September 15th: SM139 - He's Born! The Alolan League Winner!!

[TheWanderingMist]

My only problem with this is where do they go from here? How do they deal with the problem? Is it going to be magically fixed by the time ash battles masked royal or is the same thing going to happen there and then the problem will be ignored because melmetal is oaked? It's kinda late to be introducing something like this without the solution either being rushed or ignored

It could be fixed when Guzzlord attacks. The Meltan within Melmetal will have to learn to coordinate to defeat it, and there's far more on the line there than just losing to Gladion. And it won't be rushed because 99 of the Meltan are already in sync thanks to Clefable, Ash's is the only one that will have to learn.

Im actually hoping ash loses here I rather him win a league in a series that is more like AG DP and XYZ...although it would have been nice for him to become the FIRST champion of a league

I think this is the region Ash has actually been shown training the most. It's basically the main opener for the entirety of Alola, whereas in other regions they're usually just walking around until they bump into the CotD.

 

[Doppelgänger]

I think this is the region Ash has actually been shown training the most. It's basically the main opener for the entirety of Alola, whereas in other regions they're usually just walking around until they bump into the CotD.

This very reason is why I think XY's rivals were poorly written.

Because we got to follow Sawyer, Tierno, Trevor and Alain from the beginning of their journey to the end, it makes their growth look stupid and absurd. Especially Sawyer, who went from a Bagon/Treecko at the Laverre Gym to a complete, fully evolved team by the Pokemon League.

With new characters introduced at the beginning of or during the league, you get the sense that the Pokemon World is wider than Ash's reference point. We don't know how those trainers got to be powerful or their experience level, and that lends to the grand scale the Pokemon League tries to convey.

Having all the rivals leave Lumiose City at close to the same time, all of them be rookies and all of them do well in the Pokemon League (not to mention obtain Mega Evolution) makes the achievement seem hollow and placing predetermined. Ash also had a fully evolved team, with training arcs as if to imply that his Pokemon were receiving special treatment. But they end up jobbing at the Pokemon League to literal wild cards, especially Talonflame and Noivern.

Even if we never got to see Gladion training directly, we were basically told he was training and sometimes shown him in the wilderness with his Pokemon. So the anime was very good at not just chronicling Ash's progress, but that of the other competitors as well, sans Guzma before his flashbacks.

 

[Leonhart]

Im actually hoping ash loses here I rather him win a league in a series that is more like AG DP and XYZ...although it would have been nice for him to become the FIRST champion of a league

I've always thought that even if he won the Alola League and became Champion, he would surrender the title when he leaves the region. Of course now that there's a chance that he might be written out of the series or get rebooted in November, the outcome of this League hardly matters to me that much anymore.

 

[Dephender]

I'm slightly confused, we've seen people win leagues before and they just end up as league champions.

"League winner". The "League champion" term has never been used before now. That's part of the issue really, they're introducing this "new" term that's mostly just an old term apparently repurposed.

Okay feel free to correct me at any point here, but here's how I know it to work.

Presumably if Ash does become champion, they'll create a story where Ash might move onto the Galar region OR whatever becomes of Ash with the new series. Could be stuck in Alola defending his title

No, see, there's the issue: They've never said anything about the champion of the Alola League becoming the Champion of the Alola region. And that's the problem with this entire "league champion" thing - they just toss the term around and never really explain what it's supposed to mean, and half the time they just shorten it to "champion" too.

 

[Xuxuba]

we got to follow Sawyer, Tierno, Trevor and Alain from the beginning of their journey to the end, it makes their growth look stupid and absurd. Especially Sawyer, who went from a Bagon/Treecko at the Laverre Gym to a complete, fully evolved team by the Pokemon League.

Alain's growth wasn't really absurd. He already was quite strong by the time we met him.

Tierno's growth is even less absurd, since he was surpassed by both Ash and Sawyer. Yes, he fully evolved his starter, but even OS Ash was able to do that. And don't even bother mentioning his other pokémon, since half of them reach their final stage through items lol

Trevor wasn't treated as this unstoppable force either. He got crushed by Alain. I guess you could complain that he had a mega, but having a mega doesn't automatically make you a great battler. It just means he took the time to bond with his starter and that he somehow found a mega stone too.

