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Serperior Discussion

Mye

Someone has to win..
Decided to put this up, as there was a decent sized (and pretty good) debate about which tier Serperior will/should be in once it gets its Hidden Ability, Contrary. For anyone unfamiliar about the snake, here's a brief bio:



Base stats: 75 HP / 75 Attack / 95 Defense / 75 Special Attack / 95 Special Defense / 113 Speed

Abilities:
Overgrow: When HP is below 1/3rd its maximum, power of Grass-type moves is increased by 50%.
Hidden Ability:
Contrary: Moves used on the Pokémon that raise stats lower the stats, while the moves that lower the stats raise the stat

Usable Movepool (Bold indicates STAB):

Growth
Coil
Calm Mind
Swords Dance
Substitute
Leech Seed
Leaf Blade
Leaf Storm
Giga Drain
Energy Ball

Toxic
Taunt
Reflect
Light Screen
Dragon Tail
Dragon Pulse
Hidden Power
Glare
Aqua Tail
Knock Off
Synthesis

Discuss.
 
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Vern

Why not both?
Okay, I was probably gonna make this eventually (since everybody keeps talking about it in the question thread). I'm no competitive battler, but I doubt Serperior is gonna stay in the NU after contrary is released.
 

MetalSonic

Orderan' Defendan'
ru saying my banded serperior isnt useable...

Yo though, an ability like Contrary is always subject to hype. It has Leaf Storm, Dragon Pulse and what, a Hidden Power for a usual set? Maybe Taunt or Synthesis?

Deff not something to rule out if it gets enough boostin goin down but its coverage seems pretty sub
 
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Soperman

The One and Only
Obviously, the issue here is going to be Leaf Storm. Once Serperior uses even just 1 Leaf Storm, it becomes way more powerful. After two or three, it could be game over. Even resistance won't help much when you have 900Special Attack
Of course, this is assuming it can even set up Leaf Storm. It's fast, but several pokemon out speed it and I'm not sure it can survive too many hits (too lazy to calculate damage).
 

Aeon™

Rock Ultimate
Obviously, the issue here is going to be Leaf Storm. Once Serperior uses even just 1 Leaf Storm, it becomes way more powerful. After two or three, it could be game over. Even resistance won't help much when you have 900Special Attack
Of course, this is assuming it can even set up Leaf Storm. It's fast, but several pokemon out speed it and I'm not sure it can survive too many hits (too lazy to calculate damage).
We were talking about this in the other thread, but Serperior actually outspeeds most pokemon in OU, and it has decent coverage. Calcs won't copy and paste right lol, but it can OHKO rotom-w unboosted and not care about any of it's attacks except burn damage on top of LO, but you could probably just run synthesis or something in the last moveslot cause I can only think of three attacks. Doing that would get you a +2 boost. Now lets say you opponent switches out because your opponent is smart. You use leafstorm anyways, and now have a +2 boost. Originally I thought about HP Ice for Lando and stuff, but at +2 Leaf Storm OHKO's every landorus-T set. Choice scarf will be outspeeding you, but that's another issue.

I hadn't really though about this much until now, but apparently +2 Serperior can KO a lot of the tier. The hard part imo is choosing a Hidden Power because that'll likely be your third move. Maybe Ground for Char-X and Heatran.
 
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Ryuken

Steel User
I do not know how to feel about Serperior.
On one side It can spam Leaf Storm to it's hearts content and get a +2, Its fast enough to outspeed some checks and beat them after +2, and can even 2HKO Chansey at +6 (Assuming it is life orb).
However, I have serious doubts it will perform well in OU, mainly because of all the pokemon it has to watch out in the tier.
Mamoswine, Choice Scarf Lando-T, Mega-Metagross, Heatran, M-Loppuny/M-Beedrill (Not really relevant but still found sometimes), Sp.def Ferrothorn, Greninja (Lol), M-Pinsir, M-Altaria, and most importantly, Bird Spam.
I mean sure, dropping Leaf Storms is nice, but if Serperior will be scared out anyway after "setting up" other pokemon can do easily do a better job (Latios, M-Sceptile).
It also has a pretty bad movepool, and it needs HP fire to go pass Scizor and Ferro, but it gets instantly walled by Heatran. It can run HP ground as well, but it looses to the previous checks.
It's easily revenge killed if not invested in bulk, but can't have the luxury of running anything but 252/252.
Not to mention that since Leaf Storm is it's only way to set up and +0 Serperios offers almost no offensive presence, (Compared to pokemon that have similar roles in the tier) it is extremely predictable.
You can use it as a random pivot trying to scare things of, but again, other pokemon can do the job.

