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September 9th: PM2019 124 - The Semifinals III: Valor

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LazySpy

Kimty
Ash just standing there while Dragonite got sucked off by Dream Eater was the equivalent of standing in the middle of a busy street during rush hour. It's not about plot armor or lack thereof, it's about Ash lacking common sense all of a sudden. :rolleyes:

And don't give me that "Dragonite wouldn't wake up in his Pokeball" argument. Yeah like no **** he'd still be asleep in there but there would at least be a chance Dragonite could've woken up while on the field later on if sent back out later. But we'll never see that because Ash ****ed up.
Nice argument but did you consider letting someone beat up a sleeping Pokemon is a tactic in videogames
 

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
Ash doesn’t switch out Dragonite -> “Grrr dumb Ash why wouldn’t you recall a sleeping Pokémon”

Ash switches out Dragonite and uses her later, but she loses because she’s asleep -> “Grr dumb Ash he should’ve tried to wake up Dragonite”

Ash switches out Dragonite and uses her later, and she immediately wakes up -> “Grr dumb Ash is only reaching the finals because of plot armor”

Let’s be honest: The moment Hypnosis was used it was clear that people will start criticizing the battle, no matter which scenario happens.

Edit: Besides, even in the games there is no perfect way to deal with Sleep besides the usage of items. Sometimes it’s better to hope that the Pokémon wakes up, sometimes it’s better to make the switch -> it’s RNG luck really.

Ash refusing to switch out Goodra against Slurpuff and Bisharp are much worse decisions, because it was apparent that his intended tactics are clearly not working. With sleep, it’s really a case of hindsight is 20/20.
 
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LazySpy

Kimty
Ash doesn’t switch out Dragonite -> “Grrr dumb Ash why wouldn’t you recall a sleeping Pokémon”

Ash switches out Dragonite and uses her later, but she loses because she’s asleep -> “Grr dumb Ash he should’ve tried to wake up Dragonite”

Ash switches out Dragonite and uses her later, and she immediately wakes up -> “Grr dumb Ash is only reaching the finals because of plot armor”

Let’s be honest: The moment Hypnosis was used it was clear that people will start criticizing the battle, no matter which scenario happens.
That is true, fandoms will always complain no matter what.
But, they also can be wrong in their complaints.
 

Sceptilee

Well-Known Member
*sigh*

You know what? You win. I give up on this thread.

Have it your way.
This episode was flawless. It was perfect, it was amazing, it was glorious. No issues with it whatsoever.

People who do have problems with this episode should likewise understand that there's nothing to dislike about this episode.
Any criticism you may have is mere nitpicking and childish complaining.

Accept that the episode was a solid 10/10 and move on with your life.
After all, no other opinion will be tolerated.

(Apologies to others for taking up so much of this thread with this waste of time, now you can go back to actually speculating about the episode.)
Honestly, I really loved this episode and I would agree that keeping Dragonite in probably wasn't the best move for Ash. Spiritomb was recovering it's own health after the Draco Meteor and Ash should have ideally switched to another mon, most likely forcing Cynthia to switch as she'd want to keep Spiritomb alive for the Destiny Bond later. He could then bring it back out against, say Roserade, who won't be able to do much back at it or at the very least, Spiritomb would not recover it's health back and perhaps be in range of a Dazzling Gleam from Gengar.

The thing is though, Ash doesn't think like that. We've seen Ash for over 20 years and he has some very obvious flaws, which include getting overwhelmed by a tactically superior opponent at the start as we have seen so many times, including the last few battles against Raihan, Steven etc. It often takes him time to find his footing in the battle and I think the intensity shown by Cynthia caught him off-guard. What he does have is very deep bonds with his Pokémon, and he trusts them to come through no matter the odds. That was the crux of the conflict between Ash and Paul, and Paul himself acknowledged that Ash can bring out a Pokémon's inner strength. And Ash did prevail over him, despite Paul being a superior trainer in other aspects, lending credence to his style. And then in the next match, he was able to get Sceptile to wake up and defeat the till then, undefeated Darkrai. Sceptile alone might not have been as strong as Darkrai but it was it's deep bond with Ash that spanned two whole regions, including overcoming it's own crisis post-heartbreak, that allowed it to push itself and do the unthinkable back then.

Perhaps Ash hasn't had enough time with Dragonite to push their bond as deep, even though Dragonite clearly adores him, and that's a fair criticism of Ash's Journey team since they are entirely new except for Pikachu. Regardless, that is the way Ash battles and I don't expect him to be changing his style at this point. Both you and I want to see the smart, strategic Ash who dominates battles and outsmarts his opponents but for all the arguments of Ash's experience in battling, most of the competitors here have been battling since before he was even born (heck, Ash hasn't even been battling for a year lol but lets ignore the messed up timeline) so it makes sense that Ash can't beat them in smarts, the way he does so is through his bonds and innovative strategies. Yes, "Aim for the Horn" and "Thunder Armour" don't make sense but that's Ash, the gift that he has amongst all the competitors here is that he too has the ability to catch them offguard. The Raihan and Steven battle had many flaws and I don't personally like the way both of them finished, but we did see Gmax Gengar sucking in the sandstorm to get rid of it or Pikachu trapping Cradily by its own tentacles with Electroweb.

