get super mad every once in a while? Not every setback is the same situation, even if it's the same setback that happened 9001 times before.
In this case Ash, for the first time in since - forever? - lost 2 battles in a row while being supposedly the "superior" trainer. In the past he lost many times, but usually he was the underdog. He lost to his underdog rival, that's like worse than losing to Paul who was on equal experience level.
And plus this isn't all about losing, it's a lot about him believing to have failed Greninja, this self-doubt being imposed actually because of Olympia's visions - they created great expectations where there previously were not.

Consider a parallel in real life (for those of you who don't watch American basketball, I'm sure you can find similar situations). Lebron James back in 2011 had never won a championship, he was a perennial "loser" and he was used to it. Why, then, all of a sudden, when Miami lost the 2011 finals, was he so much more depressed than he ever was back in Cleveland? Because expectations...

It's not only Ash's own expectations, but his whole gang expects him to achieve greatness, same with Olympia, Sawyer, and now Diantha too. How would you feel if you were expected to reach historical heights by everyone around you but you couldn't even beat a scrub gym leader or a rookie rival?

This episode was beautifully written, and as "real" emotionally as the Pokemon franchise has ever been.
 
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Ririka

Fairy Trainer
If Ash doesn't show any emotion (AKA BW Ash), then he gets criticesd. If he does show emotion, he gets criticised as well. There is no winning.

I think it's a bit different case here. If Ash doesn't show emotion, then it's the writer's fault and they get criticized. This time, however, Ash shows a humanly reaction, which is the writer succeed in delivering that character development, so in a way the writing for Ash' is well developed this time. However, that still leaves Ash behaviour as some sort of rude no matter what anyone put it, doesn't mean he should be criticized for that though.

As for the whole debacle itself, i think exactly when people says "leave me alone" is where you can't leave them alone too long. There are people who get much more depressed if they stay without connection for too long. Sure there are moment when you're sad (like when one of your relatives passed away), but you can't drag it, you have to move on and make some connection to other people to get over it sooner. Serena simply does this out of her concern for Ash, and while Ash' reaction is a bit rude it's really just in a heat of the moment, which then later after the snowballs he doesn't question why Serena does that or get even more mad at her, instead he took the mature route and ponders over it to finally snap some sense into him.

That, is a good development, at least for this episode alone. Then again, XY's Ash is at his most mature behaviour most of the time, compared to his previous saga.
 

Minios

Smoke weed everyday
Ok, I never thought this episode would get so many arguments. *grab popcorn*

Firstly, about Serena crying abou her first loss. Seriously? She was uncertain about her goal in the first episode! She was so sick of Rhyhorn racing that she left on her journey and finally had found her new passion. She tried so hard to convince her mom and got her debut in the Tripokalon then lost in the first round with a stupid mistake. Any human being would be shattered in that situation.

Secondly, about "Snow way out". Ash lost because he strayed from his trainer way, so it would be fitting if they show why Ash wanted to become a trainer. I don't see any purpose of showing "snow way out" since it was all about his bond with his Pokemon. And we are getting deeper into Ash's lore, people! I would prefer 1 Ash's flashback to 10 Snow way out episodes. They are clearly fleshing out Ash and making him more enjoyable as a character. This is a huge mark for the Pokemon anime history : why did Ash become a pokemon trainer?

Lastly, about the snowball scene. Both of them had their reasons to act that way! Any good friend relationships would have these kinds of arguments. Ash was angry because he hasn't been himself recently, this is the crucial evidence that indicate Ash is still a freaking human, not an anime cliche character that we have been complaining about him, especially in XY where people called him Gary Sue. And Serena, her lover friend was going out the whole night and still feeling depressed. It would be natural for her to be angry. Remember that those snowballs are the reason why Ash became his cheerful self again. Without Serena, I doubt Ash's depression would be gone any soon.
 
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Ririka

Fairy Trainer
Ash would have gotten over his depression by himself. He doesn't need anyone to help with that.

Nah dude, the show make it better by giving Ash a relatable traits, that he's also a human who made err on times, rather than being an omnipotent protagonist who can do everything on his own. At times, you need someone to smack some sense into you, that'd deliver a better message for the viewers, and plot-wise it's also a better character depth.

Though seeing all your response from earlier, at this point it seems like you're just trolling us with all these "Ash is superior" mindset thing. No offense.
 

Alexander18

Dragon Pokemon fan
Nah dude, the show make it better by giving Ash a relatable traits, that he's also a human who made err on times, rather than being an omnipotent protagonist who can do everything on his own. At times, you need someone to smack some sense into you, that'd deliver a better message for the viewers, and plot-wise it's also a better character depth.

Though seeing all your response from earlier, at this point it seems like you're just trolling us with all these "Ash is superior" mindset thing. No offense.

I'm not. I think Ash can work things out for himself that all. At least he manage to perfect the Ash-Greninja form.
 

WaterShuriken

"I..I..Iron Tail, Pikachu."
Okay, can I say I loved this episode? I mean where do I start...



Pikachu. I really enjoyed how they did not forget about him in this episode. He respected Ash's wishes to be alone in the previous episode, and in this, he stayed behind and played support. The way that he sent out Talonflame, Hawlucha, and Noivern and they all decided to train while Ash was away was great. The side plot he had with Team Rocket was heartwarming. The trio really do care about Pikachu in the fact that they did not want to capture it in its weak mental state. It does feel like an Eggman and Sonic relationship (in some canons) at this point. They just antagonize because it is protocol, but they have a soft spot and kinda cheer on the protagonist.