Probably the bigger point would be, If Serperios can't really stay in for long, why use it over M-Sceptile?
 

Divine Retribution

Master of the freak show
It might end up being a bit of an anti-meta Pokemon, but its stats are just all around garbage and Contrary Leaf Storm is getting waaaaay overhyped. The first Leaf Storm is going to be laughably weak and 75/95/95 isn't too frail but it still won't let it take any significant hits. People keep saying "but once it gets set up, it's so dangerous!", but that's true of literally any setup sweeper. Zangoose 2HKOs the entire game after a Sword's Dance, does that make it OU viable?
 

phanpycross

God-king
I think serperior is gonna be more solid than people expect tbh, it's speed tier is downright godly, it's defensive typing is pretty good all thing considered, and with giga-drain/synthesis it has semireliable recovery.
 

Aeon™

Rock Ultimate
I do not know how to feel about Serperior.
On one side It can spam Leaf Storm to it's hearts content and get a +2, Its fast enough to outspeed some checks and beat them after +2, and can even 2HKO Chansey at +6 (Assuming it is life orb).
However, I have serious doubts it will perform well in OU, mainly because of all the pokemon it has to watch out in the tier.
Mamoswine, Choice Scarf Lando-T, Mega-Metagross, Heatran, M-Loppuny/M-Beedrill (Not really relevant but still found sometimes), Sp.def Ferrothorn, Greninja (Lol), M-Pinsir, M-Altaria, and most importantly, Bird Spam.
I mean sure, dropping Leaf Storms is nice, but if Serperior will be scared out anyway after "setting up" other pokemon can do easily do a better job (Latios, M-Sceptile).
It also has a pretty bad movepool, and it needs HP fire to go pass Scizor and Ferro, but it gets instantly walled by Heatran. It can run HP ground as well, but it looses to the previous checks.
It's easily revenge killed if not invested in bulk, but can't have the luxury of running anything but 252/252.
Not to mention that since Leaf Storm is it's only way to set up and +0 Serperios offers almost no offensive presence, (Compared to pokemon that have similar roles in the tier) it is extremely predictable.
You can use it as a random pivot trying to scare things of, but again, other pokemon can do the job.

Probably the bigger point would be, If Serperios can't really stay in for long, why use it over M-Sceptile?
There's actually an excellent reason to use it over Mega Sceptile. It doesn't take up a mega slot. You'd have the ability to run Serperior and a Mega. AS for some of the pokemon you mentioned. I put what I'm showing with the calcs underneath

252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 498-588 (138.7 - 163.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 178-210 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 268-316 (69.6 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 153-181 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Mamoswine - Can't switch in, if you have rocks up sash is broken and you KO
Scarf Lando-T - Loses a fair chunk of HP switching in and has no way of recovery other than wishpassing or healing wish
Heatran - if you leaf storm on the switch you do 7 - 8% and get a +2 boost, then hit with HP ground. Best case scenario you already have like 25% prior damage on it and KO easy. Worst case scenario you can cripple it for a second win condition's sweep. Any other heatran should be KO'd by HP ground, except scarf would outspeed I guess.
Mega Lopunny - Loses a fair amount of health switching in

Serperior can't really do anything to the other pokemon you mentioned, like Mega Metagross, Mega Pinsir, Ferrothorn, or Mega Altaria. The main offender of Bird Spam in OU is Talonflame, and Serperior obviously couldn't do anything to that anyways.
 

Eaglehawk

Banned
That thing is staying RU. It's only other form of coverage are HP Fire and Dragon Pulse. Furthermore, there are a lot of bulky Pokemon in RU that can take a hit from it and 2HKO it.
 

Ryuken

Steel User
There's actually an excellent reason to use it over Mega Sceptile. It doesn't take up a mega slot. You'd have the ability to run Serperior and a Mega. AS for some of the pokemon you mentioned. I put what I'm showing with the calcs underneath

252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 498-588 (138.7 - 163.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 178-210 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 268-316 (69.6 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 153-181 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Mamoswine - Can't switch in, if you have rocks up sash is broken and you KO
Scarf Lando-T - Loses a fair chunk of HP switching in and has no way of recovery other than wishpassing or healing wish
Heatran - if you leaf storm on the switch you do 7 - 8% and get a +2 boost, then hit with HP ground. Best case scenario you already have like 25% prior damage on it and KO easy. Worst case scenario you can cripple it for a second win condition's sweep. Any other heatran should be KO'd by HP ground, except scarf would outspeed I guess.
Mega Lopunny - Loses a fair amount of health switching in

Serperior can't really do anything to the other pokemon you mentioned, like Mega Metagross, Mega Pinsir, Ferrothorn, or Mega Altaria. The main offender of Bird Spam in OU is Talonflame, and Serperior obviously couldn't do anything to that anyways.
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 324-382 (101.5 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 278-329 (102.5 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Roserade Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 348-411 (90.1 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

If Serperior isn't really going to stay in anyway and abuse it's contrary ability, It is highly outclassed by other grass types, even Roserade hits Heatran harder.