As for the Bonds part, Ash is definitely a special trainer, being the "Chosen one", having a unique Aura like Sir Aaron etc among other things and phenomenon like Ash-Greninja and his connection with Lucario are definitely not natural. Yes, it's the protagonist treatment and often an excuse for plot armour/DEM or for him to punch way above his weight but at the end of the day, the facts are facts. I'm still not prepared to see Mega Garchomp fall to Mega Lucario but at the end of the day, that will happen and I'll have to accept that, even though I may vehemently disagree with the way it came about.

I apologise over the long post but ultimately, you are probably absolutely right that Ash could have done better there, and the criticism is valid too. The thing is that it's just not in Ash's nature to do so as I've mentioned in my post, that's just not his style of battling. He isn't thinking one step, or even four, ahead of the opponent. He is thinking outside the box in an attempt to completely catch his opponent off-guard and make them lose their focus, and relies on his emotions and bonds to bail him out of tough situations. That's Ash for me, or atleast what I've seen of him for 20+ years. The writing is often not consistent, granted, but atleast for this moment, I think it's truly in character for him to do what he did, even if it's not the right choice.

Anyway, here's hoping for a cracking next episode!
 

lemoncatpower

Cynical Optimist
Hmm, this battle is something, has its up and downs so far.

Although it is Pokemon, I still like to be in the realm of possibility within that universe, and this battle is switching from taking me out of that realm and then pulling me back in, but just barely. I just have a hard time accepting that Ash could ever take out multiple pokemon of Cynthia's, let alone beat her in battle, but I have to suspend disbelief and just go with it at this point to enjoy the nicely animated battle that they worked so hard on.
 
People are criticizing an episode and me not likey"

Please. Ash conveniently forgetting Spiritomb has Sucker Punch to ensure Cynthia gets a win, and then conveniently forgetting to switch out Dragonite so Cynthia gets another win are not minor things, no matter how much you try to dismiss it
This

Soniman seems to have an agenda against those who criticize Journeys, he/she always does the same thing and it's gets annoying

About Cynthia you're right, that's why I rate the EP 6/10, she shone more for Ash's failures than anything else and not for doing super impressive things like some people would have you believe (it wasn't on this forum, it was elsewhere, here people have not behaved so strangely with cynthia ). That's why I think Ash vs Cynthia will hardly enter the Top 4 Ash Battle...

But who knows?
I'm hyped for Togekiss Dinamax even though it seems like an unpopular opinion
. I think it's something quite original that Cynthia can do, the whole spiritomb thing was great but it feels very Tobias -reference tbh.
 
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DayQuil95

Well-Known Member
Ash doesn’t switch out Dragonite -> “Grrr dumb Ash why wouldn’t you recall a sleeping Pokémon”

Ash switches out Dragonite and uses her later, but she loses because she’s asleep -> “Grr dumb Ash he should’ve tried to wake up Dragonite”

Ash switches out Dragonite and uses her later, and she immediately wakes up -> “Grr dumb Ash is only reaching the finals because of plot armor”

Let’s be honest: The moment Hypnosis was used it was clear that people will start criticizing the battle, no matter which scenario happens.

Edit: Besides, even in the games there is no perfect way to deal with Sleep besides the usage of items. Sometimes it’s better to hope that the Pokémon wakes up, sometimes it’s better to make the switch -> it’s RNG luck really.

Ash refusing to switch out Goodra against Slurpuff and Bisharp are much worse decisions, because it was apparent that his intended tactics are clearly not working. With sleep, it’s really a case of hindsight is 20/20.
People when Ash recalls Dragonite and sends it back against Roserade, only for Cynthia to switch for Garchomp and blast it back into being a Dratini.
 

Joltik-Kid

Careful? Where's the fun in that?
Ash doesn’t switch out Dragonite -> “Grrr dumb Ash why wouldn’t you recall a sleeping Pokémon”
If it's not waking up and your risking it getting taken out not knowing if you'll need it later, you have to switch it out.
Ash switches out Dragonite and uses her later, but she loses because she’s asleep -> “Grr dumb Ash he should’ve tried to wake up Dragonite”
If he picks the match up correctly, Dragonite shouldn't get unnecessarily knocked out. At least not in sleep. Roserade/Gastrodon would have been good opportunities had Ash planned like that.
Ash switches out Dragonite and uses her later, and she immediately wakes up -> “Grr dumb Ash is only reaching the finals because of plot armor”
That's actually what can happen in the game, sleep isn't freeze. It's a mechanic with a set number of turns in which the earliest it can wake up is immediately. The latest being 3 turns, meaning Dragonite likely would have woken up if Ash had returned it after the 2nd Dream Eater, when it came back out.
 

