The Great Butler
Hush, keep it down
If it's able to provide the community with a way to have a general chat and get quick tips/help (where they would not work on the actual forum)
This is the ideal, I think. Or at least it is in my mind.
If it's able to provide the community with a way to have a general chat and get quick tips/help (where they would not work on the actual forum)
So it's clear that people are worried about cliques on the forums and the potential for Discord to make those worse. What should we do about it? icomeanon6 made a lot of suggestions, and in particular I think removing the #shameless-advertising and #fic-love channels is pretty much a no-brainer. What do people think about splitting the #writing-chat channel like he proposed? Or does anyone else have some suggestions for how we should restructure the Discord channel?
It also looks like some people don't like how the reviewing leaderboard works right now; don't know whether it would be worth it to spin off a topic about that. (I think implementing some kind of system where you can save/bank points, so you can get some reward eventually even if you don't review a ton in any given month, or something that allows you to compete against your own best rather than just the top monthly reviewers, might help address the issues it sounds like people have with it.)
As far as I can tell, the leaderboard seems fine as it is, and even if changes should be made, that decision is ultimately up to Amby. He's running the thread, and it's his project. It's not for us to step in and tell him how to run his show.
That said, as far as banking points go... why? The leaderboard exists to reward activity and engagement. If you aren't as active and engaged as you'd like to be on a given month, or don't have the time, then don't worry. The slate gets wiped clean on the first of every month and everyone starts fresh. I don't know if we're still maintaining the spreadsheets that started the last thread, but if we're not, then maybe Amby or someone else who wants to work with him should do that again. Those had clearly laid out data that allowed participants to track their monthly totals and compare personal bests on a month-to-month basis. Now that we've settled on a more equitable point system, that data should be clearer and more representative of what the actual totals look like. But again, it's up to Amby if that's a thing we bring back or not.
I suppose I should give my two cents here. I really don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into a discussion about one specific thing. So, I'm just going to start out by saying that I'm seeing a lot of talking, and some ideas getting tossed around. But really, it has to start with a mentality change. Especially from those who've been here awhile and "planted their roots," so to speak. I could go into a very long talk about how we've moved into an age of instantaneous gratification, and forums are a bit outdated to suit those desires. People like Discord servers (or similar ideas like Skype or group texts) because the real-time conversations give them that instantaneous gratification. We're all human; we're hardwired to enjoy others' company (with some exceptions/outliers, of course).
I chose to focus on the Discord with this thread since it's been a bone of contention over the past few months and because I think the current situation with it is not bueno. I agree that there are issues with the forum community, though probably not the same ones you see, and working to improve the culture is definitely a good thing. However, I don't think it's very productive to say, "Changing the culture is a more important issue." Like, maybe? But people have been chewing over very similar issues since at least 2004, so I don't expect things to be resolved soon. To me that sounds like a recipe for people grousing a bit, the discussion petering out, and then nothing actually getting done. The fact that the Discord server is not, perhaps, the largest issue facing the forums doesn't mean we should just ignore it until we solve this other large looming issue, just like I'm not going to ignore the fact that the sink's clogged until we solve world hunger. I do think we should try to take steps to make the Discord more in line with the forum culture we'd like to see. But I think we need to try something, even if it turns out to be a bad idea in the end, rather than just quietly letting things carry on as they are because we can't think of a fix that addresses all issues and transforms the board culture in and of itself. I'm choosing to focus on the Discord channel because it's something concrete that can be talked about and that we can put forward some simple, concrete steps towards fixing. Thus: how do we alter the. But before we can even talk about that: Discord--do we even want it? That's where I think we are right now.Firebrand said:There are a lot of misgivings and apprehensions from users both in this thread and the previous one that I don't think are being sufficiently addressed by keeping the conversation focused on how to fix the discord channel.
To me, that sounds like an excellent justification for axing #shameless-advertising. If it is that much more effective to post in the server than the forum thread--and I agree that it is--then it's eminently unfair that people in the Discord server have access to it and other people don't. Especially because several current members couldn't post their stuff on the Discord even if they wanted to, since it's closed.Firebrand said:I'm not sure how I feel about axing #shameless-advertising considering it's far more visible to the more vocal members of our community than the forum thread. And while the idea is of course to move people back to the fourm, I don't think axing the channel and expecting everyone to periodically check the shameless advertising forum thread is actually going to solve that problem, at least not yet. It's clear that people hang out on the discord, while they only check the forum. Your fic is by far more likely to get a little visibility bump if you post your link on the discord than if you post it to a forum thread that... kind of doesn't see a lot of activity. Our goal should be to get that particular forum thread more popular, but just saying "Okay, this is where you advertise new posts now!" is not going to work, not with the forum set up the way it is currently.
It exists! At least, if I'm understanding what you're looking for correctly. But it could definitely stand to be revived.Ambyssin said:At the very least, maybe some sort of "author introduction" type of thread. I know there's a forum for introductions, but maybe having something where people can talk about their writing/reviewing experience and give an idea of what they're looking to get out of posting on the forums? I feel like that existed before in the past and died out; but maybe now's the time to revive it?