Also, considering life orb (Which is pretty much the only viable item as serperior has really poor special attack) Hetran still beats HP Ground Serperios 1v1 because of lava plume + life orb recoil unless you manage to get two consecutive high damage rolls (But we are factoring luck at this point).

The biggest issue with Serperior is the trouble it has abusing it's ability. If Serperior can not properly stay in and can only spam Leaf Storm for one turn then you are better of with another grass type.
It just doesn't has the stats or the move pool to pull of a consistent sweep.
And even if it doesn't take up a mega slot, I hardly see anyone giving a Lati or Rotom slot for it.
 

Mr. Reloaded

An enigma
Saying this thing will have a use in OU or even rise there is stretching it, as stated above it'll have problems even getting off Leaf Storms without getting KO'd in the process.

I know I said Contrary is a gimmick in another thread and thinking about it I could be wrong, but Serperior still isn't gonna fit on OU team.

If anything it'll go RU at best I really don't see it getting banned there.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
Saying this thing will have a use in OU or even rise there is stretching it, as stated above it'll have problems even getting off Leaf Storms without getting KO'd in the process.

I know I said Contrary is a gimmick in another thread and thinking about it I could be wrong, but Serperior still isn't gonna fit on OU team.

If anything it'll go RU at best I really don't see it getting banned there.
Saying contary is a gimmick is kinda a joke , anything that's boosting +2 off a STAB Leaf Storm with 113 Speed shouldn't be taken lightly in any tier. The only reason why Malamar didn't become super popular was because Superpower wasn't STAB and it's Speed is slow Serperior is the opposite of both of those. I'm not saying it's going to take OU by storm, it's certainly going to be viable and have it's own niche.

It can surely fit on an OU team, Slow Volt-Turn is a natural fit for it along with Rotom-W/Lando-T being it's best partners. I love how it's showing Roserade which doesn't get a +2 boost from using it's best stab move Ryuken certainly forgot to mention the boosts after using Serperior while after one leaf storm that Roserade is set up bait. With a speed tier that's certainly top class so it's only fearing Choice Scarf mons and priorty which is handled by the two Pokemon i mentioned above . Once it hits leaf storm it can certainly sweep teams in OU, I would run HP Fire as hitting Ferro and other steels is more important than hitting just Heatran.
 

Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
I think RU at best is definitely underselling how good Contrary is for Serperior. I honestly don't see this thing being OU but even coming off of that weak SpAtt, +2 Leaf Storm hurts. From what I've seen, Serperior will be one of the best things in RU at worst and has already been discussed as a likely suspect candidate there (after Mega Shark oh wait Mega Shark is already gone). There's stuff in the tier that can handle it (Fletchinder, Golbat, Amoonguss, AV Drapion, Scarf Moltres), but even stuff like AV Escavalier can't switch in to Leaf Storm without losing to HP Fire next turn.

Also:

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Cresselia: 142-168 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Cresselia: 281-331 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Cresselia, one of the bulkiest most threatening walls in the tier, risks getting 2HKO'ed by Serperior with Stealth Rock up. And then you've got a +4 Serperior so have fun with that if you lack Fletchinder or Scarf Moltres.

That movepool is very lacking, sure, and it's definitely getting overhyped like most things do, but Contrary Serperior is not a joke and the ability is definitely going to give it some much needed relevance above NU. Obviously being a Grass type doesn't do it a lot of favors offensively and defensively, and relying on Hidden Power for coverage isn't ideal, but I think Serperior has some potential even if it's just a niche.
 
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XXD17

Draco rex
Saying contary is a gimmick is kinda a joke , anything that's boosting +2 off a STAB Leaf Storm with 113 Speed shouldn't be taken lightly in any tier. The only reason why Malamar didn't become super popular was because Superpower wasn't STAB and it's Speed is slow Serperior is the opposite of both of those. I'm not saying it's going to take OU by storm, it's certainly going to be viable and have it's own niche.