DayQuil95

Well-Known Member
In an alternate universe, Ash managed to set up 3 DDs with Dragonite and then sweep through Cynthia's team like butter... Until Togekiss because anime writers suck at giving dragons movesets, and the only thing that Ash's Dragonite has to defend itself against fairy-types is Hurricane, which isn't boosted by DD.

Like seriously, first Iris' Haxorus with that moveset, then Ash's Dragonite, what's next? Cynthia's Garchomp with Dragon Claw, Scale Shot, Draco Meteor, and Dig?
 

Joltik-Kid

Careful? Where's the fun in that?
In an alternate universe, Ash managed to set up 3 DDs with Dragonite and then sweep through Cynthia's team like butter... Until Togekiss because anime writers suck at giving dragons movesets, and the only thing that Ash's Dragonite has to defend itself against fairy-types is Hurricane, which isn't boosted by DD.

Like seriously, first Iris' Haxorus with that moveset, then Ash's Dragonite, what's next? Cynthia's Garchomp with Dragon Claw, Scale Shot, Draco Meteor, and Dig?
Ironically Iris's Dragonite with Dragon Rush, Ice Beam, Thunder Punch, and Flamethrower is pretty good. Ash's Dracovish is also kinda okay with Fishious Rend, Ice Fang, ugh Water Gun, and Dragon Rush.

Man they really did Garchomp dirty... it use to have moves like Stone Edge, Flamethrower, and Brick Break
 

Kazuniya

read/watch dungeon meshi
I think this battle has real potential to be one of the top 5 battles in the whole of Pokemon anime. (largely thanks to Cynthia's greatness)
 

DayQuil95

Well-Known Member
Ironically Iris's Dragonite with Dragon Rush, Ice Beam, Thunder Punch, and Flamethrower is pretty good. Ash's Dracovish is also kinda okay with Fishious Rend, Ice Fang, ugh Water Gun, and Dragon Rush.

Man they really did Garchomp dirty... it use to have moves like Stone Edge, Flamethrower, and Brick Break
Yeah, there are a few cases where it's good, but particularly Dragons and Fighting types seem to get the short end of the stick, I mean, most of Ash's fighting types can't even hit ghost types properly in the first place, Sirfetch'd be probably Ash's only fighting-type with a good enough moveset, which is bound to improve with the presumed Leaf Blade.

Lucario: Steel Beam - Aura Sphere - Double Team / Reversal - Bullet Punch. Homeboy got two typings as an offense.

Hawlucha: Karate Chop - High Jump Kick - Flying Press - X Scissor.

Scraggy: Leer - Headbutt - High Jump Kick - Focus Blast.

Pignite: Flame Charge - Flamethrower - Fire Pledge - Brick Break.

Primeape: Thrash - Scratch - Mega Kick - Seismic Toss.

Infernape: Flamethrower - Flare Blitz - Mach Punch - Dig.

You send a Chandelure and every single one of his fighting types are screwed lmao.
 

Joltik-Kid

Careful? Where's the fun in that?
Yeah, there are a few cases where it's good, but particularly Dragons and Fighting types seem to get the short end of the stick, I mean, most of Ash's fighting types can't even hit ghost types properly in the first place, Sirfetch'd be probably Ash's only fighting-type with a good enough moveset, which is bound to improve with the presumed Leaf Blade.

Lucario: Steel Beam - Aura Sphere - Double Team / Reversal - Bullet Punch. Homeboy got two typings as an offense.

Hawlucha: Karate Chop - High Jump Kick - Flying Press - X Scissor.

Scraggy: Leer - Headbutt - High Jump Kick - Focus Blast.

Pignite: Flame Charge - Flamethrower - Fire Pledge - Brick Break.

Primeape: Thrash - Scratch - Mega Kick - Seismic Toss.
Scraggy and Hawlucha got the absolute shortest end of the stick they could have been given, the game has blessed them with great potential for movesets.
Infernape: Flamethrower - Flare Blitz - Mach Punch - Dig.
It actually has Fire Punch as recently as Gengar learning Will-O-Wisp. Not sure what was forgotten, but it's not a big deal.
You send a Chandelure and every single one of his fighting types are screwed lmao.
Infernape just spams Dig, thanks Paul.
 

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
If it's not waking up and your risking it getting taken out not knowing if you'll need it later, you have to switch it out.
Like in the Darkrai battle?
If he picks the match up correctly, Dragonite shouldn't get unnecessarily knocked out. At least not in sleep. Roserade/Gastrodon would have been good opportunities had Ash planned like that.
And then Cynthia switches to Roserade, so Ash has to make another switch? This isn’t the games we’re switches are being punished.
That's actually what can happen in the game, sleep isn't freeze. It's a mechanic with a set number of turns in which the earliest it can wake up is immediately. The latest being 3 turns, meaning Dragonite likely would have woken up if Ash had returned it after the 2nd Dream Eater, when it came back out.
Again, you’re arguing with game mechanics when it’s quite apparent that the same brigade that has been treating this “mistake” as the biggest blunder Ash has ever done would have criticized the writers if Dragonite would’ve immediately woken up after switching.
 
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