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September 29th: SM141 - Final Battle! Satoshi VS Kukui!!

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ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
IIRC, Zenigame didn’t get his first official battle win until the Indigo League and it was a blink-and-you-miss-it fight. This is just such an incorrect statement for a Pokemon that has knocked out several ally Pokemon, gym leader Dragon-types, several Queen/King ‘mon, and just took out its final stage and consistently is shown training and working hard despite a sleeping gag lol

Sorry, I’m just over this revisionist history to take a crap on a first stage Pokemon that was developed well and treated well throughout the saga. The sleeping gag affected the battle in 0% ways and Junaiper took a fair amount of damage warranting its defeat and Mukuroh had a quad-resistance and advantage on top of a new move just to beat its opponent that it worked for on screen. I wonder what reception would be toward the birb if it was a first-stage ‘mon who constantly lost, perhaps more complaining?
I was talking about squirtle's overall performance, rowlet didn't beat any gym leader class pokemon ryuki is not an official gym leader and he did beat olivia's nosepass and hala's carbrawler both of them were non aces and its biggest feat was beating hau's decideuye who was still relatively inexperienced. Squirtle on the other hand defeated macy's eletibuzz and quilava, had a in in indigo league, win over drake's onix and had part in weakening dragonite and most importantly beat frontier brain brandon who is close to E4 calibre. I dont see how anyone can even compare rolet with squirtle, kanto series was never good about battles which made his kanto pokemon dull there, if rowlet came in future and get some wins then he could be compared with squirtle but now it is not comparable.
 

Doppelgänger

Superancient Member
I'd be scared of Beast Boost if Kukui actually does have Marshadow.

Noivern jobbed which was justifiable given that it did the bare minimum.
I don't agree with this at all. Noivern, Torterra, and Torkoal are notorious for a reason - they stick out for losing on an overall successful team. Four of the Pokemon Ash use against Cameron were statistically his worst in Unova, but you don't hear individual Pokemon from Unova get singled out as losers when the entire team was more bad than good.

More often than not, late league acquisitions or evolutions get plot armour boosts. Kingler, Glalie, Gible, and Krookodile all fit this mould, and they all excelled in the Pokemon League.

It's expected that Pokemon like Melmetal or Naganadel would do well, especially when you consider they're legendary.
 

Akkipeddi

White Yaksha
Perhaps I should phrase it better. I am not saying the writing for Noivern was good. It indeed did the bare minimum as a Noibat, evolved quickly, and ultimately was a jobber in the league. When I said 'justified that it was a jobber', I meant more from the point that because it did nothing, it wasn't surprising that it jobbed. But even if it wasn't a surprise, no way am I saying it should've been done that way.

My issue with the whole Poipole/Naganadel issue comes from the fact that Poipole did even less than Noibat did, got released (and unlike Goodra or Charizard which were in a known place, Poipole left to another dimension), and yet, is back whilst fully evolved, and is now being hyped up as for this battle, which I find ridiculous. Legendary/UB or not, I don't find this earned at all and that's my issue with it. It basically feels like Noivern being hyped and important for the league despite it doing absolutely nothing, and that's what they are doing with Naganadel.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
Noivern as a noibat did get a full episode where it got to learn to fly and took part in sky relay and in one episode it learned acrobatics, so it definitely did more than poipole did, poipole is similar to ash's gliscor who didn't do anything before evolving other than getting crushed by paul's gliscor. As for naganadel's performance it shouldn't do that much but if it gets one or two wins i wouldn't be surprised, we have got two extremes with ash's pokemon which evolves on one hand there are noivern and torterra which became jobbers after evolving and then there were kingler and glalie who also didn't do much before evolving but became powerhouses in the league for ash, it would be interesting to see which route naganadel and melmetal takes.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Again with the whole “don’t take scans at face value” thing. Satoshi has already been referred to as the same word they use for Shirona/Adele/Daigo/Wataru iirc so he’s the champion for sure and the show hasn’t stated otherwise that this exhibition match with Kukui affects or threatens that.
Really, because I remember during the run-up of the League, @Dephender noted that it was a completely different term, being a Champion of a League rather than the Alola Region. And while scans are, of course, promotional material, this seems like a pretty big detail to mention. Why mention it at all when it's just an exhibition match?

I get you're a huge fan of the series but let's not ignore everything...
 

GarchompChain

Well-Known Member
Really, because I remember during the run-up of the League, @Dephender noted that it was a completely different term, being a Champion of a League rather than the Alola Region. And while scans are, of course, promotional material, this seems like a pretty big detail to mention. Why mention it at all when it's just an exhibition match?

I get you're a huge fan of the series but let's not ignore everything...
Yeah, that 'true champion' line is saying something I think. Ash is the league champion but he won't be considered the regional champion.
 