I do understand why you might think Sawyer's growth was absurd, but i honestly didn't mind that much, because he is probably one of the most determined characters in the series, he was always trying to improve and learn something new. He took a more consistent approach to his training and it payed off. And at the very least he wasn't a complete newbie like Trip, he already had earned some gym badges before and traveled two regions.

 

[AznKei]

Because we got to follow Sawyer, Tierno, Trevor and Alain from the beginning of their journey to the end, it makes their growth look stupid and absurd. Especially Sawyer, who went from a Bagon/Treecko at the Laverre Gym to a complete, fully evolved team by the Pokemon League.

With new characters introduced at the beginning of or during the league, you get the sense that the Pokemon World is wider than Ash's reference point. We don't know how those trainers got to be powerful or their experience level, and that lends to the grand scale the Pokemon League tries to convey.

Hmm, it's like that in the mainstream games too, much worse if you speedrunned them. And the writers wanted them to be obstacles of Ash progressions instead of having him breezing through unrivaled and have a random Dream crusher stopping him like Tobias.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

Alain's growth wasn't really absurd. He already was quite strong by the time we met him.

Tierno's growth is even less absurd, since he was surpassed by both Ash and Tierno. Yes, he fully evolved his starter, but even OS Ash was able to do that. And don't even bother mentioning his other pokémon, since half of them reach their final stage through items lol

Trevor wasn't treated as this unstoppable force either. He got crushed by Alain. I guess you could complain that he had a mega, but having a mega doesn't automatically make you a great battler. It just means he took the time to bond with his starter and that he somehow found a mega stone too.

I do understand why you might think Sawyer's growth was absurd, but i honestly didn't mind that much, because he is probably one of the most determined characters in the series, he was always trying to improve and learn something new. He took a more consistent approach to his training and it payed off. And at the very least he wasn't a complete newbie like Trip, he already had earned some gym battles before and traveled two regions.

Tierno surpassed Tierno? When?

 

[Xuxuba]

Tierno surpassed Tierno? When?

lol typo

i meant he was surpassed by Sawyer

 

[andrewscott48209]

Tierno surpassed Tierno? When?

I think he meant Sawyer.

 

[dman_dustin]

"League winner". The "League champion" term has never been used before now. That's part of the issue really, they're introducing this "new" term that's mostly just an old term apparently repurposed.

No, see, there's the issue: They've never said anything about the champion of the Alola League becoming the Champion of the Alola region. And that's the problem with this entire "league champion" thing - they just toss the term around and never really explain what it's supposed to mean, and half the time they just shorten it to "champion" too.

Wait what does the anime refer to the Elite Four and Champion, because technically the Pokemon league is the Elite Four Championship in the games. So what did the anime refer to it as differently.

While the tournaments are referred to as conferences (at least in the English Dub), because the conference is the FIRST step of the Pokemon league (after getting badges of course)

In the anime the Pokemon league encompasses they gyms battles, the conference tournament where the winner of THAT would challenge the Elite Four and Champion, it's under the same umbrella of "League"

I'm not entirely sure why you aren't considering that the Alola League Champion is the SAME exact thing as an Alola Region Champion. When every other generation the characters were the SAME exact thing.

Sure, maybe not in Japanese, maybe there are some nuances in the way the Japanese described the Elite Four and Champion that doesn't relate to "LEAGUE" but I don't know that makes sense, when the Champion of a region is the final challenge for a Pokemon league.

They're not two entirely different things since in the games, they've primarily been solely ABOUT getting gym badges, battling the Elite four and the Champion. The anime just adds another step to that process.

Because there's NEVER been a champion in ANY media that I can think of where the Champion of a region was different than the technical Champion of a regional's league. To clarify I mean a champion of a region that's UNrelated to gym badges, and or the Elite Four, because Alola doesn't HAVE gym badges, but it does have an Elite Four. Like Cynthia being the champion of Sinnoh isn't different than Cynthia being the champion of the Sinnoh League since you have to look at it from how its presented. Cynthia is the final challenge to overcome, both in games and in the anime, for the SINNOH region. How could the champion of a league or a champion of a region be any different when LOGICALLY as its been presented they are one in the same as being the top challenge for the regional "league/challenge"

Unless you really think the Alola League Champion ONLY applies to the conference tournament, which sure, fine, I guess that makes sense. A tournament should end with the title of "Champion" because "Conference Winner" doesn't seem to hold that esteem.