It can surely fit on an OU team, Slow Volt-Turn is a natural fit for it along with Rotom-W/Lando-T being it's best partners. I love how it's showing Roserade which doesn't get a +2 boost from using it's best stab move Ryuken certainly forgot to mention the boosts after using Serperior while after one leaf storm that Roserade is set up bait. With a speed tier that's certainly top class so it's only fearing Choice Scarf mons and priorty which is handled by the two Pokemon i mentioned above . Once it hits leaf storm it can certainly sweep teams in OU, I would run HP Fire as hitting Ferro and other steels is more important than hitting just Heatran.
With greninja being suspect tested, I see serp having a very slight chance in OU, but the threat of talonflame is too much for a setup sweeper with its typing and no priority...the best I can see serp as is a late game sweeper once the two biggest glaring threats (t-flame and heatran) are dealt with first..Heatran is not too hard to remove but dealing with t-flame is trickier without sacrifice...with this, defensively oriented rotom wash or zapdos is almost a requirement as a team member...but you can always rely on a lot of para support as long as you can deal with priority in other ways...I can really see serp in UU though where the only counter I can see is AV sap sipper goodra and life orb noivern as a check...if not UU, then I can definitely see serp starring in RU...just like delphox! At least it will be better than where it is at right now...
 
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Vern

Why not both?
I definitely think serp is UU viable, due to the fact that things like Talonflame and Heatran are not present in the tier. The speed and considerable power he packs after leaf storm is impressive. If he's in UU, I'm perfectly happy.
 

Prakhar

Normal: The abnormal
Serperior is not viable in OU with stuff like birdspam, heatran, mega metagross, heracross, etc.

It is not even viable in UU with stuff like aerodactyl, altaria, mega amphy, arcanine, beedrill, chandelure, darmanitan,etc.

In RU, it faces Abomasnow, amoonguss, braviary, bronzong, cobalion, delphox, doublade, dragalge, drapion,etc running wild!

It will still sit in NU...
 

Divine Retribution

Master of the freak show
Serperior is not viable in OU with stuff like birdspam, heatran, mega metagross, heracross, etc.

It is not even viable in UU with stuff like aerodactyl, altaria, mega amphy, arcanine, beedrill, chandelure, darmanitan,etc.

In RU, it faces Abomasnow, amoonguss, braviary, bronzong, cobalion, delphox, doublade, dragalge, drapion,etc running wild!

It will still sit in NU...

Mkaaay while I agree with your basic point that this thing isn't viable, listing its checks isn't what proves it's not viable. After all I can say Heatran isn't viable in OU because of Conkeldurr, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Azumarill, Garchomp, Keldeo, Heracross, Slowbro, Terrakion, and Landorus, it isn't viable in UU because of Blissey, Arcanine, Blastoise, Darmanitan, Hippowdon, Infernape, Kingdra, Swampert, and Suicune, it isn't viable in RU because of Dugtrio, Gallade, Rhyperior, Hitmonlee, Gastrodon, Cresselia, and Sharpedo, and it's not even viable in NU because of Hariyama, Gorebyss, Lanturn, Piloswine, Regirock, Seismitoad, and Sawk, therefore Heatran should be PU.
 

Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
In RU, it faces Abomasnow, amoonguss, braviary, bronzong, cobalion, delphox, doublade, dragalge, drapion,etc running wild!
Of those listed only Amoonguss, Bronzong, Drapion and some variants of Braviary actually can consistently check/counter it. Everything else listed can't switch into Leaf Storm without getting KO'ed by HP Fire/Dragon Pulse or even another Leaf Storm on the next turn. Delphox can switch in too, but only if it's Scarfed or else it runs an extremely high risk of losing (two min rolls of Leaf Storm leaves Delphox with less than 2% left) and leaves you with a +4 Serperior to deal with. It's not quite as simple as "this thing resists Grass so it beats Serperior with no problems." This applies to some of the OU and UU Pokemon you listed too, but all I'm going to say is that it's far from unviable in RU.
 
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Mye

Someone has to win..
As much as it pains me to say it, I actually have to agree with psynergy here. While serperior's stats and movepool are pretty horrible (even for a grass type, seriously, it's one of the few fully evolved ones WITHOUT A SLEEP INDUCING MOVE) the tiers themselves are set up in such an odd way right now as to make it more viable in UU than in both OU and RU right now. Bulky waters like milotic, (mega) swampert, blastoise, and suicune are featured on almost every team, and nothing in that tier barring bronzong (who is never used due to having the offensive presence of a tin can) can resist the combination of dragon pulse/hp-ground/leaf storm. While there are plenty of things that can revenge kill it (crobat/yanmega/scarfers) the fact this thing can force people to switch out 30% of their defensive cores alone is going to be enough reason for people to be using it in UU. Whether it'll be used in RU or OU, I both doubt and don't really care. Much like Shedinja though, and how it was both NU and Ubers usable, I expect this thing to be NU/RU with almost all its "action" happening in the UU tier.
 
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