Really, because I remember during the run-up of the League, @Dephender noted that it was a completely different term, being a Champion of a League rather than the Alola Region. And while scans are, of course, promotional material, this seems like a pretty big detail to mention. Why mention it at all when it's just an exhibition match?
I’m no expert on Japanese but Satoshi is consistently called チャンピオン, only been used as a title for Wataru, Mikuri, Adeku, etc. Due to the fact there is no established E4 and all Satoshi is the reigning Champion just like in the games.

I get you're a huge fan of the series but let's not ignore everything...
It’s not a case of being a “huge fan” of the series as much as it is ignoring blatant facts and lore from the anime and games? It’s commonly known these scans tend to get things off when you compare them to the actual episodes and I was just saying Satoshi already owns the title and all so why would be fighting for the “true Champion” spot in an exhibition match when nothing of the sort has been mentioned? Unless this is a Title Defense fight like ingame.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
I think the true story whether ash is champion of the region of whole alola region like alder, lance and other or just a league champion like tyson, virgil in next 10 days after episode 142, right now it is too confusing since league champions go on to challenge E4 in before regions but in alola there is no established E4 so could it directly make him E4 or even champion.
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
It was already confirmed that Pokefan had got pushed back a week, so instead of coming out this week it's coming out next week.
I wonder if it has to do with promotion of the next anime series? It would make sense to push back to avoid letting all leak early.
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
Noivern as a noibat did get a full episode where it got to learn to fly and took part in sky relay and in one episode it learned acrobatics, so it definitely did more than poipole did, poipole is similar to ash's gliscor who didn't do anything before evolving other than getting crushed by paul's gliscor. As for naganadel's performance it shouldn't do that much but if it gets one or two wins i wouldn't be surprised, we have got two extremes with ash's pokemon which evolves on one hand there are noivern and torterra which became jobbers after evolving and then there were kingler and glalie who also didn't do much before evolving but became powerhouses in the league for ash, it would be interesting to see which route naganadel and melmetal takes.
Honestly, for someone who was a baby not too long ago and just recently learned how to fly, Noivern did quite fine. He was able to knock down Sawyer's Doublade, take down Salamance with him and, even though he lost to Weaville, he still was able to put up a good fight and weaken Weaville despite being at severe disadvantage against Ice Types. It was also nice to see Hawlucha comforting him after he lost.

If anything my real problem is how powerful he was against Zapdos. I know he got a boost after evolving and took Zapdos by surprise, but still...

Regardless, Noivern at least was properly trained by Ash, unlike Poipole, who just hanged around him doing nothing, then disappeared for god knows how many episodes, just to return near the end of the series having received a bunch of boosts off-screen. It felt completely undeserving.
 
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Doppelgänger

Superancient Member
In social situations, or in nature, people use the word "ruler" or "king" to refer to the strongest entity in that environment, even if the "ruler" doesn't make decisions that we'd think of a leader or manager.

King of the Jungle? A lion. Not an actual "king" unless it's The Lion King.

Kukui as the strongest trainer in Alola is something of an unofficial Champion, even if he doesn't have the title. So Ash defeating Kukui, who many perceive to be the strongest, would legitimize him as worthy of the title. It's very similar to how perception of legitimacy limits how much power the Crown practically wields in the UK, even though British monarchs have a lot more absurd powers on paper.

When Kukui announced the Pokemon League, he did so with the backing of all the powerful entities in Alola; the Kahunas and Aether Foundation. That allowed the tournament to be publically recognized as the formal successor to the ceremonial battle atop Mt. Lanakila, the culmination of the Island Pilgrimage. All of that was necessary to sway public perception.

I’m no expert on Japanese but Satoshi is consistently called チャンピオン, only been used as a title for Wataru, Mikuri, Adeku, etc. Due to the fact there is no established E4 and all Satoshi is the reigning Champion just like in the games.
Bulbapedia's article is misleading because it mixes up anime terminology with the game's.

Pokemon Blue:



It says 「ポケモン チャンピオン 」 right there.
In Orange, the winning title is apparently 「名誉トレーナー」 (meiyo trainer)
Also, Drake's title is "Head Leader", indicating he's a Gym Leader, and Orange (while a real league) does not have a Champion.

So Ash is definitely the Alola Champion, but his grip on the title isn't that firm without defeating Kukui.
 

Dephender

Gizakawayusu
Staff member
Moderator
Interestingly this seems to note that Ash isn't Champion yet and is merely a League winner by these standards.
Yeah, that 'true champion' line is saying something I think. Ash is the league champion but he won't be considered the regional champion.
The article doesn't use the word "champion" at all. It uses "ouja" (translated here as "champ", which is not the word "champion", and that's deliberate).