HOWEVER as I should point out YET again. Why wouldn't the winner of this Manalo Conference not be referred to as the champion of the Alola region? As I said repeatedly, in the anime, there's no where to go from here. Other regions had an elite four, and Champion to take on. Again there is NOTHING here in ALOLA like that. So how could Ash or Gladion not be THE top trainer of the Alola region which in other regions it's been the Champion.

At the moment the winner of this conference has plateau'd at the top. It doesn't get any higher than this. There is no other challenger. Especially with Masked Royal being an Exhibition Match and all which I believe means "Unofficial."

But whatever, I don't know the intentions of the writers, I can only guess based on what has been presented to what is being presented.

 

[Dephender]

Wait what does the anime refer to the Elite Four and Champion, because technically the Pokemon league is the Elite Four Championship in the games. So what did the anime refer to it as differently.

They're called Champions of the x region. SM, at the moment is talking about a "champion of the Alola League", which is hardly the same thing.

While the tournaments are referred to as conferences (at least in the English Dub), because the conference is the FIRST step of the Pokemon league (after getting badges of course)

In the anime the Pokemon league encompasses they gyms battles, the conference tournament where the winner of THAT would challenge the Elite Four and Champion, it's under the same umbrella of "League"

This (and most of the rest of your post) is all incorrect, and if you're getting this from the dub, I think we tracked down the source of the confusion here.
"Conference" is just a dumb translation of "taikai", which should've been translated as "tournament". There's no stuff that "comes after the tournament" that's also part of the league. Is the dub actually claiming that?

Unless you really think the Alola League Champion ONLY applies to the conference tournament, which sure, fine, I guess that makes sense. A tournament should end with the title of "Champion" because "Conference Winner" doesn't seem to hold that esteem.

Ignoring that dumb "conference" term, the issue here is that:
a) The winners of the regional leagues have ALWAYS been referred to as "league winners"
and
b) While you can certainly say it's appropriate to refer to the winner of a tournament as a "champion", the term "Champion" has already been defined as meaning something quite different in the anime.
Also, keep in mind we're talking about the English term "champion" here - the Japanese term used for the winners of the leagues is yuushousha, which CAN certainly be translated as "champion", but it'd be utterly idiotic and confusing to do that when Champion is aalready a term.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

I guess this is the best time to say "don't think too much on logic for this anime."

 

[Dephender]

I guess this is the best time to say "don't think too much on logic for this anime."

It's not really an issue of logic, it's mostly an issue of the anime tossing around and apparently redefining terms, but not really explaining them properly.

In short, though:
1) The winner of the Alola League will apparently be crowned the "champion of the Alola League".
2) This is not a term that has ever been used before in the anime. The winners of the earlier leagues have been referred to as "winners of the x league", and the regional Champions have been referred to as "champions of the x region". Both "league champion" and "regional champion" are frequently shortened to just "champion", which doesn't help matters.
3) It hasn't really been explained what the "champion of the Alola League" title means, or what being crowned this would mean for a person. This is the biggest issue, really.

Apparently the dub has been claiming all sorts of additional nonsense, so if you've watched that, just kinda tune out anything that doesn't agree with the above.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

It's not really an issue of logic, it's mostly an issue of the anime tossing around and apparently redefining terms, but not really explaining them properly.

In short, though:
1) The winner of the Alola League will apparently be crowned the "champion of the Alola League".
2) This is not a term that has ever been used before in the anime. The winners of the earlier leagues have been referred to as "winners of the x league", and the regional Champions have been referred to as "champions of the x region". Both "league champion" and "regional champion" are frequently shortened to just "champion", which doesn't help matters.
3) It hasn't really been explained what the "champion of the Alola League" title means, or what being crowned this would mean for a person. This is the biggest issue, really.

Apparently the dub has been claiming all sorts of additional nonsense, so if you've watched that, just kinda tune it out of any of that doesn't agree with the above.

Oh...

Methinks Alola is the weirdest region of them all, then.