This does bring up another concern that I had about the whole thing. Mind you, I'm sure something could be worked out, but the big question then becomes: where do you draw the line, exactly? I probably wouldn't be overhauling the point system, so ultimately setting reward levels would become an arbitrary process. Set the numbers too low, and people could easily make the rewards and, say, overwhelm with requests for said rewards. Make it too high, and then it basically defeats the purpose of doing it in the first place. It'd have to keep getting tweaked.I've always seen the Leaderboard not simply as a way to get people to review a lot. I've always seen it as a way for people on Serebii to get exposure to different fics than they usually read.... For that reason, the idea of "banking reviews" or whatever it was comes across as a little strange, almost as if, and I don't mean to offend anyone by saying this, it's like people are suggesting that they be rewarded for not really doing anything.
But if the aim is to figure out how to properly integrate the server back with the forums, wouldn't the culture tie into it, then? I don't really think I can express it properly. But, like, if we just try to "fix the Discord," what's stopping any potentially contentious issues from spilling over into the Discord server and making things uncomfortable for everyone?I chose to focus on the Discord with this thread since it's been a bone of contention over the past few months and because I think the current situation with it is not bueno. I agree that there are issues with the forum community, though probably not the same ones you see, and working to improve the culture is definitely a good thing. However, I don't think it's very productive to say, "Changing the culture is a more important issue." Like, maybe? But people have been chewing over very similar issues since at least 2004, so I don't expect things to be resolved soon.
I'm going to take a different opinion here. I don't think an advertising thread will really work on the forums right now, period. Speaking frankly, I completely ignored the advertising thread that existed, even while it was stickied on the main page. Even if it got brought back there, I would continue to ignore it. Because, well, it's on the same page as all the most recently-updated stories. Like, what's the point in clicking on that topic to see what's updated when I can scroll down a little bit and see it for myself? To me it seems unnecessary. Speaking personally, doing something to try and liven up a topic like that still won't get me to look at it. It is, by nature, extremely redundant on a forum like this.To me, that sounds like an excellent justification for axing #shameless-advertising. If it is that much more effective to post in the server than the forum thread--and I agree that it is--then it's eminently unfair that people in the Discord server have access to it and other people don't. Especially because several current members couldn't post their stuff on the Discord even if they wanted to, since it's closed.
While saying "no more Discord advertising" doesn't automatically make the advertising thread more visible, I think it's a critical first step towards doing that...
Ah, sorry. I didn't mean to suggest that changes to the forums are unimportant or that we should solely focus on the Discord. Rather, I don't think that we should wait on changes to the forums before looking at how we handle the Discord. There's absolutely nothing wrong with making some changes to the forums as well, and of course they can be done in tandem. I wanted to focus on the Discord with this thread, but if there are any changes that ought to be made on the forums, then of course we can make some there as well. I just hadn't seen any of those suggested, that's all.Ambyssin said:I get what you're saying with wanting to focus on something concrete. It's just that that concrete thing is, technically speaking, off-site... and the big discussion is about how to reintegrate it. Experimenting is fine. But what's stopping us from experimenting with things in tandem, exactly? Like I said before, Discord moves quicker. It's far more real time. Any changes it to it will probably have rapid reactions, whereas changes to the forums will need more time to safely process. That's why I think they need to happen together. That way, if something goes wrong with Discord, we can hit pause, so to speak, and focus on the forums.
That's fair. An advertising thread might never work as well on the forums as on the Discord, and I think that's okay. But I think if advertising on the Discord is preferable, but some people are being actively excluded from using that channel to get the word out about their work, it should be abolished.I'm going to take a different opinion here. I don't think an advertising thread will really work on the forums right now, period. Speaking frankly, I completely ignored the advertising thread that existed, even while it was stickied on the main page. Even if it got brought back there, I would continue to ignore it. Because, well, it's on the same page as all the most recently-updated stories. Like, what's the point in clicking on that topic to see what's updated when I can scroll down a little bit and see it for myself? To me it seems unnecessary. Speaking personally, doing something to try and liven up a topic like that still won't get me to look at it. It is, by nature, extremely redundant on a forum like this.
I chose to focus on the Discord with this thread since it's been a bone of contention over the past few months and because I think the current situation with it is not bueno. I agree that there are issues with the forum community, though probably not the same ones you see, and working to improve the culture is definitely a good thing. However, I don't think it's very productive to say, "Changing the culture is a more important issue." Like, maybe? But people have been chewing over very similar issues since at least 2004, so I don't expect things to be resolved soon. To me that sounds like a recipe for people grousing a bit, the discussion petering out, and then nothing actually getting done
The fact that the Discord server is not, perhaps, the largest issue facing the forums doesn't mean we should just ignore it until we solve this other large looming issue, just like I'm not going to ignore the fact that the sink's clogged until we solve world hunger. I do think we should try to take steps to make the Discord more in line with the forum culture we'd like to see. But I think we need to try something, even if it turns out to be a bad idea in the end, rather than just quietly letting things carry on as they are because we can't think of a fix that addresses all issues and transforms the board culture in and of itself. I'm choosing to focus on the Discord channel because it's something concrete that can be talked about and that we can put forward some simple, concrete steps towards fixing. Thus: how do we alter the. But before we can even talk about that: Discord--do we even want it? That's where I think we are right now.