Again with the whole “don’t take scans at face value” thing. Satoshi has already been referred to as the same word they use for Shirona/Adele/Daigo/Wataru iirc so he’s the champion for sure and the show hasn’t stated otherwise that this exhibition match with Kukui affects or threatens that.
Really, because I remember during the run-up of the League, @Dephender noted that it was a completely different term, being a Champion of a League rather than the Alola Region. And while scans are, of course, promotional material, this seems like a pretty big detail to mention. Why mention it at all when it's just an exhibition match?
Yeah. SM has been throwing around the term "Champion of the Alola Region", which is not a term that's ever been used in the series before.
Alan won the Kalos League, but he was referred to as "the winner of the Kalos League", not "the Champion of the Kalos League". Carne is the "the Champion of the Kalos Region", not "the Champion of the Kalos league", because why would she be the champion of a league she didn't even participate in?
Yes, it's confusing and incredibly unnecessary to have these two overly similar terms thrown around like that, that's why it's important to keep the terminology consistent.
And also why it's important to note that this article does not use the word "champion" at all.


In social situations, or in nature, people use the word "ruler" or "king" to refer to the strongest entity in that environment, even if the "ruler" doesn't make decisions that we'd think of a leader or manager.

King of the Jungle? A lion. Not an actual "king" unless it's The Lion King.
That's basically how the word is used here, yeah. Ouja even literally means "king/ruler", and in this context means "the one who's the best at something".

Bulbapedia's article is misleading because it mixes up anime terminology with the game's.
...but so are you in that post. Not to mention that bit you quote from the games say "Pokemon Champion", which is neither "Champion of the x league" NOR "champion of the x region".
(it's also from a game that claims there's only one Pokemon league in the world, that that league consists of four battles in a row against specific trainers, and if you win you're Pokemon Master.)
 
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GarchompChain

Well-Known Member
The article doesn't use the word "champion" at all. It uses "ouja" (translated here as "champ", which is not the word "champion", and that's deliberate).





Yeah. SM has been throwing around the term "Champion of the Alola Region", which is not a term that's ever been used in the series before.
Alan won the Kalos League, but he was referred to as "the winner of the Kalos League", not "the Champion of the Kalos League". Carne is the "the Champion of the Kalos Region", not "the Champion of the Kalos league", because why would she be the champion of a league she didn't even participate in?
Yes, it's confusing and incredibly unnecessary to have these two overly similar terms thrown around like that, that's why it's important to keep the terminology consistent.
And also why it's important to note that this article does not use the word "champion" at all.




That's basically how the word is used here, yeah. Ouja even literally means "king/ruler", and in this context means "the one who's the best at something".



...but so are you in that post. Not to mention that bit you quote from the games say "Pokemon Champion", which is neither "Champion of the x league" NOR "champion of the x region".
(it's also from a game that claims there's only one Pokemon league in the world, that that league consists of four battles in a row against specific trainers, and if you win you're Pokemon Master.)
Thanks for the clarification.
 

TheWanderingMist

Kanae, Keeper of the Gates Emblazoned
The article doesn't use the word "champion" at all. It uses "ouja" (translated here as "champ", which is not the word "champion", and that's deliberate).





Yeah. SM has been throwing around the term "Champion of the Alola Region", which is not a term that's ever been used in the series before.
Alan won the Kalos League, but he was referred to as "the winner of the Kalos League", not "the Champion of the Kalos League". Carne is the "the Champion of the Kalos Region", not "the Champion of the Kalos league", because why would she be the champion of a league she didn't even participate in?
Yes, it's confusing and incredibly unnecessary to have these two overly similar terms thrown around like that, that's why it's important to keep the terminology consistent.
And also why it's important to note that this article does not use the word "champion" at all.




That's basically how the word is used here, yeah. Ouja even literally means "king/ruler", and in this context means "the one who's the best at something".



...but so are you in that post. Not to mention that bit you quote from the games say "Pokemon Champion", which is neither "Champion of the x league" NOR "champion of the x region".
(it's also from a game that claims there's only one Pokemon league in the world, that that league consists of four battles in a row against specific trainers, and if you win you're Pokemon Master.)
Yeah, that is weird. But Alola didn't have a League Champion or a regional Champion before, so I guess Ash counts as both right now? And if he loses to Kukui, he'll probably give the title of Champion of Alola to him while still being the League Champion himself.
 

Lord Godwin

The Lord of Darkness
Are we supposed to get some more episodes pictures prior to Sunday?
 

Dephender

Gizakawayusu
Staff member
Moderator
Yeah, that is weird. But Alola didn't have a League Champion or a regional Champion before, so I guess Ash counts as both right now?
Kalos didn't have a League Champion before, so does Alan count as one?

No, Satoshi is not the Champion of the Alola region, and the show has never implied he is.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
Are we supposed to get some more episodes pictures prior to Sunday?
I think they better reveal all the remaining episodes in one go we only have probably 3-4 episodes left after 142.
 

Lord Godwin

The Lord of Darkness
I think they better reveal all the remaining episodes in one go we only have probably 3-4 episodes left after 142.
I meant episode pictures for 141 as we get some more pictures beyond the trailer every week.
 

Thumbs2

Well-Known Member
Kalos didn't have a League Champion before, so does Alan count as one?

No, Satoshi is not the Champion of the Alola region, and the show has never implied he is.
Wait, what? Was it ever stated the Lumiose conference was the first? They said that with Alola, but I'm pretty sure there were prior Kalos leagues.
 
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