 

[Power Up]

Oh...

Methinks Alola is the weirdest region of them all, then.

Which is why I deem it as irrelevant in the grand scheme of things

 

[dman_dustin]

They're called Champions of the x region. SM, at the moment is talking about a "champion of the Alola League", which is hardly the same thing.



This (and most of the rest of your post) is all incorrect, and if you're getting this from the dub, I think we tracked down the source of the confusion here.
"Conference" is just a dumb translation of "taikai", which should've been translated as "tournament". There's no stuff that "comes after the tournament" that's also part of the league. Is the dub actually claiming that?



Ignoring that dumb "conference" term, the issue here is that:
a) The winners of the regional leagues have ALWAYS been referred to as "league winners"
and
b) While you can certainly say it's appropriate to refer to the winner of a tournament as a "champion", the term "Champion" has already been defined as meaning something quite different in the anime.
Also, keep in mind we're talking about the English term "champion" here - the Japanese term used for the winners of the leagues is yuushousha, which CAN certainly be translated as "champion", but it'd be utterly idiotic and confusing to do that when Champion is aalready a term.

So what you are saying, is that you do not challenge the Elite Four after winning a regional tournament. So Tobias did not earn the right to challenge the Elite Four for winning the Sinnoh League. So what you are saying is the original Japanese anime, COMPLETELY separates collecting badges and the big tournament to the Elite Four and Champion which are now, as I am told something completely different.

And also Lucian lied about how the Elite Four and Champion works in the original, because what he said in the dub is exactly what I've been saying. You win the tournament of the region after collecting badges to earn the right to officially challenge the Elite Four.

I guess either he was lying in the dub and the original.

So to reiterate. What you are saying (having confirming this with what Lucian said in the Buizel episode) and everything mentioned about everything regarding this. The Elite Four and Champion in the anime is different than the eight badge collection quest and the tournament at the end?

 

[Power Up]

So what you are saying, is that you do not challenge the Elite Four after winning a regional tournament. So Tobias did not earn the right to challenge the Elite Four for winning the Sinnoh League. So what you are saying is the original Japanese anime, COMPLETELY separates collecting badges and the big tournament to the Elite Four and Champion which are now, as I am told something completely different.

And also Lucian lied about how the Elite Four and Champion works in the original, because what he said in the dub is exactly what I've been saying. You win the tournament of the region after collecting badges to earn the right to officially challenge the Elite Four.

I guess either he was lying in the dub and the original.

So to reiterate. What you are saying (having confirming this with what Lucian said in the Buizel episode) and everything mentioned about everything regarding this. The Elite Four and Champion in the anime is different than the eight badge collection quest and the tournament at the end?

Why are you using the dub lol? It literally isn’t the canon version of the anime

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

Why are you using the dub lol? It literally isn’t the canon version of the anime

well not tpci's dub at least

Anyways if Ash doesn't win here (and I don't think he'll win), then I can't ever see him winning a league.

 

[Dephender]

So what you are saying, is that you do not challenge the Elite Four after winning a regional tournament. So Tobias did not earn the right to challenge the Elite Four for winning the Sinnoh League. So what you are saying is the original Japanese anime, COMPLETELY separates collecting badges and the big tournament to the Elite Four and Champion which are now, as I am told something completely different.

And also Lucian lied about how the Elite Four and Champion works in the original, because what he said in the dub is exactly what I've been saying. You win the tournament of the region after collecting badges to earn the right to officially challenge the Elite Four.

I guess either he was lying in the dub and the original.

So to reiterate. What you are saying (having confirming this with what Lucian said in the Buizel episode) and everything mentioned about everything regarding this. The Elite Four and Champion in the anime is different than the eight badge collection quest and the tournament at the end?

The Champion League is a separate thing from the regional league, yes. Winning the league means winning the finals. Don't you remember a certain episode titled "Kalos League Victory" that didn't including anyone battling any Elite Four members or Champions?

I guess either he was lying in the dub and the original.

He was mistranslated in the dub. Notoriously so.

 

[Epicocity]

He was mistranslated in the dub. Notoriously so.

So...for clearing things up, what exactly is the Champion League, and what did Lucian say? Curious to know as far as how mangled the translation went.