Serena. Okay, I loved this interaction. Serena scolded Ash good. She is following her own words in what she told Palermo. Pre-Performer Serena wouldn't have had the courage to do what she did. While she was close to confessing her feelings for him, I'm glad she didn't. This wasn't the time. Ash didn't need s lovey confession, he needed someone to put him in his place. I felt so proud of her and I am so glad the snowball scene was not spoiled for me in any way. Ash had forgotten what he told Serena after her Master Class loss, and I'm glad her words knocked some sense into him. What I appreciated the most at the end was the fact that he thanked her when they met up again. Throughout the series, we've seen them both inspire each other with words of encouragement and I do think the friendship side of the relationship has solidified more.



Can I just cut something in. I just found it adorable how Hawlucha and Noivern were trying to protect Bonnie, Dedenne, and Squishy from the blizzard. The Pokémon are also part of the Kalos family.



Squishy. Okay, Squishy has grown to care for these kids so much. It helped them find shelter and then helped Greninja find Ash. At the end of the episode, when it tried to speak to Blue Core, it appears like it mentioned Ash and Greninja to it, perhaps citing how humans and Pokémon can coexist and help each other grow. However, I would need to wait until Sushi works her magic.



Greninja. It is very clear I like Greninja, but this episode also made it clear how much Greninja loves Ash. It seems to have blamed itself for letting Ash down. Greninja was also heavily upset about its losses to Sawyer and Wulfric as much as Ash was. This is what it is going to make it hard to see Greninja stay behind at the end of the series. The thing that consoles me is that Froakie was bullied for being so battle focused instead of socializing with the fellow Froakie. However when it will be at Oak's Lab, it will be embraced just how it is. Ash's Pokémon have a variety of personalities, and I can see it making good friends with Charizard, Sceptile, and Infernape. Great sparring buddies where they will constantly push each other despite Ash not being there.



Ash. I am happy, they didn't reuse Snow Way Out's scenes for this and instead gave us a new look at Ash's past experiences before becoming a trainer. Ash has a gift in that he can befriend almost any Pokémon and that he considers them all friends. His genuine love for Pokémon is a big part of his character and the driving force behind Ash-Greninja. What this episode wanted to show was that his love isn't just exclusive to Pokémon he catches, it envelops all. It seems this has reminded him the reason why he became a Pokémon Trainer.



Which leads to him reevaluating his approach towards Greninja and himself. He seems to want to start once again and reignite his passion. Which his passion is what leads to the transformation being unlocked. This time, it wasn't to show off, or beat an opponent for some ego boost. This was to save a Pokémon from likely death. The way they synchronized showed about in sync they are now mentally. This was also a fairly dangerous thing for them to do as well as Greninja could have gotten hurt, and since it was in Ash mode, Ash would have also felt the pain. Both went down safely and they did it together.



They are now ready to face whatever comes their way, together. Their feelings are now synchronized. They are Protean Mold Breakers... whatever that means.


Oh and one last thing. Ash... should have just thrown a Pokéball at the Spewpa it saved...




The only non-Legendary Kalos Flying-type to keep flying away from joining his team. Haha.
 

Red and Blue

Well-Known Member
Definitely ranking up as one of the best XY episodes

So is this the first time Serena ever got angry at Ash? It was actually quite refreshing
 

Red Pheonix

Well-Known Member
Oh well,at least we can agree that Ash and Serena's argument had more depth than we imagined.
 
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MattySadler

Well-Known Member
Good episode. Bonnie's little outfit is adorable.
 

Minios

Smoke weed everyday
I'm not. I think Ash can work things out for himself that all. At least he manage to perfect the Ash-Greninja form.

He managed to perfect it because a certain someone woke him up at the start of the episode... That was when he started to take things slowly as usual again.
 

Ozonne

Active Member
I'm glad that Serena argued right back after Ash lashed out at her because it was a pleasant surprise. I fully expected her to run away crying and make Ash feel even worse about everything :p It's even better that she gave Ash the push he needed, but I need to ask...?

Seriously, I get the feeling that it was unintentional on Serena's part? For me, it felt like she was throwing a tantrum because Ash wasn't behaving how she wanted him to... I'm really glad it helped him, but I can't help but think that Serena lost her temper at that point. She probably didn't sleep well from being so worried, Ash isn't 'returning to normal', her attempt to help him only serves to get her snapped at, and furthermore, Ash is completely dismissing her sense of devastation at her own loss...

I think in Ash's perspective, he understands that his friend is well-intentioned, but he felt there was no way she could help. She wasn't taking the hint that he wanted to be alone, and kept pushing. And to top it off, she starts to talk about her experience and she's completely missing the point of why he was upset. It's not just the loss, but it's more so about what the loss represented - that he lost because he felt like he was failing his pokemon. Serena says she 'understands' but she doesn't, and that was upsetting for him.

Sorry that this is so long, but for me this was completely understandable from both sides...It's completely human and realistic, and I think the fight was done really well. I just get a little sad looking at posts where people are praising Serena and saying along the lines that Ash is the one completely in the wrong... when what it seems what really happened is that their differences as people (values, personalities, etc) were shown really starkly here, and their characters clashed.
 
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Ririka

Fairy Trainer
Sorry that this is so long, but for me this was completely understandable from both sides...It's completely human and realistic, and I think the fight was done really well. I just get a little sad looking at posts where people are praising Serena and saying along the lines that Ash is the one completely in the wrong... when what it seems what really happened is that their differences as people (values, personalities, etc) were shown really starkly here, and their characters clashed.

True, and moreover in the end Ash also admit that what he does is wrong, and he lost some of his composure because of that. This means Ash think whatever he did to Serena at that moment is wrong, regardless of it's a justifiable response or not. In actuality, Ash also shares same values with Serena's at that moment, but he's just being clouded by his emotion that their value seems clashed (when actually it shouldn't).
 
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