So, yeah. I'm going to continue to focus on the Discord issue in this thread. Talking about general community improvement is fine, but Discord and how it plays into that is my primary focus with this particular thread. And you can always create another thread to talk about larger issues if you'd like! I definitely don't think it's an unworthy discussion. But with this thread I'm always going to be trying to pass it through the lens of Discord.
To me, that sounds like an excellent justification for axing #shameless-advertising. If it is that much more effective to post in the server than the forum thread--and I agree that it is--then it's eminently unfair that people in the Discord server have access to it and other people don't. Especially because several current members couldn't post their stuff on the Discord even if they wanted to, since it's closed.
While saying "no more Discord advertising" doesn't automatically make the advertising thread more visible, I think it's a critical first step towards doing that. I think it might make more sense to change the advertising thread to more like the old "trailers for your fic" thread, where it's more a literal advertisement for your story that people can browse if they like, rather than having it be something you bump every time you post something new; the board currently doesn't move fast enough to really bury things (possible exception: late December/early January), so people checking the board . The usual PM list functionality can serve to alert people who aren't checking the fanfic board as often that you have a new chapter.
Recently got Serebii Joe's blessing that a fic discord server can remain in harmony with the official one. I still would be in favour of removing #pokemon-gaming and having that sit in #general just so we're not taking away from that server's dedicated channels on the various games.@bobandbill - What are you thinking about where things stand at the moment. I know you mentioned potential conflicts with the main Serbii server; have you figured out whether that's going to be an issue yet?
I'm not treating them as separate entities. The Discord server is one aspect of the forum community, same as e.g. the awards or rules thread. I am focusing on one aspect of the forum community rather than the forum community as a whole with this thread. The point of this thread is to determine what people want done with it. To me it looks like people want it brought back as an official part of the forums, but with some changes.I'm not sure why you're reframing the discussion to look at the Discord and the forum as separate entities now. I thought the whole point of this thread was to bring them back into one cohesive thing, where we communicate across the platforms as seamlessly as those two platforms allow.
I disagree that the issues on the forums largely arise from the Discord. I think they've been present in the community since a long time before it was even conceived of. Ultimately, I don't see either of us changing our positions on this, so I'll just say one last time: I don't think that trying to improve forum culture is unimportant or should be ignored. However, in the absence of any idea of how to go about doing that that would preclude bringing the Discord back, I'd like to think of ways of improving the Discord, because I do think that bringing it back officially would be a benefit to the forums overall, or at least better than the situation that we have now. Of course you have a right to your opinions, and no one has ever said that you don't; I just disagree with them, as is also my right.Firebrand said:The reason I continue to point to the issues in our forum culture is because, and I no longer see the point in not putting it bluntly, the issues with the forum largely arise from the culture that has sprung up on the Discord, and the entire reason the Discord was separated in the first place is because that culture was determined to be detrimental to the forum as a whole, and it was quarantined.
No, I got that you don't see a viable replacement for it at this point in time. I just see trying to reduce some of the advantage that Discord regulars have over people who aren't on the channel as more important than having a place for people to advertise their fics. Serebii hasn't had one for 99% of its existence, after all, and people got along just fine without it; there are other ways of notifying people about updates or getting new eyes on your story. I don't really consider it a core part of the forum functionality? On the other hand, the disparity between the attention gotten by Discord members vs those who aren't on the server has already caused significant drama, so I think eliminating a potential source of that is all to the good. Trying to make the advertising thread more useful/interesting to draw more attention to it is all to the good, but if we axe the channel and still no one uses the updated/new thread? No great loss, imo. This isn't something where I see much benefit in phasing it out slowly.Firebrand said:Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough in my last post, but I thought I took pains to say that this is not a viable solution right now. Like Amby said, there's no point in using that thread when you can just glance down the page to see what's new. The original point of that thread was to allow for easy cross-posting to advertise new updates on the Serebii Fanfiction tumblr that never really took off. With that now defunct, there's no reason to post in that thread anymore, but I think it's possible to take the concept in a different direction. In the #shameless-advertising channel, I've seen some members posting a short one/two sentence blurb about their updates, and I think an advertising thread could adopt an approach like that, kind of like the trailers thread. Not only would the thread let other users know you've updated, it could also hook potential new readers if the plot of the current chapter and encourage them to read from the beginning to see how it works in context. That being said, I think it's a little too early to be axing the #shameless-advertising channel, because then people won't bother advertising at all. I think the best way to do it is to start encouraging people who advertise in the discord to also advertise in an appropriate thread on the forum, just to get into the habit. If it seems like an advertising thread has caught on and enough people are using it, then we can phase out the advertising channel.
bobandbill said:Recently got Serebii Joe's blessing that a fic discord server can remain in harmony with the official one. I still would be in favour of removing #pokemon-gaming and having that sit in #general just so we're not taking away from that server's dedicated channels on the various games.